JeffSjo

Dear Twinky, It is really good to hear that you think of me as a friend. And within the parameters of anonymity that is good here at the Greasespot, what you are saying makes perfect sense to me. I guess in certain ways I may be old fashioned. Real people with names, flesh and blood, lives with challenges, families, children and grandchildren for some, heartbreaks and joy are some of the things that I would expect in something that might develope into real friendship. Real people will always be my first choice. Then other times I simply wonder what big name I might have a go-round with. Other times I simply wonder if I have already heard of any of you Greasespotters. Two different posters have already offered me the names of another poster each. And I will simply not act on any second hand info because I feel that would be violating the anonymity policy of the Greasespot Cafe. Besides, how the heck would I know that they were not just testing me. And as far as the whole dating thing, I wouldn't reject that possibility but most of the time when I'm here I feel that I have other fish to fry, so-to-speak. It sounds all good to me friend Twinky.

Even though you all seem to have thought these things through for yourselves sometimes I just look at the hits on my profile and think, "All that and not one real live person with a developing relationship.....WTF." I do admit that I have certainly jumped in with both feet. Sofar no trouble for me. But I'm certain that it may simply be that I am fairly far out of the realm of influence for TWI and my former splinter group. I do know that my former splinter group learned to not be direct with me, and with others I've seen how very good they became at poisoning somebodie's rep behing their back. Sometimes it seems like even a little trouble that is up front and out in the open would seem a little refreshing compaired to the years of behind the back poison I had to deal with.

That would have been a good one chockfull. If I hadn't had been fighting to save my marriage I might have fired back aggressively in the moment too. But one of the things that they tried to provoke me to do was fire back like that. It would have been more than enough of an excuse to kick me out at any time given the state of the group think and the glorification of the splinter group leader. They had already been angered by the fact that I aggressively shot down the concept of the leader giving me a new name. After I did that the very same couple that later moved my wife out of my house (the second time) came over to say to someone else while conveniently in front of me how much of an honor it was to be given a new name. The man actually made his distaste for me very plain while not managing to look at me or speak to me. His new name is "Onesimus." There were many days that I could only wish that firing back as you suggest Chockful wouldn't have cost me more than I was willing to lose. Now I tend not to hold back so much I think, but I guess I still tend to look for useful things to say. I just LOVE IT when a good wisecrack also happens to be useful and/or good though.

Dear Imagine, This is sometimes how I ask for clarification of a point. ;) ..... huh? (IMO there is no need to emphasize my "huh" with caps.)

O.K. Waysider, I can respect your thinking on that. But I do not plan on having regrets about my choices either. I had my reasons for not being anonymous and I don't expect any repercussions of non-anonymity on my part to override my being public. My splinter group moved my wife and son out of my house, and I want that false prophet, psuedo apostle to be very freakin clear about how I feel. I do so hope in that I am successful. :B) And besides, in most things as pertaining to TWI and "River Road Fellowship" which is located in Finlayson MN. I am pretty alone up north here. Dear Excathedra, Once you posted that you felt that you "had no friends" and I thought...OMG...the lady needs friends...and you know the rest. But thanks for clearing that up.

First of all, let me say that more than once I have aggressively defended the right to be anonymous here at the Greasespot. Usually when certain formerly regular posters were bullying TWI victims who wished to keep their anonymity. So it seems to me that if were to even imply to any one single person here that they should tell us all who you are that I would be a hypocrite or a real jerk. And in my mind those two options seem to be the least of the problematic possibilities. So, just to be clear, I in no way intend to put pressure on anyone with this thread. You all have the right to be anonymous. Paw has been clear about that. And bravo. But let me share just a little from my perspective. When I arrived at the Greasespot over a year ago I put on my profile that one of the things that I was hoping for was new friends. Nothing has changed for me. My motive was right up front from day one and I am not aware of having done anything that may even lead to any other conclusion as to my motives for being at the greasespot. If I am mistaken as to the fact that I am seeking friends, then someone would actually be doing me a FAVOR by pointing out any other appearance on my part. (gee, I hope that invitation for feedback is not to subtle, try me, please) You know what I have had from the Greasespot so far as pertaining to new friends. Well, hear it is. #1 One person who did not want me to pm them at the Greasespot anymore because pm's are not private enough. This person wanted to exchange letters and remain anonymous. Now while this anonymous letter writing had me going...HUH?...I want to be clear, this person has not wronged me or hurt my feelings at all. The letters stopped, and I intend that as a statement of fact and no more. #2 One person who gave me a phone number that may have been a store bought cell and after we had differences in our approach to non-Christians here at the Greasespot the phone calls stopped. Once again, I really liked this person, the calls just stopped. I was not wronged and I am not hurt. But I was hoping that some of you would be willing to discuss your reasons for holding back. It may be a real useful conversation, if not for anyone to read, then even just for me to understand clearly where some of you are coming from. Take care, JEFF

