JeffSjo

That's o.k. brainfixed, I did not take your response that way. But I appreciate you clarifying what you meant nevertheless because even though my first impression of you is that you are a stand-up person I've been around long enough to know that in spite of my impressions that might not be the case. And if you did by chance come back with some kind of "anger is always bad" kind of thinking...well...then we might have had to take the conversation in that direction for a little bit, huh? T'so.k. with me, I won't give you any flak about feeling like that at all, not here or anywhere. For me, these things need to flow out from our insides like a river of cool, clear water to be worth anything anyway. And even though our basic worldviews about these biblical topics seem vastly different it seems that we do agree about the very same things as it pertains to TWI history, at least as it pertains to your last paragraph. I think it is great that you give the the same space to work these things out for myself that I would give to you. If you ever feel like you are being tread on here at the Greasespot cafe, the mods have had a good history of stopping it IMO if necessary. But then dealing with such things is more or less a regular part of life to.... Take care and God bless, JEFF p.s. Your warning may prove valid at some point, but I've already seen a teeney little bit of that in my life already, and it was very up close and personal then. Relatively speaking, the Greasespot is a piece of cake.

I was reading 1 Co, ch. 15 the other day. And I counted four uses of the word "resurrection." And the number of times that the apostle Paul used some form of the word "rise" in terms of the dead rising was too many for me to have the desire to count. But it is clear that Paul was teaching about "resurrection" whenever he mentioned the dead rising. 1Co 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. And IMO verse 42 plainly shows that the context of this verse is the resurrection. The last trump, after the first six I might add, check the book of Revelation if necessary. ____________________ Now this is how I remember Wierwille attempting to finesse the matter in this chapter. 1Co 15: 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Wierwille pulled us back to Rom ch. 8 where Paul said we have the firstfruits of the spirit. And then in order to prove his mastery of this section said that we need to add a comma to the translation so that it read "Christ, the firstfruits; afterward those that are Christ's at his coming. Then he said we are the firstfruits. So that in his opinion was the greatness of God's Word to us. WE ARE THE FIRSTFRUITS!? Well I suppose anyone can go to Rom ch 8 and pull one verse out of context and off topic to prove a point, but that is unsound IMO. Or, instead, we could simply believe verse 20: "But now is Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." Wierwille took the phrase "firstfruits" only three verse after that phrase is taught as Christ and went aaaallll the way to Rom 8 to prove his point. Well.....I can go to 1Co 16:15 and say that since the household of Stephanas is called another sort of "firstfruits" that I think that 1Co 16:23 is refering to Stephanas..... Now I would be the very first one to admit in all seriousness that would be stupid, but to me it makes as much sense as Wierwille flying aaalll the way over to Rom ch.8 to prove his point. At least I privately interpreted 1Co 16:23 from the same epistle. ___________________ And concerning Paul's manner, how many times did he talk of striving to obtain the prize in terms of being in the good graces of the Lord Jesus when he is raised, or when he sees the Lord? Quite a few I think. I can supply a list. How simple it becomes once we realize that Paul was striving to obtain the resurrection of life instead of the resurrection of judgement. But if TWI doctrine was true and the gathering together was for all without exception for our blessing then why oh why would Paul have needed to strive at all if it was a gimme for him....? Phil. 3:10-14 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made comformable to his death: If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Bretheren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things that are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let's see, as it pertains to his resurrection what could Paul have been striving for......HHHMMMM.....? IMO it is very, very simple if we believe that what our Lord taught the Apostles applied to the Apostles. It seems they thought it applied to them..... It seems scripturally likely that Paul did not want to be cast into the "outer darkness", or perhaps be tossed aside for burning, or perhaps he didn't want to be counted among the virgins who the Lord wouldn't open the doors of the kingdom for, or maybe he didn't want to be kicked out of the wedding feast for wearing his own garments, or maybe he didn't want to be among those who could only watch as many came from the east and the west to eat with Abraham in the kingdom, etc. etc. etc. It's not like there are only a few exhortations about this stuff... (edited for spelling and a little added for clarity)

