JeffSjo

Dear Tzaia, I've had these considerations before, and I suppose that it could go down like that. But after the many, many times that I waited for things to implode I'm not holding my breath anymore. I have considered the perspective that my resistance only served to make Barnard's control over the group and my ex-wife stronger too. Even though I did my best to help keep them from falling farther and farther off the deep end they did get worse. If I knew then what I knew now about TWI I never would have brought my wife-to-be to her first TWI fellowship. And she would have never had to choose a twisted bastard who learned from Wierwille's methods to rule her world. As long as they persist in the foolishness they live in while fooling themselves into thinking that they are strong it seems certain that no amount of logic or competently handled scripture will sway them. Like TWI, they excel at smearing the good guys in order to not confront their own great darkness. But, I suppose that I do need to move on too. Thanks.

Thank you both, Twinky and Potato, You've given me some good things to consider. Dear Jim, I think it was often close to my thinking that TWI used these devices while I was being provoked as a member of my splinter group. I'm thinking that in TWI there was quite a few people who were somewhat familiar with leadership's uses of them through familiarity like yourself. But until now nobody had ever directly confirmed my suspicions that my splinter group might have learned some of these nasty tricks from TWI. While I was in my splinter group it was all too easy for me to think that I was just imagining the possibilities. I know that one of the chief thugs had a history of involvement in TWI security. I'm very glad that you feel free to tell it like you remember it Jim. I wish that there was more people willing to do what you just did. Thank You, JEFF

Well now Geisha, Saying those kinds of things just like you did is tremendously better than any unsubstantiated running off at the mouth about devils, that's for sure. :)

I'm really glad for you and your family that they were there. I'm guessing that if they knew then what we knew now at the Greasespot that they would have been more forceful. I just would not be content anymore to do anything less than persuade anyone I knew to get far, far away from TWI. (edited for spelling)

There is a certain aspect of my life that feels a little raw for me right now. The last couple of days it seems to me that what Barnard and my ex-wife did to me, along with his many toadies and thugs of course, is hitting home for me. It's not just what they did in order to try to get rid of me. But facing that all by myself has been hard. Until just the last couple of days I've held my ex-wife in my heart with a willingness to be sweet on her still. But I think their cold, calculating destruction of my life is moving me past wanting to be sweet on her. But it is not the calculating and manipulative part alone, it is realizing that after trying so hard to discard me that she left me saying that she told me why she was leaving even though she did not. She was taught to be a cold, lying, b!tch by my former splinter group. She never did me the couresy of telling me why it was over. And I now realize that part of their plan was to never admit what they did to me. I think they would have been most happy if I'd just crawled into a hole and died. I don't ever expect to see anything from her other than their pre-planned and complete rejection of me. While that alone has been torturous for me the last several years, I think realizing how deliberately destructive she is willing to be has ruined any sweetness that I have felt for her. Barnard taught my ex-wife to be one destuctive woman, but just like TWI leadership she can actually still love-bomb people. But for her boy's father she has shown nothing but contempt. I'm not certain if I've just lost something good in me or just coming to an overdue reality check in seeing her hatred for me for what it is. I just am not sweet on her any more, and I'm certain that I never will be now. Being able to talk about it hear has helped some.

A little venting that seems to fit your post at least a little Bolshevik. If I'm ever a big enough tool that I can be talked into deliberately leaving someone like me completely alone without support, just F'in shoot me somebody, please!

Damaged people promoting themselves as men of God. Yet once again I can perceive exactly what TWI really was. Damages people leading damaged people into receiving more damage. It reminds me of the blind leading the blind and both ending up in a ditch. But some still think that TWI represents the most excellent and capable believers of all time.

I don't think that your experiences are off-topic in this thread at all Potato.

In my former splinter group it is clear to me that they wanted to portray things like I was Ananias. And my wife was in the picture too. Since I shared what I felt about the true application of this section and did not back down they never could spring whatever trap they were thinking of. So these verses represent for me just one of many traps they tried to trip me up with before they gave up trying to trip me up and just moved my family away from me and kicked me out. I have no doubt that if I had dropped dead about that time they would have likened me to Ananias. That would have been easy for them to do since the prospect for me calling them on it would be very low. ^_^

That was a very gentle post and I'm happy to add my input. I think you completely underestimate the scope of the lies, destruction, and manipulation that was at the root of Wierwille's TWI. Since I feel that, I also feel that the answers that you have worked out for yourself and consequently promote to others (It is a free country after all.) really don't address the true scope of TWI problems at all. I blame nobody for running away from TWI and staying away. I think those that are still involved in TWI are deliberately suckered by top leadership. In my attempt to answer your last question I cannot get past my opinion that you have not seemed to face the sin, the mess, and the life destroying complications that came as Wierwille's fruit. But I am going to consider it further.