Dear Excathedra, Do I misunderstand your posts or are you having a probing conversation with yourself. :D

That sounds good to me brainfixed. -_- I heard on a television show once one of the characters say, "You can't think every voice in your head is God." And while it was funny in that show it seems to hold some truth for me also. It only stands to reason to me that with the abudance of puffed up people that act like they hear the voice of God while ruthlessly and sometimes subtly putting rivals down (STRIFE AND ENVY, not good....duh) not to mention that everyone who has predicted the Lord's return over the centuries has proved themselves to be false prophets, at least the thousands whose dates have already passed us by, that it is a fairly safe bet to assume that anyone who claims to hear God's voice is a liar. At least the odds are clearly in favor of the sceptics IMO. And I am someone who thinks of himself as a Christian, so don't bother cutting lose at the atheists and the agnostics here. (That is if anyone is so inclined.)

For whatever it is worth, over the course of the last couple of days I've realized that I can have my own challenges dealling with the emotion of disgust. I don't want to share too many details because other folks are involved. Suffice it to say that it seems clear to me that life can have it's disappointments. And after trying to come to terms with all that has been lost in my life because of choosing to follow TWI doctrine and then going after it in my former splinter group I can be caught up in disgust. And it has an adverse effect on me. It's just that before Excathedra brought it up I don't think that I ever considered it in those terms before.

It seems very interesting to me that you brought up disgust in this thread, dear Excathedra. Because I usually think of these disgusting things that were served up to us in TWI or more so for me in my former splinter group in terms of dealing with anger, and not disgust. But I understand that anger is a dangerous ride to be on. It can lead to much harm. And whether that harm is directed at the ones who perhaps justly deserve anger it can still have an adverse effect on me or those around me at times. Or even worse, I can possibly have some of that anger balled up in my heart and not understand exactly who I'm directing the anger at or why I am feeling it intensly in the heat of the moment. Anger can even be at worst, misdirected and self destructive. I think perhaps it may be the same with disgust, except that in the case of the emotion of disgust it may well tend to be more subtle and harder to pin down. Things were far, far from good enough in TWI, and I think the scars run deep. JEFF (edited for spelling)

Dear Wordwolf, Any feedback for me yet as it concerns my response to your thoughts concerning our being partakers of "the resurrection" as oppose to a TWI style "gathering together?" I know my response is not exhaustiver on the topic, but it seems that the references to "the resurrection" that I've mentioned in the epistles are fairly plain. But from my own experiences it seems a few simple verses can lead to exhaustive re-evaluation at times.

Dear Excathedra, Thank you for saying what it was that brought out that reaction in you. I have to admit that I was seriously wondering what your first post was all about. But it seems to me that in general it is a good policy to give folks the benefit of the doubt as to their intentions, especially when I'm looking at such a post from someone as yourself who has made a difference for me by sharing your TWI experiences as you have. And considering how I shared with you my reaction to similar appearances in a post of yours from about a year ago (even though in that case I saw that the appearance of the post was 100% my mistake) I was a little amazed at the post. But certainly from you I would be happy to hear any specific reactions to this topic from your own experiences. I already know that you shared how deep you were into TWI. And I can only imagine the inner conflict you might have felt when TWI doctrine forced you to rely on Wierwille as the authority on what is good and/or excellent when he used you so wickedly. Anyhoo, I understand why this topic may be a hard read for you. Take care and God Bless. JEFF

Once my former splinter leader yelled at someone,"It may be a good idea, but it is not GOD'S Idea!" As this was pretty close to the time that I was kicked out it had already sunk in that for him to say this was twisted and abusive.