Dear Brainfixed, Let's see how you do with a round of "How many conversations at once." :) At least with this medium you can consider the matters in your own time. When I first read your post concerning what do do concerning anger was think something like, " Why should I think about my anger, it seems to be working fairly well for me so-far." Then I thought,"I would just get lost in myself and thinking about it could just numb me into some kind of inaction, instead of being able to deal with things at this site that rightly deserved anger. Then I remember how a while back I shared with another poster that for me, anger can at times become enjoyable as a kind of emotional high, so-to-speak. Both sides of my family have a fairly pronounced anger type that seems to run in them. And if I had a full dose of both sides it would probably make me out of control. Then I remembered that there was a scriptural saying about us being slow to anger. Then I remembered another that exhorts us to not sin because of our anger. Then I remembered another one in the neighborhood of the first one that reminds us that a man's anger does not produce righteoussness. I'm not sure where all this is going, but in the mean time I may have to be content with my determination to evaluate the consequences of expressing my anger on those around me. You know, thinking to my self,"Now what did that produce in terms of fruit?" Of course having a friend or friends that might speak directly to that with me might help too.....duh. But even though anger is a dangerous roll to get onto, I think that at times it can actually produce good things, just not nearly as often as we may like to think, pehaps. And as I considered some of the things that move me toward anger I was surprised to find out that compassion and sorrow for the offenders (From my perspective only that is) was there too.

Hi Dot and Wordwolf, I am hurting too much to go to work today, and I am noit sure how long I'll be able to bear this. But it doesn't seem too much different sitting at the library vs. sitting at home. Here goes...... Dear Dot, Going back to your first post where you asked us what we think about the donkey. The donkey took one parable and built quite an aggressive sharing based on that. And while I happen to agree with a lot of his sentiment I do not like his tone as I shared before. And about parables. They are extended similies. And the correct application is that something is LIKE something else. And I feel that when we read too many details into a parable we tend to fall into error. Or in donkeys case, he may or may not be right. IMO without further consideration it is virtually a "flip of the coin" at best as to whether or not we are correct with the things that we can read into any parable. For instance, there is another parable right after the one that donkey refers too in Matthew ch. 13, Verses47-50. (KJV) "Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to the shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." In this parable the good and bad fish are gathered in the same net. Then the good are put in vessels and the bad are cast aside, then they are burned up. So all I had to do to question the order of the judgment and/or gathering in the first parable is to keep reading a little bit to find another parable that doesn't seem to line up with the first one if we read into them both what is in my opinion only the same amount. I believe both parables to be true, But I think that what is needed is more consideration of the matter. It is enough for me to believe it to be true that both parables are descriptions of what that day will be like. ______________________ This one seems like topically crucial verses to me. The Lord seems to lay out his criteria fairly simply. John 15:5&6 (KJV) I am the vine and ye are the branches: He that abideth in me and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. So when I'm looking at a parable I tend to look for other verses that speak directly to the same topic to look for understanding. For instance, how directly does John 15:5&6 apply to the parable of wheat and tares.? I'll look at them both and then consider. _______________________ But I Feel very strongly about this one thing right now. Whether it was faulty theology or just covering up Wierwille's perversions, TWI was FOOLISH and UNSOUND in mocking "Red Letter Christianity", even unto their own destruction. Heb 1:2a Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son,... Heb 2:1-3 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward: How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation: which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; or perhaps the strongest warning of all... (But in the epistles their are many strong warnings, but there is much more tenderness and mercy towards the church, lest we become bullies) Bit I am referring to The Way International and their fruit here. Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing: whose end is to be burned. ______________________ Dear WordWolf, Please feel free to offer your feedback. Even though I intended that last part to Dot, I'm almost done here because I'm not doing well. But my perspective as to you post is that it is too huge for one thread. As I read, many things came up that seemed worthy to me of deserving it's own thread. But as I tend now to read the gospels as directly leading to the things stated in the epistles, and I believe the Apostles were working directly from the things that the Lord said, I think it to be more appropriate to prove that the gathering together is not the same as the resurrections. The direct tie-ins seem abundant to me now where before I separated them. Perhaps I may be able to show the many things that seem to DIRECTLY relate to me and the abundance of things that fit will outweigh the few points that can be construed (IMO) to make them appear to be separate events. But I don't say that as any insult to you, just sharing how I see it now. I'm more than willing to change back if it can be shown to me that the scriptures plainly teach it to be so. JEFF

