JeffSjo

Your post has me going HHHMMM... And even though I have only a few minutes let me throw this out for discussion. I have no time this weekend unless something changes and the library is closing in ten minutes. I've been considering Peter's perspective on this topic, after all in this record it is him that confronts both Ananias and Saphira. And as Geisha reminded me earlier he told Ananias that satan had entered his heart. Last night I was wondering how deeply satan had entered the lives of this married couple. How can we know for sure? It is not one of the easier things to consider about God vs. satan in the scriptures. Job's whole life was given to satan but God did not allow satan to kill Job. And in one O.T. record the prophet Micah (I think) told the king of Israel that the Lord had sent lying spirits to deceive him. And King Saul got a spirit of jealousy from the Lord that moved him to try to kill David repeatedly. SO, what if satan's response to his plans (whatever they were exactly) to steal, kill, or destroy through Ananias ans Saphira being called out by Peter was to simply eliminate the couple? I mean, what about satan taking them out after his plans were brought to nothing by the Apostle Peter? I hope that this really is clear for discussion. I have almost no more time. Untimely deaths are regrettable in any circumstances, but they happen. In this case we have one record that includes an Apostle and satan's tools, Ananias and Saphira. (edited for spelling)

I am not joking when I say that I have considered whether or not I should apologize to the Taliban. I will not. I wasn't the one who compared them to The Way International. I just said that they had enough sense to actually win a fight with them. :P (o.k., I may be joking just a LITTLE BIT.)

Dear Twinky, I'm going to consider this some more, but after my former splinter group experience and after hearing about many folks' TWI experience I might be much more inclined to trust and respect the ones who don't want the leadership position. Many people have shared things that make it clear that almost each and every person in leadership practically salivated over the prospect of being the big dog someday. I think it is one of the ambitions that give sociopathic ministry leaders like my former splinter leader the lever he needed to lead people around by the nose. Kind of like dangling poisoned bait in front of the prey. Even though your present situation doesn't seem to relate at all to TWI leadership as far as I can tell, for me it would still seem an issue of concern if you had someone who always wanted to be the leader. But for all I know it could actually be a situation where the unwilling shift leaders might be benefited somehow by learning to take on the responsibility, but if they are unwilling, whatcha goin to do? I think it is neat that you are part of such a program that is actually working out, no matter whether or not everyone is willing to be shift leader. And with all the prayer and care you seem to be describing to us I would expect the Lord to be working out these issues in due time in everyone's heart.

Hey, get this. I just googled ""The Way International" scumbags" and my thread in the "new member" section was number six on the list. Thanks for the inspiration Tater! Take Care.

Dear THW, It sounds like you think there is still a lot of work to do. I hope things are cool with you in the mean time. ______________________ I hope this thread doesn't strike anyone like some kind of self help project. I think we all need friends, God's grace, and patience to even work on it. And I won't hold anything against those who hold to only friends and patience here at the Greasespot either. But if this thread strikes anyone as simply pointing out how messed up someone feels, then a (((hug))) may be a better remedy, or a friend whose ears work, or a few deep breaths. Take Care and God Bless! (edited for spelling)

This is but I'll make it quick. Taliban vs. TWI: In a gunfight the Taliban wins hands down. But if TWI can convince them to put away their automatic weapons then TWI leadership will have them mentally exhausted in short order and would win. Of course at least the Taliban would have the good sense to use their guns once they understood what TWI leadership was doing to them.

Thank you for the feedback Twinky, that was pretty cool, or perhaps It would be better said as very nice I read your post yesterday and since then I've realised that what I try to do is recognize where certsain behaviors come from but still take responsibility myself. But it's not such a neat little picture when a person is still kind of broken up. Thinking about these things can be very tiring sometimes for me. I'm just hoping that the discussion might be a blessing to someone I guess.

