JeffSjo

Yeah, I know that there are paradoxes too sirguessalot. Some seem to want to discredit the scriptures by pointing out the paradoxes. But it seems to me that if I consider the points that seem to be paradoxical within the context of the topic at hand and the context the paradoxes seem to work themselves out. There certainly is a good time for childlike faith and a good time for not being foolish children. I think that it is so cool that God seems to require both mind sets as a part of mature Christianity. Pehaps that in and of itself is paradoxical. But I like how it seems to work for me at times. The fact that it is a paradox in and of itself becomes interesting but perhaps irrellavent because each mindset at the right time is essential. For each situation, where does the rubber meet the road?....perhaps. Perceiving this and seeing God in it is good.

In the old days it was commonly reporteted that the reasearch department knew there was errors in PFAL. I heard these things at street level. But I was not ever near the research department. I wasn't Corps, I wasn't even an advanced class grad. Can anyone else confirm or deny what I percieved as common knowlege in 1983?

I think the thread title speaks for itself. If someone has the time to respond it should be on topic. the thread is too good to be moved to "soap opera" IMO. If someone has time to respond, maybe they shouldn't complain about not having the time. It certainly would be better to stay on topic than to say how good they are and how bad others are. It certainly would be better to stay on topic than to flatter just one, while avoiding the subject. After all, PFAL did have blatant errors, of which any honest person should want to know the truth of, I would think. (added in editing) I remember hearing in the old days that everyone in the research department knew of PFAL errors. If a nobody like me would hear that, then why would anybody deny the errors? I just don't get it! I'll try a new thread and maybe we can move on....sowwee. I started a related thread asking to clarify what I heard at street level in 1983 about doctrinal errors known by the research department at that time. No need for doctrinal discussion on that one IMO, just recollection.

Dear Sirguessalot, Hard to tell? I guess there is certainly a difference between thinking that I'm clear and actually being understood. That is what I like so much about this venue. Words can be savored and consider fully. And there is always an open door for requesting clarification. IMO in real life people often entrench their positions and somehow never manage to clear up misunderstandings. What I like about your posts is most simple. A lot of the things that you say bring scripture to mind. For me that is my reference point. For instance, Paul preached to the Athenians that God was near all of us and free to be sought after. But he considered the end result of seeking Him that fell into the category of a commandment a true turning to him, or repentance if you will. HHHMMM While your posts seem to focus on the human condition more than my intent with this thread the points that you make about the human condition still seem valid and apply to this thread just as much as my posts do. The points about the developemental stages in your first post I'm still enjoying to consider for instance. I find the scriptural references in the Gospels encouraging childlike faith a tremendous consideration. And what the Lord said about God revealing his might to little children instead of the prophets and kings being a good thing to God is an awesome example of facing what kind of faith truly blesses the Father.

Yeah, I caught the birthing reference. It sounds so good when you say it though.

just another example of great sound and imagery Cheranne.....thanx agin!

Dear Sirguessalot, Don't worry one bit about derailing "my" thread as you put it. I've enjoyed reading your posts too. Your style of prose bears more consideration, for me anyhow, than quick responses. BTW, push and breath?....hmm. :blink:

And puuulease....don't guess about mine either. :D

Dear Twinky, I haven't used them. I have no good reason to look down on them either, in other words I'm not against them. There were times in my life more recently where I was sooo down that absolutely any scripture from any source seemed to be speaking directly to my heart. I'm not saying anything at all about the individual source. It's just that the ones that I happened to hear hit me like that. Right now I don't feel the need for a structured format like you are describing either.

Hi Themex, I don't think that I understand everything in your post, but I've got my ears on. JEFF

Aaaawwww Sirguessalot, The Godspeed was cool. All space and grace seems fine too, I guessalittletoo. :B)

I had never heard that Martindale said that. Unfreakinbelievable comes to mind right away. It makes perfect sense if Craig was corrupt and willing to hold on to anyone he could while the ministry crumbled all around him. It makes sense if he was desperately seeking to say anything that may give him the appearance of being able to say with the semblance of authority what TWI should do next. But other than these types of reasonings, I don't think anyone can make sense of what he said. Thank you Themex for supplying the quote.

When I consider what was taught in PFAL in terms of method, one of the very most important things is the discipline of looking at the scriptures without any preconcieved ideas and letting them speak for themself. I do recognize the human condition such that this is an almost impossible task. Preconcieved ideas rule most of our thinking after all. But when the stance that is taken that someone else HAS TO DISPROVE A DOCTRINE THAT IS NOT PLAINLY STATED IN THE BIBLICAL TEXT; IMO this logic tends to only perpetuate error. When someone notes that the scripture doesn't plainly state a doctrine and then decides to re-examine this non-scriptural doctrine it is IMO a much healthier stance. It doesn't take a freakin Einstein to see that the two phrases in question in this thread are used interchangeably. It does take a wise person to see that what they believe is without scriptural credence.