I respect honest scepticism a lot more than a false teacher who just lies to the suckers like TWI and my former splinter group did. It sounds to me like you won't be presuming to teach anyone the Bible if they believe these things to be true like I do TheInvisibleDan. But if I ever know of someone who thinks like you do but acts like they are a believer I will be happy to expose them as frauds. But is it possible in spite of your honest skepticism that the intended lesson is more like I've shared it and less like you believe? My view of this scripture comes from just trieing to figure out where I stood while being goaded into following a scum-sucking false teacher and false prophet. Where does your skepticism come from TheInvisibleDan?

I used to believe every protestation of trustee and Way Corps competency that I heard. Now I just believe that the trustees just turned the Corps into glorified yes men, and women, who were taught enough info to sound competent. It seems evident that the primary qualification for those that Geer said were qualified was in truth that he owned them. I mean every story I've heard of actual involvement with top leadership simply involved a Pavlovian response to a certain manner and/or oratory style. I think that the Corps, as far as being actually able to lead people away from this TWI cesspool were no better than trained monkeys. And those who showed themselves to be made of better stuff like Schoenheit and Dubovsky were quickly shown the door and excommunicated. (edited for grammar)

Dear Watered Garden, Barnard is a 14th Corps grad who says of himself that he is a true son of Wierwille. Since I came to the Greasespot I have come to see considerable irony in this view of his. After a while of living under the gun like that, I sometimes wondered if it was my problem or theirs. To the best of my ability I've dealt with my problems, but their problems have still hurt me an awful lot. I'm sooo glad for the Greasespot Cafe!

Yeah, I hear you there Bramble, I guess that even though Peter was no busybody in this record, the busybodies that you are referring too think that they are spiritual people. To bad, so sad, for them anyway.

The subject of false teachers.....hhhmmm..... Yeah, I suppose it can relate to this topic. If the false teacher is accusing others of having devils, you bet it applies IMO. As a matter of fact, since I haven't heard anything otherwise it seems entirely possible that this thread DIRECTLY APPLIES TO SUCH A SITUATION. :P But as I said before, it is all to easy to go too far in this sort of consideration. Since nobody saw fit to clarify their position in regards to seeing "real devils" I suppose that we are free to figure it out for ourselves. :B) But I also think that most folks who throw around such verses that boldly concern false teachers and/or devils throw these things around all too freely. Perhaps bringing upon themselves the very judgment that they seek to put on others. So in matters of such importance I'm going to have to be more deliberate in my statements than my emotions alone might tend to have me be.

(a little added in editing; spelling and grammar tweaked too.)

With everybody's experiences being different in TWI it seems to me that maybe some of us might be willing to go on the record with experiences that fit this category. In TWI these things did not happen to me, even though some of the bad doctrines and counsel were definitely a factor in the times that I was a jerk. I'm attempting to go beyond the scope of any jerk-ness that I can recall committing and speak directly to deliberate cruelty and violations of basic human dignities. For me, these experiences relate directly to "River Road Fellowship" led by Victor Barnard. Before they kicked me out I was trying to talk to my wife in order to get her to see things my way. After a while it was clear that everything that I told my wife in the privacy of my own house was being reported to leadership. After a while it got to the point where I could just tell her anything and within a day or two leadership would call a meeting in an attempt to deal with it. Sometimes I would talk to her in the evening and first thing the very next morning a teacher dealt with these things. It could have been quite maddening except that I already had seen enough to be certain that these scum-buckets were willing to do absolutely anything to mess with my head.Intimidation was the norm at these meetings. It's not that I felt intimidated by these thugs, I felt my family was under assault. So for the most part I kept a straight face and dealt with it. Under these circumstances in a small communal fellowship they are capable of putting an intense amount of pressure on an individual. For me, every stare, every inference concerning my issues with the fellowship, and every slight just seemed to add pressure that built up over time. when I was under the influence of such intense pressure they would often try to provoke me into doing something stupid. When they realized that I was just playing with them as far as just watching them react to the things that I would tell my wife in privacy they tried to get me to accuse them of using electronic eves-dropping devices. As I considered my wife capable and willing of repeating everything that I told her in privacy I never responded to the provocation of wild accusations concerning eves-dropping. But I knew that they were willing to eves-drop if it suited them. When my splinter group owned their camp they invited a minister named Art Katz from Minnesota down for a visit. I participated in an evening of scriptural discussion with them. After the night was over Art and his friend went back to their romm and discussed their evening in privacy. When one of the men came to tell Barnard that from his room (which was right over Katz's room in the housing) that he could hear everything that Katz and his friend said Barnard told him to go listen to everything they said. It may have been that this man was directly over Katz's friend's room, I'm not certain about that point. So for me, I already know what they are. It is just a simple question of how far they are willing to go in their violations of basic human dignities. I want people who may be thinking of visiting them to know these things. (a little added in editing)

