JeffSjo

Well Mr. Dove, I guess that would force even the Lord to declare them innocent, huh? I think that human conscience in public interaction and the Lord are higher courts than the ones your rights refer too. That dove thing isn't suppose to refer to the spirit of God, is it?!

Dear Bride and Geisha, I've enjoyed reading your input on this topic and today I've been considering the point that Geisha brought up about satan being in Ananias' heart from the text and it really got me thinking about how this situation might have been like for Peter. #1 Peter was there when the other person that I'm aware of that it was spoken of that satan entered his heart, Judas Iscariot. And Judas betrayed the Lord to the authorities. #2 The Lord said to Peter's face, "Get thee behind me satan" when Peter was insisting that the Lord not go through with the crucifixion. All in all it seems to me that it was clearly available for Peter to understand these things a lot deeper than some who just run off at the mouth and misuse the harder things in the scriptures unto their own destruction. It doesn't seem to me that it makes much difference if the false teachers talk about "real devils" or "satan" in somebodie's heart. But coming from Peter this is the kind of thing that had hit Peter pretty hard before the record of Ananias and Saphira. I think that Peter was by this time absolutely and completely thankful that the Lord Himself had told him that even though satan desired to sift him like wheat the Lord Himself would intercede on his behalf. And I bet that nobody on earth ended up understanding these things better than Peter himself. Dear Cman, Since these considerations seem like such a rich diet for me I'm not sure what it will take to get me seeing these things like you do. I think that it may well be that instead of focusing on the related texts and scriptural understanding that you are reacting to the religious abuse that you've seen and heard of. But if you can clearly spell out the contradictions for me, I'm willing to hear you out. PEACE. (edited for spelling)

As a graduate of Unity High School I finally said that I am a Unitarian. (I used that one on a fellow classmate from my school for the first time ever, last week.) I actually refered to our class as being Unitarians.

I have been giving your question a little consideration Waysider. I do not have any good reason to doubt the text as it is written. I tent to agree with Bride's points. There are records of people being killed by God in the scriptures. And I would add that the risen Lord and Savior holds the keys of Hell and death. (Rev 1:18) I believe that a lot of TWI people that look at His authority over life and death either cannot recieve it because of the milktoast doctrine that we learned in PFAL or they became puffed up leadership who felt that they had the right to wreck lives and cause much misery. I find the first part understandable and the last part offensive. And as the Lord Jesus is also the High Priest forever and God has given him authority over life and death that it is impossible to separate God and Jesus Christ in how these events played out. Those two are one after all. And the things that the record does not say about Ananias and Saphira; like who they really were in their hearts; lead me to consider it wise to not run to far wondering about things that are not plainly stated about them. (edited for spelling) p.s. Dear Dot, That last post was both funny and poignant. Thank you.

(((Excathedra))) I wish you nothing but blessings with my whole heart!

I like the comparison Skyrider. For a long while now I've compred my former splinter group leaders with an amoral pack of predators/scavengers like Hyennas. But I think your comparison covers many more actual similarities.

Dear Pond, Here are four instances where you mentioned the times that testimony is given without names. You have been bringing up this point since I came to the Greasespot and for that reason you are most responsible for my decision to post my real name. And since then I have asked you on more than one occasion who you are too. I guess that you have your reasons for not giving your personal information. I can respect that. What I cannot respect is that as an anonymous poster you not only take these shots at anonymous victims, but then you even fabricate reasons for their actions. And while I mentioned once feeling a little respect for you in one instance of how you handled a particular scripture you more than loose that respect in the way you make up motives for anonymous TWI victims. I heard Christian women restore a woman who falsley said that an affair she had was a rape once. It was an intense fellowship. These women could pick up on the one woman's lying. So while I have this experience that would tend to give you the benefit of the doubt, it is because of your lack of personal contact with these TWI victims that I feel obliged to tell you that you have no basis that I can see for fabricating these TWI victims' motives. And I can understand why these TWI victims would not want to tell you who they are. (edited for spelling) (added in editing) How is it Pond that I, the forthright poster is willing to let TWI victims tell their stories anonymously while you, the anonymous critic of their's cannot let this point go? I believe it is true that they have much, much better reasons than you for their anonymity Pond. The more that I think about your lack of understanding this one thing the more I question your motives.

Dear Bramble, I really had no intention of branding you with anything at all. That just isn't something that I ever want to do. I really was just talking and thinking of times when I said something bad about God because I didn't get it. Once in prayer concerning my splinter group leader when I had been believing that God had sent him to help me I told God that I couldn't help but consider the God that would send this leader to be stupid. I feel mercy because I wasn't struck down when I called God stupid while praying. I think now that God was not guiding Barnard. And I hope that God forgives me. And about your next post after this one I've quoted, I'm really sorry you feel that way. I hope that the refreshing you seek to find really works for you. Dear cman, I don't agree with you but I will consider what you said. In the meant time I have no desire that any of us is struck down or anything like that.

