JeffSjo

So Rosie, Donna, and others have access to multiple millions of dollars from TWI abundant sharing in the old days? Ever since I read post #8 in the "Where does TWI keep it's files" thread I've been thinking about the rich ones who used to run TWI. Scumdog millionaires?, I think so. It seems certain to me that with the scummy actions of top leadership in the past and more recent lawsuits, etc. that living high on the hog off those millions that they have is all the reward they will ever get for their life in the ministry. I bet they are cocky and smarmy too. I guess they do not believe they will ever face justice for being SCUMDOG MILLIONAIRES. I wonder if the folks that these people still direct realize that the scumdog millionaires will use them until they are not useful and discard them like trash whether or not they deserve better because the scumdogs have in the case of TWI won their temporal reward. They have the millions and love it while they use people. Does anyone know who is living well on TWI's money these days? I've heard of certain folks who used to be upper level leadership and those that were very close to the sexual abuse that was forced on the Corps women that were living very well. I do not have enough facts to be certain of anyone's income source however. I would be exceptional happy if others besides Donna, Rosie, Coward Allen, and LC Martindale have access to the bankroll. (See the aforementioned post #8) What can the rest of add to our knowledge of the Scumdog Millionaires?

So..... DWBH mentions his regret and suggests other possible homes for this thread, especially the soap opera thread and then another poster comes in and aggresively confronts anyone who seems willing to go at it with him. Haven't those tactics been reported commonly of Martindale and other top TWI leadership? I guess inspiration doesn't have to come from a higher plane at all.....no matter the avatar. Dear Mark Clarke, While I would be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt concerning your knowledge of Finnigan from some sort of personal contact; to me his silence concerning his mistakes as a minister is more than enough for me to reject him as a serious prospect to minister to anyone that I know without a strong warning from me at least. Since this is not a doctrinal discussion I will not quote scriptures right now at all, but the nature of the reported allegations among TWI leadership are far, far beyond simple mistakes. We are talking about delusions of granduer and vile abuses of many people on many different levels with a deliberate pattern of public silence mixed with missinformation on the part of The Way International and it's top leadership. GEE, SIGN ME UP VINCE, I CANNOT WAIT TO SPEND YEARS PROVING OR SEEKING TO FIND OUT IF YOU HAVE RECOVERED FROM TWI LEADERSHIP HABIT PATTERNS WHILE I SEND YOU MY MONEY! (not yelling, just emphasis) Just frigin great. (edited for spelling and grammar)

Dear DWBH, I am really sorry that you feel that way about this thread. Even though I figure that much of your assessment of the intention for this thread is probably correct I am thankful that you shared some of your personal issues with Finnigan for all of us to see. I feel strongly that all of former leadership that has been mostly silent for many years were either due to bad motives or being suckered in by platitudes from Geer and others whose motives were to manipulate these well intentioned leadership into silence. And I tend to share the optomism that was so ably stated in this thread of the possibility of former TWI leadership having a change of heart. But my experience in this type of thing often has shown me that my optomism is not the determining factor in the final outcome of any exchange. But I cannot help but look for any exchange that I may be a part of to have (hopefully by the grace of God) some form of good outcome. I am really sorry that you feel that your sharing was a mistake. For me it seems good to hear how things were for you. If your regret for sharing is based on your own missgivings I gladly would let you to your considerations and maybe wait for you to willingly spell them out or share some more at your pleasure. But if your regret is because of how folks have reacted to your sharing, I cannot help but consider the possibility that in truth, it is their problem and not yours. If nothing else, I do not intend to change my mind that your posting was not a waste of my time. If the mods feel it is appropriate to move this thread they certainly have the ability to do so. I have found their actions to be well thought through. One of the things that I highly value about this site is the ability to think through and evaluate any post. And whether the poster's motives were to bait and cause to stumble or to simply put something out there for feedback I have at times highly enjoyed the exchanges. Especially as I find new answers to old headaches. Take care and God Bless.