Arguing theology doesn't change that TWI leadership used it to get sex. It stands to reason that their theology tended to justify the abuse. Save the doctrinal discussion for the doctrinal section.

But as far as the worst of TWI abuse goes, including the times that leadership manipulated and destroyed those who perhaps were by the spirit reproving them, yeah, IMO those offenders are forever marked by their wickedness until the Lord himself takes it out of their hides. But with such emotion filled sentences the human tendency is to go too far and fall into error too IMO. But on the other hand..... Wierwille tuned the Grace of God (scriptures and the name of Christ, etc.) into lasciviousness. My former splinter group broke down the natural family order until the men were castrated and the women were thinking of Barnard as their children's "true" father. I have no qualms of conscience in calling both these things damnable and devilish.

Yep, theology was used to get sex.

Dear Geisha, Yes, what you are saying makes sense to me. I have been in situations where the application of these things seemed cut and dry. For instance, any one of the times where my splinter group leader did things that were evil and manipulative on virtually every level. And to top it off he is so in tune to the casual conversation in the group and has taught his followers to be super sensitive to every utterance and report back that he can effectively squash any opposition before it begins. But in spite of these things seeming exceedingly clear to me as far as understanding Barnard's actions right now, when looking at the consequences in the scriptures for these things when the Lord Himself judges they are not so clear to me. The fact that even the apostle Paul reported looking ahead at these future events as "seeing through a glass darkly" speaks to my heart that I am not suppose to have a clear picture as to what the Lord Jesus will do to them. Another reference is when the scriptures speaking of the Lord Himself revealing the hidden things in mens' hearts at His coming. So in all these things I find it to be wise to not say too much and wait for the Lord. But if I feel compelled to refer to part of Barnard's doctrine as devilish it certainly seems that it is good that I must understand that I may be held accountable for it. And that is part of why I called out What The Hey. It didn't seem to me that he knew that. And Geisha, I'm happy to explore these things with you.

Dear Geisha, In my first post I tried to call What the Hey out for claiming that he perceived "real devils" at work here at the Greasespot.I'm also attempting to deal with TWI leadership habit of calling things that they do not like to be devilish. I agree with you 100% as to calling the Jesus of the church to be a devil. Because if through the Holy Spirit, Jesus is present in any group I feel that calling that Jesus a devil fits the sin that the Lord says was unforgivable. Especially when a concerted effort is made to spin-doctor them into appearing evil and also fighting the things that the lord is working in the church. I think that it's true whether or not their happens to be signs and wonders happening for all to see. The most important single thing seems to me to be the Spirit's presence. Hence the unforgivableness of the sin in calling the Spirit a devil especially when coupled with fighting against God's workings. Now if the Spirit works reproof, then I suppose that calling it devilish is not good too. But it's not just in the heading of reproof or not IMO. It is also in the blasphemy of those who make this tremendously arrogant assumption that because they don't like what they hear, that they will announce to all that "it is a devil." If I understand you correctly in your last post you seem to think that I'm refering to those who will not accept reproof from TWI. For me it is not just that alone. It is also that IMO TWI has a long history of destroying those who reprove or rebuke them. And also that they have a long history of accusing groups and individuals who did those things of having devils. And I happen to think that Wierwille's bogus teaching on blasphemy of the spirit has left them unaware of the possible consequences of their actions. Geisha, does that help clarify things at all, or not? Or if I don't really understand your last post and perhaps am just rambling could you please clarify it for me?