In my former splinter group I fell onto the wrong side of leadership and over the course of years watched them manipulate and scheme to counteract my influence within the group. In the end my life was mostly broken and they seemed only more entrenched in the kind of pride that allows them to follow false prophecies, one after another, while simultaneously patting themselves on the back for being able to destroy people that were only trying to help or insisted on thinking for themselves. From my perspective and experience I am of the opinion that the kind of pride and/or false humility that we are talking about in this thread flows down from the top in a hierarchtical organization. In TWI I think it is completely fair to lay all the pride that Imagine is sharing about directly at Wierwille's feet. I've heard many sharings that make it perfectly clear that Wierwille was able and willing to destoy the lives of anyone he saw fit while at the helm of TWI. So it seems clear to me that the attitudes of Martindale, Rosie, and many others were the direct result of Wierwille's guidance. Otherwise he surely would have crushed them as he did many others. Of course once these people held the power they did to Wierwille what he taught them to do to others, they pushed him out of their way and took power. All the while using well intentioned people to win others to TWI. Many were taught the same kind of pride through example if nothing else IMO. And since I now am certain that I was not taught "God's Word as it had not been known since the first century" my former confidence seems relegated to a kind of false pride at it's root where everything that is built on that false confidence in TWI seems destined for a pride caused fall, whether before men now or before the Lord in heaven. And even in my mostly broken state I can sometimes feel the urge to pat myself on the back sometimes for simply not giving in to my former splinter group's pressure. It seems that the kind of pride that Imagine is talking about is always a possibility at any given moment. I'm just a little relieved that I will not have to answer to the Lord for building a worldwide ministry on prideful estimations of my own worthiness.

Thank you very much Dot. It has been over a year now and I still think of him often.....

As concerning the questions that concern this records accuracy, I haven't seen enough to discount the record of Ananias and Saphira as an accurate historical record. Even though sections of the scriptures have been modified over the centuries I feel that I need more to go on. But everyone is entitled to an opinion. Luther did not think that the books of Hebrews and James rated as scriptures but Tyndale did for instance. Just let me see the documentation of the changes to possibly agree with that perspective. In spite of all the feedback I still think of Peter's perspective and it seems to me that he could not have handled it better. the Lord told Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan once and Peter managed to keep going on after denying the Lord during the events of the Lord's capture and trial. (so-called trial anyway) Whenh Peter confronted Ananias he didn't do it any differently than the Lord did to him. And then he had to watch him die. I don't think he was a TWI style of bully. I think that he learned directly from the Lord how to be direct with these things. Once a minister told me regarding a guy who was living with a couple of women and was trying to get them drunk to have his way with them that he wanted to outsmart satan. I got angry and told him he should kick this gut out NOW. Direct is better than cowardly. But we don't have to be a bully to be direct, do we. I just cannot find it in me to consider Peter a bully. And I think it is unwise to try to portray him as anything other than direct. I'm out of time on the compuiter now.....sigh.....I'll try to get back later. BYE.

Dear Excathedra, I suppose that you are correct. One thing that I really like about the Greasespot is that there are completely open forums to discuss virtually any issue that may aid in helping people recover from their TWI experiences. I think that the best way for this to happen is to discuss things openly and honestly. That is why I bring up so much of my personal life, someone has to be willing to lay it on the line, so-to-speak. With clingons it can be as harmless as the classic, "OMG, I sounded just like my dad/mom" or as insidious as, "OMG, I sounded just like my ex-limb leader." But either way I tend to classify behavior learned from being subjected to such things as clingon behavior. For those bad TWI behaviors I like it best when I see someone who acted without thinking and then realized how and where which TWI leadership they learned the scummy/manipulative behavior from. Anything other reaction tends to fall into the "Wise in our own conceits" category IMO. I think there is a proverb that points out that the hope for salvation is dim for a fool who is wise in their own conceits. I am most happy to have the opportunities to change.