Well, since it isn't scriptural..... maybe it went down something like this at TWI. #1 Wierwille is the man of God for our day and time. (This isn't intended as sarcasm yet, I'm just stating it factually from TWI's perspective according to my own recollection.) #2 Weirwille was taught the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century. #3 TWI commonly referred to other Christian organizations as sell-outs or devilish. After all the whole world resides in darkness. (o.k., I was seriously tempted to be sarcastic with that last sentence... not yet) So how TWI ended up applying this statement by Wierwille is that nobody in TWI will ever go any farther than Wierwille teaches them to. That seems pretty consistent for little old intermediate class grad me. (a little sarcasm there) Why if it wasn't for the blatant abuses of power and of the believers and also the consistent lying and hiding by TWI over the last few decades I'd be tempted to think everything at TWI was peachy. (sarcasm) IT ENDED UP BEING JUST ANOTHER LEVER OF CONTROL FOR WIERWILLE TO SUBJEGATE PEOPLE WITH IMHO. ("H" being for HONEST in this case.) (edited for spelling)

Dear Twinky, I am very glad that this ministers words did so much good to your heart. Thank you for sharing them too. JEFF

I'm not sure at all what to do about the "Chutzpah" part of that statement Oldies. Some people show chutzpah, and if I'm not wrong that can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the situation. For someone whose avatar's name seems to imply that you are playing the oldies from TWI it seems odd to me that you give the words of Jesus any credence at all. Why I remember them mocking "red letter Christianity" when it suited them. Imagine how it seemed to me when these same words of Jesus that they mocked also judge TWI for their wickedness. Heck, in a situation like this somebody has to have Chutzpah oldies. But my opinion is that for the most part you show Chutzpah in really bad and even revealing situations. And you quite often nag people about their lack of Chutzpah even though you show no indication at all of even showing even a fraction of the chutzpah that they show by posting about their TWI abuse here. If the difference between an internet harangue and good rebuke is the substance and the intentions of the poster I feel strongly that it is you Oldies who comes up short in this case. (edited for spelling and a little added for clarity)

High ther MR.ANONYMOUS, ( that is you Oldiesman) If TWI leadership hadn't long ago established behavioral norms that came from the sociopathic Wierwille the type of action that you describe might actually accomplish something. But a lot of people here have amply described ministry leasdership behavior that is abusive on several levels. And it is all too easy to be fairly certain that TWI leadership would not respond with what most of us would call sorrow and/or human decency. I would welcome hearing that TWI leadrship took responsibility for it's behavior publically. If this has happened please tell me. By accountability, I of course mean a public accounting of there indecencies. If someone who's known Vince for as long as DWBH has hasn't heard him acount for his wrongs then what chance does Joe believer who has not the status in TWI that leadership was taught to honor. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE WHAT I'M SAYING PERHAPS YOU COULD DO ME THE PLEASURE OF GIVING ME SOME IDEA OF WHO I'M TALKING TO OLDIES. Heck, I know better than to expect someone as forthright as you to try for a face to face Oldies. How about your name. hehehe. There, see how I expect less of you than you require of abuse victims. Your name doesn't seem like too much for me to ask Oldies. Back to the topic..... I really do not understand why Vince feels that he has any right to run any kind of church. He himself has admitted that he was part of the problem in TWI. But of course with this pathetic admission of guilt but no accountabitlity he has folks following him. Soon after realizing what kind of things Wierwille did and taught people like Finnigan, Lynn, and Martindale to do it became clear to me that they were trained in God's Word by one of the worst kind of scumbuckets that I can think of, and they've called him their Father in the Word. And personally I am certain that the whole concept of knowing the word like it has not been known since the first century was a bunch of bull crap. So for me the fact that Vince's TWI background was so entrenched in abuse and delusion and that he has done nothing that illistrated public accountability for any of this makes him a bad man....period. Heck, he hasn't even sought out an old and dear(?) aquantaince like DWBH says that he is. OH, YEAH, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IT IS NOT LOVE THAT VINCE IS OOZING. In my bible turning from wickedness includes some actiion other than silence. What exactly has Vince fessed up to, really? (edited for grammar)

I guess that just because we can only see that day through a glass darkly doesn't mean that we can't imagine! That day living in our hearts has at least one promise associated with it that I can recall..... sigh.....times up, gotta go, take care friends.

For me Oldies, I think that this is the issue. If it is Christ in us, the Hope of glory. But then the bastard leader raises bastard children who simultaneously teach people to fear them and to believe to see the CHRIST IN THEM and to honor the leadership position which of course is IN CHRIST.....yeah right BTW..... Of course different MEMBERS OF THIS BASTARD LED ORGANIZATION must come up with all kinds of screwy ideas to try to salve their conscience of what they see, in the case of TWI sexual and spiritual abuse. And in my mind, it seems perfectly reasonable that these bastards or their mind-numbed followers would come up with quasi-scriptural reasons to see CHRIST in a sociopathic predator like Wierwille. Of course as you've spoken of oral traditions that were never written down, how on God's green earth can you possibly deny that these bad ideas could have come from within TWI!?