I like this thread Mark. I'm sorry that the ones who hold onto the TWI version of "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of heaven" won't take you up on the offer to rework the issue. My view of these things developed from TWI views to views that resemble yours very closely. I know that saying that is no more a guarantee of truth than anything else, but I find it encouraging nevertheless. You are being fair and patient. I do find it discouraging when folks who've come from a supposed research ministry can't seem to prove the validity of their opinions past saying...... just because! This is where ex-wayfers sometimes reveal how they were susceptible to TWI style manipulation. And TWI leaders sure were willing to impress people with their style (Self- assuredness mixed with whatever intimidation that circumstances would allow IMO) instead of substance. It takes substance to re-work something honestly. (a little added for clarity)

I was considering a couple of records this weekend. One was Exodus 19 that concerns the Biblical record of Mout Sinai. This records a physical manifestaion of immense proportions that moves in one respect past a mere vision. I won't reherse the entire chapter because all of you can look at it if you wish. But this is the record that is referred to in the New Testament as so awsome that even Moses himself shook and trembled. The record itself that the all of Israel that was present was afraid too. But for all it's awsomeness, this event still had God hidden midst all the fire and smokiness of the happening. I thought of a volcano as an item to compare with this. A volcano has the required awesomeness to compare and I have not seen one up close. But like the event records, I'm absolutely sure that I too would have been shaking in my boots. In other scriptures this event is compared to a shaking yet to come for both heaven and earth that the Lord himself will do someday once and for all. No matter how this promised event will actually look when it happens, I'm certain that it will be hard to endure without a lot of, lot of fear and trembling for anybody without exception that sees it, period. _____________ Exodus 33:18-23 and Exodus 34:1-8 cover the record of God showing himself to Moses as the Lord was going away from him so as to not show Moses his face. In ch. 33 vs. 20 God says to Moses, "You cannot see my face; for no man can see my face and live." Considering what happened to the ones' who've been recorded as having seen visions from the Lord, this doesn't surprise me on bit. See God then fall over dead. THUMP! But after the Lord showed himself to Moses in the passing, Moses face showed the reflection of it such that the people could not bear to look Moses in the face. Paul talks about this in the New Testament as an allegory. The Glory that reflected from Moses face was the ministration of the law, given to the children of Israel. But the face of God is reflected in the ministry of Christ. In this comparison, the greater glory is given to Christ. Eternal life being the full reward. But the Law, being represented by God's glory in the passing is still of God, and a lot bigger than me. So why then do some Christains still make their boast in Christ while doing vile and nasty things that go against God, I mean His law? THE LAW IS OF GOD TOO!!! If only Wierwille had not taught the badly misconcieved dispensational doctrine in order to hide his abuses.....SIGGGHHH. ______________ Dear Dr. WearWord, I believe that in Christ and everything else that comes from God, that we may percieve (or see if you will) God. Jesus Christ said to his disciples that if they've seen him, they've seen the Father. Evrybody that lives is free to seek God. How God shows himself is up to him, because we cannot actually see him. But I find this whole mental excersize concerning seeing God, or proving His existence that is currently popular in certain circles to be a little annoying, speaking just for myself, of course. (edited for grammar)

Dear Leafytwiglet, I am willing to apply these points to Wierwille or anyone else without respect of persons. But applying them to myself is something that can hit pretty deeply. And please, feel free to add at your discretion. The fellowship may be profitable. Ps 46, I will read it. Dear Cman, I know what you mean when you consider these visions. However it was for them, it brought them to their knees, that's for sure. Job's experiences were not for the faint of heart either....hmmm.

o.k. Leafy. I'm a slow typer. I hope this one works for you.

