JeffSjo

Hiya waysider, That's what I like about the one that revealed that to him PFAL was the Word of God and then shared how he got this from understand the intent and content of the class. If I hadn't read it with my own eyes I wouldn't have freakin believed it.

WARNING- 2 CENTS ALERT I've seemed to come up a better way [1] to respond to the original question on this thread.... sooo here goes. I believe that whether or not the snowstorm happened Wierwille royally (Didn't he say "Royal household" anyway) screwed things up. The only thing that the snowstorm truth (or not) would help me decide is WHAT KIND OF man he was at heart. (added in editing) [1] I mean a better way for ME to respond to the original question, that's all.

I'm not sure how you mean, "Boy is that rich! " What The Hey. It is certainly not how I'd refer to it if I was close to sexual abuse victims, or any of the ones who committed suicide, or any of the ones who fell into other forms of self destruction in their despair. I wouldn't refer to it like you did here if I was pressed to. I don't even know any of these victims, but frankly, because of the way I use "boy is that rich", the way you seem to employ it angers me. Those people who reached for him like the woman did to Christ should have been taught better by Wierwille himself. He seems to have gotten what he wanted. He was in control.

"A mathematical exactness and a scientific delusion." No, wait, if he had said that he wouldn't have been lying.

That reminds me George. I remember him saying something like,"People acuse us of eros love, but at the way we love with agape love." I know it's not a direct quote, but even just summarized it is a vile misdirection and cover-up too.

When I look at the new pic Ham, I think of Michelangelo's Sistene Chapel. The likeness with the man and God reaching for each other makes me smile too. but it's a different smile.

Dear Kimberly, Thanks for asking so plainly, it makes answering you very simple. These verses that I've covered apply directly to anger that leads to mental abuse. I've reproved my former splinter group leader with them, and his goons too. But when it was all said and done they refused to give up how they despised not just me, but how they learned from TWI that such abuse was an acceptible method of controling anyone who did not automatically fall in line and fall at the feet of my splinter group leader. Heck, a verse that he often quoted was the one about needing to "kiss the son, lest he gets angy at you.... etc. He thought that he had the right to treat people badly if they didn't submit to his will. And because of his effective method of leading people he showed my wife that it was o.k. to hate me for the gospel's sake. Why, they did a good job of backing up all their actions with one scripture or another. But I believe that at it's root, my former splinter group doctrines only served to glorify the leader and bring my friends into a cruel and abusive subjegation where they weren't allowed to think for themselves. They would be abused whenever they showed any signs of challenging the twisted and cruel doctrine that this supposed shepherd fed his flock with. Their doctrines despite how many scriptures they quoted were in reality- antiChrist. But all that being set aside, I believe these verses as far as being commandments of the Lord should guide how we think of any brother in Christ. I think that when believers are cruel and hypercritical of a brother that the Lord will hold them accountable. Even Paul's harshest treatment of a brother he makes very plain is only done in order to help restore them to a good place in their lives. For any Christian leader who thinks that they can call a brother a child of the devil and beat them into submission they are decieving themselves. They think that they are beating the devil, but they only commit acts that anger God. And without chastisement I think that Biblically speaking, they cannot become forgiven themselves until they recognize that in truth, they are dumb bastards. But with it being fairly common in human nature to despise someone with which we happen to have a serious disagreement with I know that these verses apply just as much to the forums at the greasespot for the ones who believe in Christ as they do in any other place in our lives. I hope that at the least they serve as food for thought. I hope that I answered you questioning Kimberly. :) (edited for grammar) (added in editing) P.S. This isn't even the most challenging of HIS commandments, but is challenging for me at times, and I have sinned too. How about loving our enemies, and not just our bretheren. Shesh, the commandment that this thread is about amounts to spiritual baby food. Lest we, "bite and devour one another." If this is too challenging for Christian leaders, they don't stand a snowball's chance in you-know-what.