Speaking for myself..... My former splinter group experience was bad enough. I have no intention of going to a church that has as one of it's leadership a man who has not confessed to a long series of sexual abuses that he has committed and doesn't seem to realize that he should try to fix what he's broken too..... ahem.....Mark Clarke-WTF?

Thanks bunches for the history Skyrider, As I was neck deep in my former splinter group during these events I tend to be fairly clueless without some kind of head's up. But oddly enough, or then again perhaps not, I would generally expect WayGB or Carnegie trained Wayfers to be the most likely use the false appearance of their own forthrightness in giving me a "heads up" in order to simply manipulate me in such a fashion......SIGH! After all, it has been the kind of thing that in their own deceptive fashion has actually developed into a fairly effective skill-set.

I hope that you all would excuse me while I repost this one here. At the time that I wrote it I had no real idea that Vince was in so deep with the ministry that he learned from Wierwille. The kind where the leaders run off the juices they get from an ever expanding series of debaucheries and abuses that were done in God's name. If I knew that when I posted this one I wouldn't have used Wierwille's name, I would have used Finnigan's. ________________________________ Dear DWBH, Thank you for the answer to my question. I am more than willing to accept your decision to not get too personal about things between you and Vince, or Vince and his victims and/or fellow bastards. I especially can respect your desire to see real healing for all of them. I guess I can understand your decision to not drag out twenty year old history for all of us to see the gory details too. You've given me enough without naming any name but Vince's to understand how deep he was in the crapola pile that is TWI..... thank you. I wouldn't be likely to try to keep you from revealing any of your personal dealings with Vince or his with yours if you were to choose to lay it all out for us though. And if I thought it would help any of his victims at all to vent here at the Greasespot I would most likely happily run off any interference from the opposition if I could. With my former splinter group leader I would expect at minimum a full public acknowledgment of his insanities and the kind of turning where with tears he does his very best to fix all the damage he's done as if his life depended on it. (Although to be honest, to me he seems to be just as good at manipulating folks with his tears as Wierwille was.) I'm not holding my breath either. The issues between him and me are much more current and raw for me too. And FYI, since I know nobody here it is good to here your views on who stands with who. If nothing else it is good to be informed on these kinds of things I think. (edited for spelling and a little added for clarity)

A long overdue Hiya back at you DWBH, After my year plus at the Greasespot I have no trouble believing what you have experienced with Vince, DWBH. And while I am in no way saying this at you because I doubt you, I feel that this must be said..... I remember all the bad things TWI leadership did to everybody by just one little unsubstantiated put down to turn everyone else away from the object of the put down. Looking back, it almost seems like leadership could turn us away from any good person with but one little such saying. So while I've read to much to doubt you at this time DWBH I have a request. Is there any way possible that you could spell out some of your experiences with Vince so that the rest of us who only know him as one of the good guys according to TWI propoganda may have something more substantial to go on? I have a strong preference for credible testimonies to counter religious madmen anyway..... :B) (edited for spelling)

Wow, it is almost beyond belief Skyrider. If I hadn't have seen this style of leadership in my former splinter group it would be easy to dismiss how anal and perverse leadership has been in changing what most of us refer to as common human decency. This may be the place to bring something up as my greasespot experience may relate to how we consider the WayGB. If I am off track feel free to fill me in on the threat they really represent to folks. I believe that they are a paper tiger in this respect. Mind games seem to be their only tools.? Is it true that they have no influence over those who have escaped TWI's clutches? Just how far does their influence extend outside of the walls of "lyin zion?" I guess the reason that I'm wondering these things is because I've gone public at the Greasespot for about a year and I haven't had even a hint of trouble from them. I don't know anything about the social interaction of ex-wayfers because here alone in the frozen north I do not run in any of these circles. And after my former splinter group experience I can only imagine what kind of trouble Carnegie trained TWI folks could possibly cause you folks on the sly within a circle of ex-wayfers, for the time being I seem to be completely outside of any of these kind of influences. I'm guessing that for those of us who have friends and family in TWI the WayGB can be as cruel to any of us as ever. But in my former splinter group even though the leadership could be cruelly devastating to anyone who does not just go with the flow and this same leadrship thought too highly of their own authority, I believe that compared to such activity in the real world they were a puffed up group of oafish amateurs. My own opinion of dealing ones like the WAYGB runs something like this.... Once we are too angry and/or wise-up we become mostly annoyed by the same mind games that used to devastate us and hold us back. (edited for grammar and spelling)