Ever notice how manners that you learned cling to you even after you reject those things and try to move on. Sometimes if it seems to apply I call this inability to change as having scars. But if they are not so intense I think of them as mannerisms that clingon to me. The kind of abuse that I grew up around clung to me to my ex-wife's annoyance, and even though I did not abuse I could sound and act just pretty darn close to an abuser and/or bully sometimes. Maybe the only redeeming thing I can say about this is that I was quick to apologize and changed many things. Sometimes it took time and wasn't easy either even though I knew that I behaved badly. I think that clingons really seem to want to stick sometimes, like velcro or cockleburrs maybe. In more than one long term relationship in my life I saw somebody never come to honest and open terms with how they used to behave. And they are still ensnared by the same behavior today, but not for lack of me trying to bring it up. I really think that it can even be cruel and/or hateful to let someone sit in a cruel or self destructive behavior. Especially if gossip mixed with distorted rumors comes to be the only way that the public thinks of someone.... in such a case how to help. IMO this is not an easy thing. Other times I've met people with relationship scars. Sometimes the ones that were abused by sexual dominance games seemed to do the same things just because they were exposed to such things. And I've seen folks who acted that way change their manner when they were confronted with their bad manners. Good for them. There seems to be a difference between bad behavior that can be changed and a deep seated flaw that is ingrained into one's personality. How can one know such things about themselves without feedback!? Or how about the ones who only know headgames even though they may want to love someone....sigh. Sometimes a person can decide to change after getting called on a bad pattern even though it is a clingon. But there is a huge difference between a friend saying,"See how you are." and a perceived foe saying, "I see how you are." A trusted loved one who holds my respect seems to be the best one to tell me how I'm behaving, I think. I've tried at the Greasespot to not spout scriptures according to TWI clingons deliberately. It amazes me that in spite of all the deliberate and maybe anal details in how the scriptures were handled that I could have been so deceived and plain wrong. The details and normal teaching/sharing patterns didn't stop the things that sometimes came out of my mouth from being total b.s. at times. Heck, I think that mindless adhearance to the TWI mannerisms of how to share the scriptures actually have served to strengthen the old errors, as if having a correct manner can make up for the "leaven (of TWI) that leavened the whole lump." In terms of clingons I must say that I can worry about ex-TWI leadership and those that they influence. Especially as I recognize so many TWI clingons in my former splinter group. Of course the leader's insanities don't help either....Word-in-the flesh....Yeah right! I think that sometimes we've been afflicted by Wierwille's sociopathic manner with many clingons, but then again some are still sociopaths in their own right. Can anyone else relate? (edited for spelling and grammar)p.s. Yeah I know now the title should say "Star Trek" instead of "Star Treck", but I cannot seem to change it. If some kind hearted mod happens to see this, please, can you fix the title.?

I've read Allem's final sharing on his lawsuit against TWI. I was very glad that he seemed content with how it ended. He seemed blessed with all the prayers and help too. He must have felt a little stung to point out that there was a difference between those that "said" they'd be willing to testify and those that actually did. If I recall correctly he used the phrase "your money where your mouth is." But in a lawsuit where people have to overcome years of TWI mental terrorism, (TWI calls it training) I'm certain that a partial response is to be expected to find those who would willingly subject themselves to cross-examination in a courtroom. Considering how pervasive the abuse was in TWI I am still stunned at the small numbers of lawsuits. I guess I would like people to be informed on the possibilities of success as this thread developes. I think that it is very likly that people missed out because they have not been informed. I think one of the most damaging of the old TWI mindsets in regards to folks learning to stand up for themselves is a lack of information along with the old TWI mindset of lockbox. I WILL HAPPILY CONTINUE TO DEVELOPE THIS THREAD EVEN IF THERE ARE PREDICTIONS OF CHAOS AND/OR DISASTER. Most of leadership's old "HABITS" in regard to controlling the free flow of information are only self serving manners that were originally taught by scumbags in hiding anyway. (edited for grammar) p.s. I'm fairly certain that any of my old English teachers may find that comment to be amusing.

I've heard rumors that former trustees are set for life from TWI funds. Can anyone tell me if this is true. Once I heard a second hand report on Townsend that deliberately gave me this impression, when I consider the source I'm not certain, but it could be true.