That sounds good to me Wordwolf. And while there are doubtlessly many scriptures that could speak directly to the biblical view of reincarnation one of my favorites that seem to bring a bit of gritty realism to the discussion is: Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,&10 (KJV) "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." What I am heavily considering in this topic is to be wary of speculation. It is one thing to read a verse and say, "Since this is so then I think this fits too." vs. "The scriptures plainly state this". I hope the sentiment is clear anyway. I think you may be right on that point. But what can we do but seek to handle the scriptures honestly no matter people's reactions. Sounds good to me I haven't worked this yet, but it seems clear enough to hear you say it. Well said WW, and while we differ on this at this point I am enjoying the read. The way I see it as you share it is the some are protected from God's wrath. So while there is still much to consider I feel that God's wrath is equivalent to destruction. And while tribulation is intense, it is entirely different than destruction. In a few epistle scriptures we are even promised tribulation. And while that might not be the same as the "Great Tribulation" that the Lord spoke of, it still is not the same thing as destruction either. So while the scriptures plainly say that we are saved from wrath though him, I do not think it says that we are saved from tribulation, even the "Great tribulation". Frankly, the Lord told his disciples that if those days were not to be shortened that no flesh would be saved. That whole 'last trump' business seems key to me. The seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation follows six pretty intense trumpets and no small trouble for human kind in general. But the wrath of God seems to me to be part of the events concerning the seventh trump. Dear Dot and Wordwolf, I am facing my limitations right now and here it is in a nutshell. I have very limited computer time and I cannot spend enough time on the computer to analyze your posts, let alone the other sites that you both gave us links too. But with the limited time I have left I will do my best to write this info down so that over the rest of this weekend I can put together a more thorough and thoughtful response. Everything so far was off the top of my head as this is the first chance I have had to really look at your posts. For the rest of the weekend it'll just be my list that hopefully do a good job of covering the content of your posts and my Bible and concordance. it seems like a very huge topic and I hope to God that we may due this topic justice. Take care and God bless. JEFF (added in editing) Hooray, I just figured out how to print this topic. I'll see y'all on Monday.

Dear Dot, As I've considered this matter over the last few days I've realized that as your Bapacostal minister friend I am challenged with the whole concept of the 1000 years between the two resurrections in Rev. ch. 20. And even though I am anxious to dig into Wordwolf's posts I feel this point of yours is too huge to bypass. An tremendous amount of speculation and supposition has been made over this "1000 year reign" of Christ with his saints for centuries. And much of our more recent considerations; in the movies even; have been built upon these verses. If they are an addition to the text that simplifies an awful lot for me. But I will not permit things being easier for me to determine all by itself to persuade me as it pertains to the issues of whether or not it is a legitimate part of the scriptures. I'd rather admit that I do not understand something than ignorantly refuse any scripture. But this particular issue seems huge to me. Without these verses being genuine, well, frankly, an awful lot of future speculation can be quickly eliminated from our consideration. And it would IMO quickly revolutionize much fundamentalist theology. If your minister friend has anything more than his own reasoning to go on as it pertains to these scriptures I would absolutely be interested to hear or read it. But in the mean time it seems to me that their is a lot of good things to consider here that, God willing, we may be able to gain some ground in. (Edited for spelling and grammar) P.s. I am currently giving the sites that you show in post #3 a look-see. A lot of info is their as it relates to your pastor friend's views Dot. Anyhoo, I'm a lookin.

I hope that I can figure out how to print this in the next five minutes Wordwolf. Thanks and I'll get on this soon.