The number of people that I know in Southern California is very likely zero. I don't know a thing about this fellowship or the issues. But after my former splinter group experience I just hope to God for their sakes that they are not going from the frying pan to the fire.

Dear Excathedra, Sorry about that not being able to read this business. Take Care and God Bless. Dear Oneophile, You know what, you are right, it should have been easy to shooy his b.s. down. But I guess being right in the middle of all this stuff with a big and bogus group think going on while trying to serve God with a clear conscience seemed at times; looking back at it that is; to have left me without the simple answers in the moment when I might have needed them. Dear DMiller and Tzai, Thanh you, I think I understand that post better now. _____________________ What is healthy that is going on right now is a consideration of what good enough really is as it may apply to different situations. In my former splinter group the whole concept of what was good or excellent was controlled by one man. And everyone else was subject to his various insane thinking patterns as he was the one proclaimed as "the Word in the Flesh." And he was offended by my making light of one of Wierwille's favorite poems. Looking back at those years it seems fair to think that with me this was a fairly regular occurance. But what should have I expected from a sociopath that taught us that Christ would send Wierwille to gather us together to Himself. gaaack! From what I've heard everyone that stayed in TWI for any length of time, espescially the ones close to top leadership, had to give up their own right to determine for themselves what was good or excellent. And whether this thinking for self was given up to Wierwille or my former chief sociopath it seems clear that the right to think for ourselves was enough of a threat to these type of bastards that we may have been subject to destructive and manipulative behavior. As far as speaking for myself it seems clear, for me it is history, not opinion anymore. But what I didn't learn until recently was that TWI was every bit as bad as my former splinter group and even worse in some ways.

It seems that there is a genuine concensus of sorts that things along that lines of "being the best" went screwy in TWI. Some of the posts mention obsession, heartless competition, and base incompetance to name a few. You all have certainly given me a few things to consider along these lines. Except pehaps just one post. :B) Dear Dave, HUH? I am marginally better with music than computers and I fully realize that is not saying much.

Do others besides me remember the poem that includes the line, "beware of 'good enough' for it is seldom made of sterling stuff"? Once in my former splinter group I made the chief sociopath mad by saying, during a work detail mind you, "sometimes good enough really is good enough!" I think in my case the chief sociopath was angered because he believed that everyone needed to be entirely dependent on his perceptions of what is good and/or excellent. Now it seems fairly obvious to me that to allow anyone else's perceptions to take full control of our own potential for evaluation only leaves the door wide..freakin..open for abuse. Looking back at TWI influence upon my life over the last couple of weeks I've been contemplating how this sentiment played out in The Way International. And this is the gist of them. Everybody was pre-programmed going into Way Corps training or darn near anything other training program to look to leadership for a truer standard of excellence that they knew themselves. Because ....lowly trainy....your old "good enough" was really just a pile of crapola! We'll now show you how to do it! Of course since leadership was to a large extent either corrupt or incompetant the results in our own lives seem to be just becoming clear for some of us. Based on other posts, some have been painfully aware of the results of TWI training for a long time. Now I suspect that since many of us had things in our life that probably could use some form of improvement this was a relatively easy thing to swallow. And I also expect that there were genuinely caring folks that were trying to help people. But looking back, with the very top leadership in the ministry being corrupt and perverse it seems inevitable that the "beware of good enough" sentiment was at least a small part of the mind games that were used to beat people down far enough to eventually get them to at least give passive assent to variious TWI abuses, if not eventually turning them into mindless automatons that actually partook in the abuse or at least enabled Wierwille (as one example) to more or less openly abuse many women. I think now, "BEWARE OF THE ONE WHO TELLS YOU THAT YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH, HE COULD JUST BE JERKING YOU AROUND!" (edited for spelling)

Dear Bruce, If contention arose with such little provocation as that I would tend to think that it would not be your problem. :B) but at least with the Bruce Wayyne handle we may need to be mindful of your hidden alternate persona. MWAAAHAHAHA!