Dear Twinky, I do not know too many specifics either. Some of the things you wonder about may be, or may not be I guess. Certainly interesting considerations. The Canaanite cities apparently had a long, well deserved reputation for various debaucheries. the female forms that they used to worship and that they used in their temples seem to make it plain to me the kind of things that any harlot would be exposded to in such a city. Along with my decades of just being around I guess. I have a hard time imagining her having faith in her case if in her heart she didn't recognize God's justice coming to Jericho. Personally if TWI sexual abuse victims were comforted by that specific point I would be happy. But I don't believe that after Rahab joined Israel that her past rated as anything like a skeloten in the closet. At one point Joshua just refers to her a "the harlot" when giving instructions publically. It may only reveal how I think, but since God saved her and it seems reasonable that the two spies who she kept safe wouldn't let anyone give her any grief. And like I stated before, I suspect that Joshua and Caleb themselves must have thought that she was an amazing woman for what she did for the spies, and at the time in Israel those two were the very last ones that anyone would want to anger I think. But human nature being what it is I'm certain that she had to prove herself too, but the scriptures just give us the end result and IMO it is very freakin impressive!!! Dear Bride, Smart, yes certainly. She recognized what Israel was expected to do to Jericho as justice IMO. Smart, and she must have been amazing to recognize that alone I think. Dear Cman, What you shared about others thinking that about Rahab doesn't surprise me at all. Neither does the recollection that Dr. claimed to understand this from the texts alone without any reference to reading it anywhere else.

A good friend once asked me what I thought of gay marriage. I answered that between al the divorces and the selfishness in marriage these days that the gays may well make us heterosexuals look bad. :B)

Dear Bride, I believe the operative phrase in this exortation is "one to another in the fear of the Lord." I have recalled different commandments in the Old Testament that warn people that oppressed folks in different categories can cry unto God for injustices and it is promised that God will hear the oppressed. And for those who keep their homes through cruelty the answer seems plain to, but I don't remember the reference. I can believe in submission to a minister, but if they are twisted, abusive, and wrongheaded as became common in TWI then the TWI minister should have then been submissive to the "Whiners" in the fear of the Lord IMO. I can remember things Wierwille blew off that I am fairly certain only prove to me that he did not fear the Lord as he should have. As it seems so plain it is only a matter of the Lord making good on His Words now, like He spoke of the ones who beat their bretheren recieving many stripes, etc. Of course for those who don't choose to fear the Lord I am fairly certain that their ethical frameworks have some provision for authority in situations without abuse and/or the ones in authority not letting it go to their heads. (edited for spelling) The same gos for husbands and fathers IMO if they are abusive and/or cruel. Dwelling with them according to knowledge seems to indicate the fear of the Lord to me, it is the same bible after all.

The last few weekends Willie has been to some wrestling tournaments. He does not understand the competitive nature of the sport yet. He actually hopes the other guys do well too. What a great kid! The other children that have older brothers do seem to catch on to the competetive nature though. I love watching them wrestle. Even at six years old the differences in the wrestlers is fascinating.

Thanks for the link to the older discussion Bolshevik, that was a good read. I cannot speak for everyone's abuse and the choices that they've made regarding the possibility of lawsuits. I do not really know anyone's story but my own right now. But it seems a shame that the Allen lawsuit was sealed. Since I am looking for a "How-To-Sue The Way International handbook" I might have found many good pointers in that suit. I have no plans to sue anyone BTW. It's just that I am fairly certain that many people have seen the kind of abuse that could be actionable. Getting expert advice from good lawyers is a must. How about running down lawyers that have successfully sued churches for hiding sexual abuse. They are out their!!! I am fairly certain that if a case was strong that the old cases could probably be opened by prosecuting attournies.? At least we know there is a precedent. It's just that it is hiden for now. DARN. It would be an interesting read to actually read the record of how Rosie threw Martindale under the bus. From the stories at the Greasespot it seems clear that there was a pattern to TWI abuse that ran very deep with TWI using various mindgames and psuedo-theology to get many people to help them on many levels over many freakin years. I've gotta believe that a lawsiuit is possible. But people have to have overcome some of the TWI b.s. that has had them twisted up into knots for years and years to even begin to deal with these things I guess. Let alone be able to keep their courage when TWI style abuse that we were trained to like Pavlov's dogs came at us. Maybe if there was someone out there a little like me in that they were perturbed and didn't have much of anything to lose right now. I'd certainly give an actual abuse victim moral support at least. And if I was a person who could testify in order to strengthen the accusers case I would. It might be interesting to consider who might be accountable for NOT BEING WILLING TO TESTFY TO THE ABUSE THEY WERE A PARTY TOO. For instance one could consider how God might deal with someone who refused to tell the truth, or some other ethical frame of reference I guess. (edited for spelling) (added in editing) One thing for sure, do not expect The Way International to tell anyone the truth about their money. I'm fairly certain that the #1 in TWI only tells the #2 as much as necessary. The training as to that manner has been going on for a long, long time. What....you think the Board would advertise their millions?! Not very likely. I think that they have just become that good at hiding their scuminess. They've only had decades to practise after all. <_<