I think that this is a very relevant thread Groucho, thank you. My former splinter group leader, Victor Barnard took every opportunity that I can recall to emphasize his ownership over mens' wives and children ala Wierwille for sure. So even though I have no proof that he ever took it into a sexual relationship, Barnard's secrecy, paranoia, and manic belief that all men will bow to him along with him taking every opportunity that I can remember to emphasize to all the men his ownership of their wives and children means that I can relate to TWI. To be honest, my ex-wife's behavior does leave a little question mark in my mind though. I can only imagine how bad it must be for the men that Wierwille cuckolded however. Dealing with a questionmark is hard enough for me. I wish that these men would find the courage to share and add their testimony to the Greasespot cafe. I am sure that they would find support. I think that they might find something to fight for aggain too. Even King David had one wife given to another man by wicked men. I think God can heal them. It may not be easy though. I wish them all the best. PEACE, JEFF

God help me, I believe it happened as it was written and can't seem to do much about that and I don't think I want to. But then reading this scripture helped me to resist the abuse, not subjegate me. And I don't have anything bad to say about any of the rest of you either. SO THERE! :P Actually Bolshevik, where some see control mechanisms I just read about two people dropping dead. I'm going to consider what Socks and TheInvisibleDan said too....HHHMMM. (edited for spelling)

AVOIDANCE..... Yes, I think that is what Wierwille did Bride. It was a cover-up and a complete compromise and adulteration of the scriptures. It looks like Wierwille intended to avoid the following points....... In James 2:25 and Hebrews 11:31 the word for "harlot" is "porne" in the greek. My Young's defines it as- one sold, a seller, fornicator. Even with only my Youngs concordance to work from I can see that this particular greek word shares at least a common root with our word "pornography." In Joshua 2:1 and 6: 17, 22, & 25 Rahab is called a harlot, and in my Young's concordance the word in these OT scriptures is "zanah" which is defined- to commit fornication, go a whoring. Even with a brief look it seems obvious that Wierwille lied about Rahab the harlot actually being an innkeeper. I remember how Wierwille sounded when he lied about this to us. And to be perfectly honest, he sounded exactly like he did any other time when he took authority to tell us what the truth was. _______________________________________ Wierwille also taught us that the OT law did not apply to us too. This was another lie, check this out. Leviticus 19:29 (KJV) Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore[zanah in the Hebrew again]; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness. Well according to what I can tell not only does this scrpiture apply to us, it according to God's Word described what happened to The Way International. It doesn't seem so easy to deny the law when the consequences for breaking the law have been fulfilled right before our very eyes in our lifetime. THE WAY INTERNATIONAL BECAME FULL OF WHOREDOM AND WICKEDNESS. I.....think.....it.....applies.....DUH! I also love how this commandment addresses the men in charge of the young women. Of course young women can be lied to, manipulated, or forced into prostitution. So it is obvious to me that those who blame TWI young women for what they were led into do not see it as God sees it. The men in charge will be held accountable. I HATE THE BLAME THE VICTIM LIE, especially as it takes away compasssion for the victims in our mind. __________________________________ Matthew 1:5,6 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab [Rahab]; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; And Jesse begat David the king; So after Rahab the Harlot watched God destroy the city that most likely forced her into prostitution she married a man of Judah named Salmon. And in so doing she became Ruth's mother-in-law (see the book of Ruth) and David's great-grandmother. Seeing this great salvation for Rahab I understand why it pains me to think of the things that TWI sexual abuse victims must overcome. But I root for each and every single one of them to find faith that brings out the "virtuous woman" inside of every one of them. Husbands if they wish......DAM STRAIGHT. Children too...... F_ckin right. Clear conscience.....of course. Give them grief..... well imagine how Joshua and Caleb must have thought of Rahab. Maybe you give them grief at your own peril!?

Today my son is six years old instead of five. He just told me that he wants to type again. Sooo here goes....... (I helped my son but he hit the keys himself) ;) :B) :wub: :wub: Willie says thank you.