I've felt the still of leadership that despised people in order to maintain control of the group. In my former splinter group the despise and belittle reflex was just as natural to the leader as the blink or breath reflex is to most of us. And he taught his goons how to do it as he became more confident in his complete domination of the goons. _____________________________________________________________________ Mt 5:21,22 (Lamsa version) You have heard that said to those who were before you, You shall not kill, and whoever kills is guilty before the court. But I say to you that whoever becomes angry with his brother for no reason is guilty before the court [1]; and whoever whoever should say to his brother, Raca [2](which means, I spit on you) id guilty before the congregation[3]; and whoever says to his brother, you are effeminate[4], is condemned to hellfire[5]. [1] Bullinger lists this court as the council of three in the local synagogue. This is the least amount of trouble to be in, it gets worse. Note that undeserved anger is something the Lord promises will be judged. [2] Raca - Aramaic for a worse type of despising a brother. "I spit on you indicates" expressing active contempt. Bullinger defines it thus- a contemptuous interjection, expressing the emotion or scorn of a disdainful mind. Both Wierwille and my former splinter group leader seemed to do this on a regular basis, I personally vouch that my splinter group leader did this regularly. [3] Bullinger lists this as the supreme national court, the Sanhedron for the first century Jews. This represents being accountable to a higher authority than the first and consequently being in bigger trouble. [4] Lamsa says that this is Aramaic for being abnormal or brutish. Bullinger says that in the greek it is the word moros, from which we get moron, this is not like the common usage. It is referring to a birth defect. This is extreem hatred, ie., you are hopeless, faulty, and cannot be fixed you little worm. etc.etc. In the hebrew it is the word; nabal. This is the most perjorative of all the Hebrew words for fool. [5] hellfire, bigger trouble than any, The lord will make them pay, big-time. (all references to what Bullinger said come from my Companion Bible) _____________________________________________________________________________ I had a friend tell me not too long ago that in his opinion Christianity in the U.S.A. has become nasty. I think a basic disobedience to these verses may be responsible. Then there is the TWI habit of calling brothers "seed boys" meaning children of the devil. Now just because Jesus did this to certain folks doesn't mean that when TWI leadership did this to their bretheren that they won't be held accountable, dumb bastards. For any of who might be willing to argue the dispensational reasons that you would discount these verses, I say, bring it on. Then we'll at least give folks a good look at whether the dispensational argument applies. If you can find any verses that directly contradict these I'll change my mind, but I think that I won't. I don't think that despising a brother because of bad doctrine negates the harm to the mentally abused or releases the abuser from accountability before the Lord. these verses basically list abusive behavior in ascending order of the trouble that the abuser will be in.

I really intended to stay out of this thread but as Mike responded to my post in such a direct fashion I feel obliged to give Mike some feedback. I find the conversation between you all very interesting..... well... here goes. YOUR #1 ONE POINT CORRESPONDS VERY NICELY WITH HOW MY POINT #3 WOULD LOOK FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW. YOUR #2 POINT CORRESPONDS VERY NICELY WITH MY POINT #2 YOU ACTUALLY DO BELIEVE THAT THE SNOWSTORM STORY IS REAL AS MY #1 POINT STATES. So even though you say that my list does not represent your logic you seem to be saying that you actually agree with my list if you approach the list from #3 to #1?! IMO you do not just agree with my list, you are actually living it. (edited for grammar and clarity)

Yeah, sure.....o.k. I'll try to get back later. Bye for now.

If you'd just spell out this vast and unseen parallel that you think that you see I may give you some feedback. But your question felt like it was only bait to be taken. p.s. I have only ten minutes left on this computer session of mine.

I think that I probably won't follow your advice either for right now. hehehe

Why do you ask?

According to some... #1 The snowstorm was and the revalation to Wierwille was real... #2 Therefore the PFAL class was the fullfillment of that promise... #3 Therefore the PFAL class is the Word of God... Anyone can hold to this logic I suppose, but even this logic leads to conclusions that contradict parts of PFAL. Wierwille taught that the bible should be our only rule of faith and practice, but to say that our rule of faith and practice should be PFAL is a blatant contradiction of PFAL doctrine. But these views are a logical extension of TWI doctrine as it was practiced. I've heard of many reports where the believers were told to follow leadership even if they were wrong, saying it's o.k., if we're wrong it is on us, not on you. Mike, It is clear to me that you won't go any farther than you were led for now. You are fully committed to Wierwille as the MOG and you believe that his mission entitled him to go places that the ignorant masses (many of us that is) are not entitled to go. I intend to go there anyway.

Good point Bride, As the issue of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene's relationship goes I think of the best virtues possible between a teacher and an apparently unattached follower. She was even with his mother during the crucifiction. Talk about a woman who knew where the rubber met the road..... wow! But as concerning Jesus Christ's relationship with the church, that is another cup of tea altogether. Paul is the one who said in Eph 5:32 (Lamsa version) This is a great mystery; but I speak concerning Christ and the Church. The context of that verse is a marriage relationship. So Paul is the one who compared Christ to a husband and the church to a bride. My old TWI mindset of "We are not the bride, but we are the body" seems stupid to me now. The husband and wife were to become one flesh. Within that analogy, WE ARE BOTH BRIDE AND BODY. This seems to be simplicity itself to me now. But I think that unsound men tend to sexualize both Christ as the head of the body and the simple relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Surely as I can possibly say, Wierwille screwed up the relationship between teacher and student by sexualizing it, and he screwed it up when he refused to consider the plainly stated relationship with Christ and the church. I think that may be because he wanted to be THE MAN. (edited for spelling)

It's really good to hear that things have taken a turn for the good for you Rightsideup. :eusa_clap: I'm glad for your experience regarding how things are now too, but even though it doesn't surprise me I wouldn't call it good news. I agree with you 100% that without public confession and corrective teaching they don't stand a snowball's chance in you know what of being better than they were. Heck, even if they went through those motions they could be liars. But if they won't even go through the motions, I say screw them. (added in editing) Maybe I should have said that they deserve to be considered a bunch of liars and hypocrites who are undeserving to be considered as a reliable source of truth instead. But I didn't edit out the other statement either.