On another thread I made the statement that I've only seen bits of God, and the context was worship and hell. The sentiment that I shared was basically that seeing Him equals worshiping Him. But it got me thinking. What biblical records relate the story of someone who has seen God or at least a vision relating to His glory and/or the Glory of Jesus Christ. A few came to mind, and the ones that I list are only the ones that I'm sharing about. Daniel 10:5-9 (I'm using my Lamsa Bible today) I lifted up my eyes and looked and behold, a certain man was clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with glory and majesty. His appearance was peculiar, and there was nothing like it; and his face as the appearance of lightning and his eyes as lamps of fire and his arms and his feet like the color of burnished brass and the sound words like the sound of many armies. And I, Daniel, alone saw this vision; for the men who were with me did not see the vision; but a great fear fell upon them, so they fled because of the fear. Wherefore I was left alone and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me,; and my heart trembled, and there was no strength in me. And when I heard the sound of his words, I fell down upon my face upon the ground. _________ Now this one has me thinking that even a vision of the Lord's glory is enough to put a man down. It is one thing to read about such a thing, and it is something else to experience it. This is how I relate. If I remember the adrenaline rush and the heart pounding from my most intense situations I can relate to this experience perhaps a little. In my case, having a gun shoved under my nose and being directly threatened with it gave me a physical reaction of a huge sort, heck, I'm glad that I didn't pee my pants. And there are teachers who made me react when I was but a child too. I think that we can all react to somehow having something much bigger than us shoved in our face. _________ Revelation 1:17,18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying, fear not; I am the first and the last; I am he who lives and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore. Amen. And I have the keys of death and Sheol. _________ Now John's vision was of the glory of Jesus Christ. It was rich in Jewish priestly imagery and it had the same effect on John as Daniel's vision had on him. I cannot relate to these visions, but I have had experiences in my life that lead me to believe that the reaction to them was genuine and honest. It generally IMO is not the kind of thing that anyone wants to admit to. __________ Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered the Lord, and said, I know that thou canst do all these things, and that no purpose can be hid from thee. Who am I to think thast I can give counsel without knowledge? Therefore thou hast declared to me that I have uttered that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me which I did not know. Hear me, I pray thee, and I will speak; I will ask thee, and declare thou to me; I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees thee. Therefore, I will keep silent, and repent in dust and ashes. ___________ I love thinking about this one. Job had a series of disasters bring him to pretty much nothing. Then he had so-called friends insist on putting him down for it. I'm thinking that by the time these events were done to him that some mix of despair and/or rage would be normal. But for Job, perceiving God totally humbled him....WOW. _____________ Now I am aware that many throughout history require some kind of mystical experience to supposedly validate them and their work no matter the specific religion. But here is a couple of scriptures that I think of when hearing these stories.... 1 John 4:12 No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and his love is perfected in us. or 3 John 11 Our beloved, do not follow that which is evil, but that which is good. He who does good is of God; but he who does evil has not seen God. _____________ So in my mind this one thing is clear, any claims of seeing God need to be followed by truly good behavior otherwise we all have the right to say, "Hey, he's full of it." (added in editing)(edited for grammar and spelling too) p.s. Personally, I'm content to say that I've heard of him.

What else scared them? THE LIGHT, THE LIGHT, HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE LIGHT!!! p.s. Maybe I watched too many vampire movies as a child.

[TWO-CENTS WARNING] I've always considered praising God to be nothing more than to see bits (only bits, mind you) of what he is. It's not so much that he NEEDS my praise. It's just that as opposed to every other man and/or woman who thought that they should be worshipped because THEY THOUGHT that they were awesome, God really is that awsome. It just cannot be helped on my part. And no matter what the other issues, IMO I will end up either willingly on my knees for The Lord Jesus Christ or not willingly. But it is because of what he is, not because he's some self-glorifying sociopath like the other ones that I've met. (edited for spelling) (added in editing)P.S. Hell as it pertains to the fire is for evil. C'mon folks. How about a partial list of the evil things done by humankind.

Recently there has been the inaguration of the first black U.S. president and a huge recall of peanut butter.....A time of mixed emotions for George Washington Carver.

Now before anyone says anything..... I know that first century Christians were killed in large numbers. It is just that they were taught to be harmless as doves. I believe that when Nero blamed them for the burning of Rome it was to cover up his own madness. And when the early Christians were accused of hating mankind what the Roman government was really doing was accusing the Christians of rejecting the many Roman style of culture and it's excesses. What I'm trying to get at before I go that I believe that the early Christians had enough persecutions without having to add the offense of being self-important and offensive on top of everything else. And in the course of history when the Christians persecuted they were just as wicked.

This thread has covered a lot of territory, and I said before, I was jazzed to see in the scriptures the possibilities. I think that in the first century that if the early Christains had tried to chase the pagans out of town that they would have been slaughtered. But I don't think that for them it was just a matter of survival.I think it was a matter of holding onto the concept of them not being better than anyone else. When I think of established Christianity burning pagans at the stake as it has happened several times over several centuries I get just as mad as when my former splinter group deliberately wrecked my life even though in their own twisted manner they covered their actions with scripture references and the appearance of a viable ministry. From my consideration of the scriptures I don't see any other good course besides keeping my Christian beliefs and caring for the welfare of those who don't believe in Christ as much as God who sends the rain on the just and the unjust alike. I agree with Bramble in one respect for sure, that she has the right to speak up when she feels she has been mistreated. And to Geisha, I did not say that you said EEEEWWWWWW to anyone. What I said is that they deserve to get more from us than EEEWWWW. I meant that if for all our scripture quoting or belief in Christ, that if they feel looked down on then all they ARE GETTING FROM US IS EEEWWWW!!! As in a marriage or any other relationship a person has to look at how it was taken, not just what was said. I'm sorry that you feel it was a waste of a day, I'm still jazzed. And Oakspear, I'm glad that you seemed to get my joke about your photo. I'm glad that we had this go-round too. (edited for spelling)

I think that is a real good call potato. :)