Naw, no tar and feathers with me Dave. Even though I get the "tar and feathers" comment the humor just doesn't seem to be working for me right now, sorry. I guess it is possible that I do not see the need as it really is. Even though I have been irked to varying degrees by the poster who was oftentimes boasting that there had been no lawsuits that have resulted in convictions against TWI I hadn't thought this thread to be as much of an emotional reaction to that poster as a thread that dealt with real possibilities. Thanks Dave. _______________________________ I'm certain that for much of the abuse that I've read about here at the Greasespot that a lawsuit is a just and reasonable response. And while I have heard you all being taunted for most of the time since I've been here about this "No successful lawsuits" situation and have sought to minimize the adverse effects of the bullying that you all were having to listen too. I did not wait to set up the preffered situation to make myself look like a bigshot either. I just resisted them as I found them. And I did not plan the fights I had with them with the ending already a forgone conclusion as others seem to have. Heck, that is how my former splinter group set things up. Manipulaters and cowards, every one of them. I am surprised and am somewhat of a loss. The truth is that I've been looking for new friends here for over a year with no little optomism. Now I'm not certain that I want that anymore. On one hand, if this place was anything like my former splinter group hidden judgements without any confrontation or restoration while leaving the marked one in the dark as to the real reasons would be the norm. Heck in my splinter group living and losing my family, even to judges with hidden agendas and judgements that I never have been able to speak to was my bread and butter for quite a few years. Bring it on babies, I've faced that kind of thing up close and personal to my own harm already. That is why I do not need to take any of the Greasespot bullies seriously from any side. But as annoying as some as these bullies have been to me, and many of you have seen my reactions to them I FIND THEM TO BE MUCH EASIER TO DEAL WITH AND EVEN REFRESHING IN COMPARISON TO THOSE WHO JUDGE WITHOUT HAVING ANY COURAGE TO SPEAK TOO ME ABOUT THE ISSUES. On the other hand, if anyone else who has taken up such a fight and already lost everything they had, only to do their best to come back swinging, those I will hear. What the heck, I'll usually hear darn near anybody who speaks the truth the best they know it out of concern. Every other mindset that I know of is annoying at best, and evil at worst. And for those who boast of lost fights while maximizing their networking skills, I am not impressed. Isn't the how the old board of trustees at the Way International functioned. Heck yeah they did. The networked and schemed to win politically. And it ends up feeling like you are facing a wall of silence and many of you had your lives wrecked by networking, manipulative, and cowardly leaders just like them. Before you even knew how scummy they really were, they had you beaten. You were set up by real bastards. Boy, I sure was looking for more forthright people here. While in any exchange likes and dislikes are inevitable to develope, in my mind it seems most reasonable that there would be someone who wouldn't be satisfied with treating any brother like a mushroom. (I mean keeping them in the dark and feeding them sh_t.) _________________________________ As to the lawsuit possibility, why would anyone want to dismiss it out of hand or ignore it as a possibility for anyone else? I can think of several honest reasons to dismiss it for one's self but I can think of no good reason to dismiss it out of hand for absolutely everybody else in the world. The reaction that I am most concerned about is misplaced Christian love that is ignorantly driven by TWI stooges in order to lead us away from considering the possibility. I can almost hear their dismissive platitudes that used to be a weak point to every one of us. I am certain that TWI would not like this topic on the table. Heck, I think those scumdog millionaires would be content with EVERY OTHER TOPIC THAT THE GREAQSESPOT POSTS, IF ONLY THEY COULD KILL THE TALK CONCERNING TAKING TWI MILLIONS. I mean, what other thing have they proven that they actually care about besides the money, absolutely nothing, that's what. And as far as the scumdog Millionaires go, they are bastards and no bretheren of mine. If they have a change of heart let them give up their money and confess the truth of their scuminess. Let them learn to help the one's that they've hurt and take full accountability, and until then I'll count them as bastards and not as any bretheren of mine. So if I had an actionable case against TWI I'd sue their ASSEtS off with a clear conscience, I'm just saying. Where does it say we can't take bastards to court!?