Dear Brainfixed, (Yes I do get it, haha, it seems like a real good avatar name to me) Please do take your time if you read my thread in the "My Story" section. And if it seems hard to take in for whatever reason then please don't read any farther. I put it their hoping to help. And I'm really glad that you've found help and feel that you have been learning and learning to overcome the effects of your experiences. From personal experience and even within certain posts that were more common even at the Greasespot a year or so ago I picked up how TWI leadership used the phrase "victim mentality". They usually used this phrase to make their victims shut up about them being victimized. It seems that any legitimate complaints of abuse that was being done was hid by some of the things that have already come up on this thread and the complainers were also tagged with the label of being subject to "victim mentality". I find the use of this phrase so far in this thread to be much, much better. So in other words while the accused complainers with the "victim mentality" tag they were in truth building victim mentality in folks!? That seems almost too much to take in for me right now. And because they so twisted the scriptures to their own purposes they may not have even realized what they were doing. I guess anyone still breathing has a chance to live and learn, but at times I've been feeling fairly angry about it all I guess. I really like the thread and the conversation.

This is relatively short but let me explain where it comes from. Yale University press has published a modern spelling edition of the 1534 Tyndale new testament. And this is the paragraph that serves as William Tyndale's prologue to the book of Philemon... "In this epistle St. Paul showeth a godly example of Christian love. Herein we see how Paul taketh poor Onesimus unto him and maketh intercession for him unto his master and helpeth him with all that he may, and behaveth himself none otherwise as though he himself were the said Onesimus. Which thing thing he doth not with power and authority, as he might well have done: but putteth off all authority and whatsoever he might of right do, that Philemon might do likewise to Onesimus, and with great meekness and wisdom teacheth Philemon to see his duty in Christ Jesus." ____________________________ When I compare this manner to kindly appearing but privately viscous Wierwille, or the thuggish and creepy Martindale, or my sociopathic former splinter group leader they all seem to fall far, far short of Paul's example. My former splinter group leader once spit on a man who fell asleep during one of his sharings. And even though I did not witness this event my twig leader reported the event as if it were a good thing during fellowship. I'm certain that both these thugs enjoy seeing people squirm but probably would never publicly admit it. And it never seems like I can think about Paul's example in Philemon enough to claim that I've made Paul's manner my own. But I do gladly consider it an unchanging example which to aspire to. And I really, really feel for those who have been so beat up by TWI thuggery that that is all they tend to see, even in the bible. gentle, gentle.....

I think that I've come to be much more comfortable around people who know how to choose for themselves when to submit for "everyone's own good" as "everyone's own good" applies in any given situation. But I am very uncomfortable with folks who just assume others should submit to them. And when it becomes bullying instead of strictly a practical situational concern I...just...may...figure...out...how...to...object...to that state of affairs. And when it is more of a doctrinal issue as it is in TWI instead of being based on entirely practical concerns it seems that the door is wiiiiide open for it to become abusive.

Dear Wordwolf, If you care to proceed I'll be happy to work from your list of scriptures and points. And I am most happy to take it from there to see what developes. It will definitely take me more time to put something together to start this than it would you to do, I'm sure. I will do my best to do so if need be. Take care and God Bless. p.s. Of course anyone feel free to contribute. This is an open forum after all. (edited for spelling)

Hi Brainfixed and welcome to the Greasespot Cafe. I've seen the likenesses betweeen an abusive family relationships and my splinter group experiences too, and I think you make a very good and valid comparison. My splinter group I share a lot about in the "My Story" section and if you click on the arrows at the top of my quotes you will go back to the original thread that they came from. If you don't feel like doing that it's perfectly fine with me. But all quoted texts are just like that here, just click on the little arrow at the top to see the original thread that they came from. And for many people here there seemed to be a hand in hand type relationship between abusive families and Way International abuse. I hope that you enjoy posting and reading here. Take care and God bless, JEFF

Dear Dot, I cannot now imagine why I haven't looked at this thread till now. But I am looking forward to seeing what developes. What do I think of "The Donkey"!? I went to the "contact page" and found that it was not really a contact page at all. And "The Donkey" said that there was one of two reasons anybody would click the contact page at all, but in all honesty Donkey was completely wrong about me. I clicked the contact page to continue to look and evaluate the site. And to be perfectly blunt, Donky's listing it as a contact page was not true and neither of his reasons for me clicking on that page were true either. So in just his/her contact page I am certain that donkey was both misleading and mistaken. But even though I do not believe that someone who is misleading and mistaken on their contact page has any business taking such an aggressive tone with much of anybody, I do believe the issues are good to consider. And even though I now believe that the gathering and the resurrection are the same events and not similar events as Wierwille taught, I will be happy to see what developes, especially with Mr. Wordwolf around to go through these things with. But this is just off the top of my head. I think I should do a little reading and thinking now. I might even write down a scripture reference or two myself.