In the courts of America in rape cases the victims have to be willing to suffer being discredited by the defense attorneys. For those whose actions and words seek to turn the Greasespot into an adversarial forum similar to the courts, I feel no hesitation by simply replying f-ck off! I hope these victims will find peace in spite of the ones who buy the blame and incriminate the victim mentality.

Dear TWI leadership abuse victims, I can really, really relate to how TWI leadership beat people down and wore them out through verbal bullying and a core dishonesty being brought into manifestation. I think that many of you can relate to someone who simultaneously claims to not stating anyone was lying while claiming someone is fabricating and distorting. In my universe and most folks whose sky is blue these two things are the same. White Dove will call your claims of abuse undocumentable, but rest assured, us Greasespotters have seen this abuse before in TWI or our splinter groups and many of us are willing to take these shots. Speaking for myself I like taking these illogical and abusive shots because here at the Greasespot they are written down for all to see. We will not suffer your experiences to be called undocumentable without firing back. PEACE

Dear Bramble, If the writers of the scriptures had only managed to handle "truth" at TWI leadership levels or virtually any corporation I would probably forced to conceed to your points. But when it comes to death and dying it doesn't really change anything to talk badly about God. In our flesh, we will all die. I believe when it comes to God's judgments it is usually like that. He is big, we be small. Dear Waysider, So TWI tried to intimidate with this scriptural record just as my splinter group did? This doesn't surprise me any more. For me it is also at the crux of my grievances with them as it pertains to many forms of institutionalised abuse.

Dear TWI victims, Please feel free to infer that most everybody that counts here at the Greasespot Cafe will see through any attempt that would tend to liken believing your story with being inquisitorial as White Dove implies with this last post. You will find smart and good hearted people here who will listen to you. Dear Wierwille rape victims, It matters nothing to me who White Dove thinks is an internet wannabe. Please don't let this type of put down fool you into thinking that anyone will think less of you here. As a matter of fact it seems plain to me that many would be happy to fight FOR YOU. Dear TWI victims, Please do not believe anyone who points out that your stories are unverifiable and so we cannot believe you. Most people would call that "calling into question" your story, I understand this, and so does most everybody else here. Many folks here at the Greasespot knew you or knows somebody who knows you. Don't worry TWI victims. Most of us understand that it is cowardly to imply someone is lying without having the cohones to actually say someone is lying. Even if they choose to hide behind persnickety and unrealistic conversational mores.

Thank you leafy dear, It's just that I really, really do not like that section.

I've been considering for quite some time to do about this perspective of White Dove's. WD has the right to state an opinion. And no matter how ably, IMO, many of you respond to this opinion WD will not cease to share this opinion. And simply put, it is beyond my authority to force anyone here to cease from stating opinions that I happen to find disagreeable. I am thankful for those of you who ably and willingly answer WD every time that this opinion is put forth. While tiresome I'm sure, I suppose it is most necessary that an answer is provided. And speaking for myself, I'm glad each and every time that someone points out legal standards are irrelevant here at the Greasespot, unless of course someone wishes to make a legal case out of something that I've said. In that case I would be most happy to have a trial where my accuser is faced with a legally appropriate burden of truth. But my real concern is that many TWI victims may not feel up to facing their experiences being called into question by WD or anyone else for that matter. I am most thankful for those of you who have shared in spite of the opposition even here at the Greasespot. So for those of you TWI victims who may like to share your experiences, I freely encourage you to do so and add to the many credible testimonies and documented perversities of Wierwille and his hand-picked children who unfortunately have fooled many and destroyed many lives too. And from here on out, EVERY SINGLE TIME I SEE POSTS THAT IMO TEND TO DISCOURAGE SHARING AND HEALING I WILL SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THOSE OF YOU WHO MAY BE READING THESE POSTS. PLEASE FOLKS, IGNORE THE OPPOSITION AND FEEL FREE TO SHARE YOUR STORIES. GREASESPOT POLICY ALLOWS YOU TO PROTECT YOUR IDENTITY. FEEL FREE TO DO SO IF YOU WISH.