I have no doubt that many TWI leadership had the contacts and the discipline to do qwell for themselvs after TWI. But doesn't anyone know which people are still suckling the rotten teat of the TWI Scumdog Millionaires. I KNOW ENOUGH TO ONLY WONDER, BUT MANY OF YOU KNOW MUCH MORE THAN ME. How about you share what you know with the rest of us less informed ones. I think that many of us would like to know more.

Dear Potato, I know that many of you have been considering this matter for years. And in comparison I am a late-comer to the Greasespot. I expect that many of you have various considerations on this subject as it relates to everybodies own experiences for sure. One thing I can be clear about is that I have absolutely no personal intrest in the possibility of sueing TWI or specific ministers for abusive behavior. But I believe that there are people out there who may have suffered such terrible abuse at the hands of TWI that they should consider this option. And it may be that as TWI insiders how they will or have gotten the shaft from the Scumdog Millionaires that the potential for brave souls who used to partake in the pattern of abuse might now be willing to testify. How can any one of us say for sure unless we lay the cards out for TWI victims to explore. And while it may be that any given individual might upon examination find that their case is not actionable they may be better of for having explored the option. It seems possible to me Potato that this thread might be able to focus on HOW A LAWSUIT MIGHT BE SUCCESSFUL. Who knows what might happen when another Excathedra might meet up with another ex- Mrs. John Lynn for instance. Take Care and God Bless Potato ____________________________________ To the rest of the Greasespotters, Have we knowledge of every TWI abuse victim? Would you like abuse victims to be able to have your wise councel on how such a lawsuit might be successful? Have we made up our minds that nobody can ever do it? Maybe the TWI bullying has hit you deeper than you know if you think this is a bad idea. I know that anyone who still thinks like TWI leadership will not like the idea of posting hopeful possibilities on this thread because what they were trained to do was to micromanage peoples' lives, not empower them. Sometimes I wonder how many Greasespotters think like that without even realizing that they can be judgementally controlling. What type of lawsuits have worked before? What did it take? Are we too timid to help abuse victims get some justice or are just too weak and/or old? Would you help abuse victims get justice for themselves or maybe we'd all prefer to let someone else decide these things for us. Maybe some of us are still wayfers in our manner? Maybe the Greasespot should be taken over by the big names and we could let them call all the shots for TWI abuse victims. After all, they did such a good job of controlling things and being the bigshots before, just as TWI taught them. I'm sure we could find people to tell abuse victims what kind of justice they can or cannot fight for, just like TWI has. OR INSTEAD,MAYBE THEY SHOULD BE GIVEN ENOUGH INFORMATION RIGHT HERE AND NOW TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES!

This is a link to the two posts that have me considering what if anything can still be done about TWI. After I read these I thought that it would be nice if they'd get their ASSEtS sued off.

This is just a link to the posts that got me thinking. Just click on the arrow to read them.

I think nearly all of you Greasespotters know more about the various TWI lawsuits than I do. But I must confess that I would to God... that someone would sue the ASSEtS off the Scumdog Millionaires of TWI someday. Maybe we could help potential plaintiffs by sharing any knowledge we might have of what would work. I know that abusive ministers in other denominations have cost their denominations millions in reparations and punitive damages after all. I've heard of lawsuits here that were settled. O.K. I guess, I never was in there shoes. But I (not so) secretly would like to see a civil or criminal guilty verdict against TWI. And some people have pointed out here that that has not happened. How about it folks, can any of you help potential plaintiffs that were victims of TWI abuse with wise councel of how his could be successful. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE SCUMDOG MILLIONAIRES LOSE THEIR MILLIONS. If there is not this type of justice in this life, I'm looking forward to the next. But a guy can be a victim of wishfull thinking too. I just think it is real neat that this exersize in wishfull thinking could inspire real TWI victims.