Dear BOWTWI, I don't think my boy understands that there is a real, live person at the other end of this communication. That's o.k. with me, I'm not going to push him. But let me say that I am happy that you've responded to my boy, and thank you for that. At least I can understand it that my six year old does not understand or is interested in the real live people here, but he is six, and doesn't just act that way... :ph34r: :lol: Take care and God bless Bowtwi.

Since I responded before Zoe, I feel you are due a little more from me. I'm going to pass on your suggestion for now, but if other Greasespotters are inspired I'm certain it could lead to a real lively thread. But I would sure be willing to hear you share why this is important to you. Take care and God Bless, JEFF

But toward the end point of my splinter group experience I begged my ex-wife to go to some kind of couples threrapy with me. I think you and I were at the wrong end of the same disease Potato. (edited for spelling)

As I've considered this thread I've considered it likely that the fairly popular public sentiment that relegates people who sue others to some kind of immoral staus may come up. And while I clearly understand that there are frivolous and damaging lawsuits clogging up the U.S. legal system already I have no problem considering anyone who suffered at the hands of TWI as a possible candidate for a just lawsuit. Families were lost in some cases. Livelyhoods were lost in others. Some abuse victims chose suicide. Others have suffered years of aftereffects in some kind of self destructive behavior best treated by proffesionals. I refuse to accept bullying that is directed at any of these potentially worthy lawsuit litigants if it is a possible course of action for any of them. And for the bullying that is so subtly done that the bully can even claim deniability, I will simply remember it, period. I wish that there were more people who participated in the events of the lawsuits that shared there experiences more fully here at the Greasespot Cafe. There seems to be some discussion of the lawsuits, but few substantial and specific stories that seem to have any more depth in them than just a self-serving war story. Now I have "fishing tales" that I can tell of my own life events too, but these fishing tales that I can tell about my own experiences are things that amuse me and they are generally not about serious topics. Frankly most of them are stories about some foolishness of mine, and not so much about my so-called heroism, that is if I chose to go that route. But as I've stated my feelings about TWI abuse victims who show there genuine bravery by sharing them at the Greasespot, I will not be budged if I chose to feel sympathy and support for genuine abuse victims who chose to go with a lawsuit to get their justice. And I will refuse to give in to cowardly and subtle put downs toward anyone who finally decides to share their own lawsuit experiences for everyone elses benefit either. I will HAPPILY dance that dance too if anyone decides to share. Please, please share..... (edited for grammar)

Willie is here today. Here goes. __________________________ Hi this is Willie. __________________________ This is Jeff again, my boy is in story hour now. Maybe he will say more later.

Dear Zoe, I'm waiting for something from you to give this thread some specific direction, since it is your thread and all. But since the text has a heavy Jewish flavor as did the writer of the original text of the book of Romans maybe you would like it to head in that direction. After my splinter group disaster I found tremendous blessings in a little ministry with Messianic Jewish doctrines. And it served to help me see that TWI blew it with most everything Jewish as it pertains to now too. Not to mention a better application of the law and the gospels. So I think it could be fun to have another go round with this topic in your thread if you wish. Just maybe if you saw fit to give a little bit of yourself along with the text it would help us all go somewhere with this thread. I could just plow ahead with what I think fits of course, but I don't have any idea if that leaves you on the sidelines of your own thread. JEFF (edited for grammar)

Thank you leafy. I have it now. This one forced me to copy and paste for the first time ever....Yeah. I must "right click" again sometime soon.