I choose to believe it as it is written cman. Choosing to believe the scriptures after all the damage that TWI did while giving lip service to that choice is no easy thing for me. I enjoy a lot of what you've shared, but in terms of this record, well, it works for me even though it is a harsh record. Wierwille's version of what God did and didn't do is indicative of a false prophet. It seems to me that he would speak out of one side of the mouth when talking about God's goodness as it was directed at him, the MOG; while choosing to behave in a perverse and destructive fashion. It doesn't surprise me that ex-wayfers would have trouble with this record. But for me it helps to consider the truth that in our flesh alone we all die. This record just points to a specific instance of it happening unto Ananias and Saphira. And if I have received mercy in anything like this record then I am obliged by the scriptures and my conscience to give the mercy that I've received instead of perhaps being judged like these two were in this record. And for those who imagine false reasonings for why somebody else might have dropped dead at one time or another, well if God wasn't behind it for the reasons that the prophet says then he/she is just another self-styled false prophet. In real life these things are not easy to deal with when we have flesh and blood people to deal with. But nailing false prophets when speaking strictly theoretically isn't even that easy sometimes. Dear Rascal, I'm with you 100% on the importance of loving God and loving my neighbor. For me it is important to love God knowing that may be willing to judge for Himself at any time as he did in this record though. (edited for spelling)

It seems certain to me that I never have seen the worst of the posts here at the Greasespot. But I can't help but wonder what kind of post or thread that is innapropriate in one place would be o.k. in another. When I first noticed the section I considered in my heart how I would not like the threat of a greasespot swirly held over my head. I didn't like bullies in highschool where putting the nerd's head in the toilet and giving him a "swirly" was considered funny. My opinion of this type of behavior hasn't changed that much except to say that I feel stronger about it now than when I did not like bullies in high school. When my former splinter group leader did not like someone he would sometimes lift up one leg a little bit and let a little fart out. I still remember the smug look on the face of this insane bastard as he shared the inside joke with his thugs in training. I'm not convinced of the need for this section, but I suppose I have not seen the very worst threads either. But I am certain that I do not like that it is there. It brings stuff back. (edited for spelling) TWI sometimes just put down people who needed help too!

Oh, O.K. Tzaia, Thank you, and thank you for clearing that up. :) Yeah, it might be for the best, I get that. But I'm happy to share the experiences with all too.

I really do hope that things have been well with you Dot. I still remember tripping over my keyboard a little bit when we were posting about divorce in the doctrinal section. PEACE, JEFF

Dear Tzaia, The reason, as I stated, is because of the false accusations that my splinter group leadership held against me. And after reading White Dove's concern that we hold TWI leadership to be innocent until proven guilty it seemed like a fine time to point out what many of us already know to be true. I believe that TWI leadership was willing to throw about any accusation that served their purposes without the benefit of the courts that White Dove is so keen on expounding on the virtues of. Except for their total disregard of the truth and what clearly appears to be the worst possible motives that I can imagine they do deserve a fair hearing still. I think the Greasespotters have given them this and justly point out guilt and corruption. Does that explanation spell out why I think my post was on-topic? I know that feeling Rumrunner. I often feel that my former splinter group leadership was sooo bad that accusing me of having a devil quite possibly means that I was doing something right.

I can say this honestly with no hesitation whatsoever. Leadership in my splinter group destroyed my life and others with false accusations. What went hand in hand with the lives they destroyed was a false and insane opinion of there spiritual authority and their competency. I have heard many sharings that have made it clear that my former splinter group leadership learned how to do these things from top TWI leadership. I wish my former splinter group was willing to consider people like me to be not guilty without hard evidence. But the greasespotters that I've heard since I came hear are in an altogether better universe than TWI leadership was in terms of handling these things IMO. Well, at least the ones who are not casting doubt on honest victims by calling into question many experiences and documented occurrences. When the documentation fits the personal sharings so well, it seems very reasonable to believe the sharings without having anything specific reason to doubt them. Right now I am most thankful for the many Greasespotters who have been brave enough to share their experiences in spite of the oppressive nature of some of the opposition. So when it is all said and done for me, the Greasespotters have done a better job in these things than TWI leadership, and better too than those who cast doubt on reasonable and honest testimony (edited for spelling)

Everybody that has ever lived has died. This too is part of God's judgment. In our flesh alone, we all die. It's just a question of working out the specifics. I don't believe there is any cure to this malady of death without the Lord Jesus Christ. (added in editing) I do not mind at all if this post happens to provoke further discussion. :)

I am certain that my most painful experiences are with those who misread a section where God does some real heavy judging and decide that they are entitled to destroy lives for themselves. It can be hard to wrap my head around the sections where God judges His people all by Himself. But when people start executing judgment for God as they see fit it becomes real nasty fast. But when God Himself does it, it seems like it could be very traumatic too.