I'm betting that for anyone who has suffered trouble for the truth's sake there are many Bible stories that they can relate too, I think that is a big part of the reason why so many stories are written down. In TWI one of the main problems seems to have been that the man in charge only painted that kind of picture of himself and for him, teaching folks that he could relate to the Bible stories only served to help him manipulate and abuse many young women and men. ___________________________________________________ As concerning this thread I had a "LORD HAVE MERCY" moment yesterday. And it goes something like this..... What if those of us who have wished that the Lord did to Wierwille what He did to Ananias and Saphira are now the same one's who refuse to acknowledge that in the record in Acts the Lord may have actually stopped something from happening that was actually worse than TWI. With my views of the scriptures it is only natural for me to look for wisdom and power in the things that are recorded that the Lord did. At the very least I would hope that someone who doesn't agree with me would at least be willing to consider this version that I'm sharing is at least a valid possibility, or give me a sound reason why it could not have been for the reasons that I'm posting here.

I'm going to think about it Cman, but it is a challenging topic. In my splinter throup they were trying to use this scripture to get me to give over more financially to them and I rejected that application without denying the events that are recorded in Acts about Ananias and Saphira. First off, If as the scripture's record that Ananias and Saphira were struck down for their actions the things that were going on between the Lord and Peter's spirit were not plainly stated. And that is not even mentioning the possibilities of what and how things may have passed between the Father and Our faithful high priest. So for me right now there are many, many things that this record does not spell out. But if their actions might have been the planting of a corrupt seed of satan that would have led to much destruction in the church then in this instance it might have been for the better that they were struck down. After hearing from Rascal about her heart for TWI victims and the victimizers too.....well...... you've both given me a lot to think about.

Dear Rascal, I couldn't agree with you enough in that this scripture was used to abuse people. I am so sorry for how it was used to manipulate you too. I wasn't sure of that till I just read your last post. The reason that I started this thread is because I was in a situation where I was forced to find out how to look at this scripture without allowing myself to be forced into more mindless following of an abusive minister. (so-called anyway) I guess I didn't understand how deeply this scripture might run in folks or how strongly they might feel. I think about how there was so many other scriptures that were written about 2000 years ago that spoke of decievers and false prophets coming. And many seem to have been fortold by the Lord Himself as he let us know what he would do to abusers when it is His turn to judge. All I seem to be able to say to you is that I hope it is a comfort to you that he will be an avenger someday. And what can I say to you except to be willing to offer support. I remember a day after you opened your thread about your oldest son when you "shouted" on your way off this site that you are "a blessed woman." That still makes me smile. :)

I remember that Wierwille believed that Rahab was an innkeeper and not a harlot, and to be perfectly honest this has always bothered me. But since I've heard about Wierwille's more vile pastimes it perturbs me that he claimed this on his knowledge of the OT languages while carrying on with so many young women. I only have a half hour left today, and how I type means that I cannot be very thorough now. I do want to get some things down, knowing that the many of you who are more Biblically language literate than I are capable of much good input if you wish to do so. Rahab was listed as a true believer in Heb 11:31. Rahab had true faith that lead to true works in Jas 2:25. Joshua ch. 2 and Joshua 6:22-26 cover the story line that these new testament scriptures refer to and I also remember that this Rahab has been spoken of as one of King David's descendants. I've always thought of Rahab like this. She lived in a walled city in Canaan which for the most part were all well known for many different kinds of idolatry and debauchery. In these circumstances it is all to easy to imagine that a young girl may be forced into prostitution. Heck, this kind of thing happens in every big city in the world right now. And Wierwille used young women in just as despicable a manner too. So in spite of this abuse Rahab did the things she had to and was led into and still took care of her family. And when God came and told the children of Israel to execute God's judgment on the city of Jericho Rahab the harlot found saving grace and was saved from the judgment of God. I find it most interesting that God put it in the form of a commandment that no female Israelites were to be done like Rahab and young female Wayfers were done by Wierwille and his chosen children. It seems ironic to me that the one's who were given the much prized fathering by Wierwille turned out to be, Biblically speaking, the biggest bastards. I cannot think of anyone else who may have been as thankful for this one commandment of God's as Rahab. I believe that the abused women of TWI can look for Rahab's saving grace! All that Joshua was is but a fraction of the Lord Jesus Christ is. And if there is any shoe that I may find to fit in TWI (whose founding president Wierwille couldn't deal with the facts of what was done to Rahab or what she did while in Jericho) we may well find a place to fit that shoe in them. (a little added in editing)

You know what Skyrider? I really like your decision to stay vigilant. I would only add this one thing for your consideration, and not to warn you either, but so that everyone could be clear about the opposition as I saw it in my former splinter group and as I've heard of it in TWI. They use this same scripture that you brought up to beat down their enemies and they've been doing it for a long time. And in spite of the putrid nature of their corruption they are pure in their own eyes for the most part, well....., I know the Lord will sort them out too.