(edited until it worked correctly.....sigh)

One thing that I really, really like about imagine's first post is she posted from a POSITION of humility, as it opposes pride. Many prideful people are more than capable of telling others that they are prideful because they disagree. TWI was deceived in it's group think into thinking it was o.k. to subjegate others by calling them prideful and then requiring them to submit. Hence the leadership especially seemed to get ever more prideful and abusive as time went on. The most insidious attacks in my former splinter group was when the leadership questioned one's pride in that smarmy, and arrogant TWI manner of calling one's pride into question whenever anyone seemed to be thinking for themselves. In these circumstances even the scriptures themselves were lowered to their level and were used as a tool to subjegate others. I feel that this behavior may be more common in contemporary Christianity than many may be willing to consider, and I think that the ramifications of deluded group think that is enforced through the means of quelling all healthy discussion by calling folks to humility is frightening, whether it happens in a church, a family, or even a web-site. THE REASON WHY I LIKE IMAGINE'S FIRST POST SO MUCH IS THAT IMAGINE SHARES ABOUT PRIDE AS IT RELATES TO SELF, AND NO OTHERS. But I think that anyone coming from TWI is more than entitled to not be beat up in regards to these things as they learn to find their own voice. No voice is without it's own inherent significance after all. Pride vs. humility considerations should be limited to self first, lest we fall prey to another prideful and deceptive group think perhaps. Or maybe fall prey to another prideful abuser who only seeks to lift themselves up. Or even worse just become insufferable little turds that can't see past the end of our own nose. I'm just saying, with our unique TWI history, this topic can be tricky still. Take care and God Bless.

That is an absolutely huge topic and I hardly know where to start. In Tyndale's prologue to the book of Romans he shared that he felt that someone could study that text every single day of their life and never know it well enough. But I am am wondering Zoe, what is the source for your text? It might take me a week to simply type it. JEFF

My maternal grandfather was very old fashioned in many respects. But as far as women goes he taught me a huge lesson once. When we were discussing submission we also discussed children and the marriage relationship. He told me that in the old days that women worked side by side with their husbands and also worked just as hard or harder sometimes than the men. When it came to the day after day, back breaking labor of clearing fields, or planting and harvesting them, chopping firewood, tending to the animals, or tending to the children that the women he grew up around were just as worthy of respect as the men were. And he also thought some of the TWI attitudes that I had learned were b.s. (Except when he told me that he didn't abbreviate anything.) I don't ever remember him buying into even one of my lame excuses for my own faults either, even though I never doubted his love. I am fairly certain that he would have thought Augustine's example was b.s. too. He never, ever excused the bullying of any woman. And I always knew that when he told me that I'd be answering to him for any misbehavior along these lines that he meant what he said.

So in my last post I shared that I was wondering how "deeply" satan had entered the hearts of Ananias and Saphira. And after I remembered what Geisha had reminded me of earlier in this thread I had my answer to this question. Peter said to Ananias,"how is it that Satan has so FILLED your heart.....?" When I remembered this I then recalled a picture of two young wrestlers at my boy's wrestling banquet. During the slide show I saw a picture of one boy taking down the other. The boy that was doing the taking down had shot into the other wrestler to get his shoulder right at the other boy's hip and his arms were wrapped around the other one's legs too. It was a great picture. The boy that was about to be taken down had his center in the other boy's complete control and his position was so precarious in the other boy's grasp that the take down was a forgone conclusion. When I saw this picture I looked at another boy's dad and said in the correct wrestling lingo, "Boy, he's in deep", meaning that the boy that was about to take the other one down had shot into the other boy's center so deeply that his take down was inevitable. And while I was wondering how deeply Satan had entered the heart's of Ananias and Saphira I remembered that Peter had said that Ananias' heart had been FILLED BY SATAN. I think that it fits to think that Satan had shot into them deeply and their take down was easy once Satan had no more use for them, after Peter caught and confronted the scheme. What can I say, for me this is now the best understanding that I have of this record and I'm not holding anything back..... But let me say that TWI leadership as a whole had the beams of strife, ambition, and/or lust in their eyes to such a huge extent that it seems clear to me that they could only succeed in ruining the consideration of these weightier matters of the scriptures for many of us ands they definitely seemed to me to only having succeeded in poking many of our eyes out while pretending to competently remove our splinters.