"You're the best" While on one level I think that this is a true statement, it at least implies kindness and support on Wierwille's part. I'm certain that everyone who was bullied or otherwise abused by Wierwille and his chosen kids think that he lied when he said it. (edited for clarity)

"I've already forgotten more of the Word than he'll ever know." hey, hey, hey, I've finally managed to Quote Wierwille. If not an outright lie, it does manage to be both arrogant and revealing.

"What is your definition of sexual relations?" No, wait, that was Bill Clinton. nevermind

Since you believed that Wierwille learned directly from God through the spirit what you say makes sense to me Mike. Since I believe that the best of PFAL has lead me to recognize bad PFAL doctrines and TWI practices I hope that is clear to you also. I think that Wierwille on more than one occasion said things like, "I don't guarantee that everything that I say is God Breathed Word and you should check it for yourself." I don't think that your stand even measures up to Wierwille's lip service to the truth. But I'm fairly certain that Wierwille would have privately been very pleased with your willingness to use his books as your rule of faith and practice. In other words he would have liked to have you around, but wouldn't have wanted you to speak for fear of discrediting his organization with your views. (Edited for grammar)

So Mike, Have you heard what Wierwille did to those who disagreed with his only rule of faith and practice, Wierwille!? Wait a minute, I mean ..... Wierwille according to Darby..... Wierwille according to Bullinger..... Wierwille according to Lamsa..... Wierwille according to Leonard..... Wierwille according to Pillai..... Wierwille according to Roberts..... etc. etc. Was destroying lives biblical according to the God Breathed Word? Or was the God Breathed Word twisted to justify Wierwille destroying lives?

I think that in Wierwille's case, that he was more than happy if he had you thinking well of him and searching for those secrets. I bet people have wasted decades on that particular treadmill. Say what you mean and mean what you say only applied if the decievers wanted to know where you really were coming from in order to counter your influence as it applied to dominance. (added in eding) I'm going to go now. Catch up wit ya later.

gaaack.. nevermind

"Excuse me while I swallow a camel and choke on a gnat"....... No wait, that one was me..... nevermind.

I'm really thankful to look at the back and forth between DWBH and Mike, I was never even close to those types of TWI meetings and for the most part have had to approach these things without any inside info. An important factor to Mike on this thread is that THEY BELIEVE THAT WIERWILLE WAS LEARNING FROM GOD. As with any belief, we are entitled to have them and we have the right to defend them. But I remember hearing that Wierwille once said of somebody who tried to tell him something, and Wierwille said it with a growl mind you, "I've forgotten more of the Bible than he will ever know." Or how about in PFAL where he wouldn't even listen to the person that wanted to tell him that he was wrong while he was with the great theologian. I remember hearing TWI leadership respond to "unknown to me" critics by blasting "red letter Christianity" and implied that TWI critics were not spiritual with the same TWI and Wierwillian style of put down. Never mind that the "RED LETTERS" plainly condemn hating the bretheren by despising them or the red letters concerning sexual immorality. That being said, I have to agree with leafy that some of this info is appalling. But for me, I am not as emotional about it as when I first started to hear these things. I am looking forward to Leafy's posts. As far as personal experience goes I will share how it was for me in my little splinter group and let the rest of you who saw the inner workings of TWI decide whether or not they apply. My splinter group leader viewed evey opinion other than his that I can recall as a spiritual threat. When I was right once he responded by comparing me to a nagging woman. You see, he got to keep his manhood while immasculating me even though he was wrong. My ex-wife thought it was funny. Every TWI person that I know of that visited our little group he put down in front of us but behind their backs. Once, after a second corps family visited our little group, he pointed out how they and their children had the eating manner and demeanor of pigs. But he did this after they left. I guess he didn't want anyone to think highly of anyone but him. Since I believe that my former splinter group leader learned how to do these things in the Way Corps and that he learned these things from watching how Wierwille operated I think that it a huge friggin mistake to think that Wierwille ever agreed with God on anything unless I can document every "jot and tittle" of his words by the scripture. But even then it seems plain to me that he would use these words for his own ends; self-glorification and covering up his perversions being the two that are at the front of my mind right now. I feel no compulsion to master every "jot and tittle" of Wierwille's words in order to criticize them. Wierwille's one liners are not comparable to scripture and I will not treat them so. I'm more than happy to criticize Wierwille's words even if I cannot quote them but remember the gist of them. Some of you guys swallow a camel but choke on gnats as you seek to hold Wierwille's words above reproach. I mean, c'mon, I may not have said Wierwille's words in the right order..... gack....darn gnats. (edited for spelling and grammar) P.S. Raf sent me a video clip that made the moonwalking bear reference very plain. Thanks Raf.