Sure is. As far as I can remember I don't think I've heard anything that struck my heart just the same way here at the greasespot. If there had been a emoticon that simply showed one tear going down my cheek I would have picked that one instead of the showing compassion/shoulder to cry on.

Dear Wordwolf, I thought about it quite a bit before I decided to post a little bit as a continued consideration of your post. As I said before, that post has several points that IMO are worthy of a thread all their own. But I decided to post this one anyway. But let me add that I believe you are very good at reorganizing things with the "quote" feature, and if you decided to spin-off any of our discussion into another thread please feel free to do so. JEFF _____________________________ FIRE, the Lord's fire Wordwolf brought this one up, and I have on ocassion too. I CO 3:13(KJV, from here to the end of the post too.) "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." Now, since I believe that the thing's that were spoken in the gospels generally flow seemlessly into the epistles I went back to the gospels. Matthew 3: 10-12 (John the Baptist speaking) "And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge his floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Does anyone else remember how TWI taught that "the Holy Ghost and fire" meant "spiritual fire?" It was a figure of speach to TWI. "Hendiadies" if I happen to recall correctly. But after reading this the other day I thought, what if instead of meaning just one thing, John the baptist was referring to TWO diferent baptisms, or in other words the Lord would dip His people with spirit and with fire!? I Co 13:3 says that every man's work shall be tried by fire. Of course from just the context of this verse it seems to me that Paul is talking about him, Apollos, and Peter even, ministers of the Lord Jesus Christ: HIS PEOPLE. This is not talking about anybody but the Lord's servants. So for these genuine ministers I Co 3:15 holds true..."If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." After being at the Greasespot for a little more than a year I hessitate to say that Wierwille will fall into the "genuine minister" category anymore, but I am certain that the Lord will get it all correct. I'll wait for His day, and His say. When we all shall know Wierwille even as he is known. Check these out... I Pe 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:" Jas 1:12 "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." So the Apostles seemed conversant in the Lord trying their works with fire, it sounds like all will pass through that fire some day. My question is, how is that NOT a baptism, or dipping biblically speaking? __________________ Unless someone else gets into it, I'm going to have to come back here to cover the verses that talk about the Lord's fire being used for vengence and destruction. I am almost out of time today. But right now, suffice it to say that I am considering viewing the firey baptism and the vengeful destruction (II Pe 3:7 for one) through the Lord's fire to be twoo different things But what the heck, I will look at it some

T's cool Bruce. Have you received the nearly innevitable batman jokes yet?

MERCY ............

I'm still working on my response to Wordwolf's post. I haven't even glanced at Donkey's site more than the five or ten minutes that had me finishing with donkey's supposed contact page. But I did have a lot of fun going through Paul's epistles and looking for his views of being before the Lord. All I'm certain of is that I have found some of the references and they've been an interesting consideration for me. Rom 14:10 (KJV-from here on out too in this post.) "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set thy brother at nought? for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ. I remember Martindale teaching on the judgement seat of Christ. "Judgement seat" is the word "bema" in the greek. And I bet that by just typing "bema" I gave some ex-twiers a recollection or two of those times. He taught that for the faithful amoung the "Way" household it would be a type of awards ceremony the way I recall it. But when I looked at the uses of "bema" last night I found that it was used of Pontious Pilate's judgement seet when he condemned the Lord to be crucified. And Paul used it in Acts when he reponded to the local rulers that he appeals to Caesar's judgement seat. I'm certain that Martindale watered down the word "bema" when he likened it to the place where the Lord pats all the good little wayfers on their backs. But considering the things that I've learned about Martindale in the last year or so it makes sense that he'd handle "bema" the way he did in TWI. See, if I were in charge of an international ministry and had been raised up in God's Word to believe it was o.k. to systematize the sexual abuse of young women and also beat down both friend and foe at nearly every opportunity to maintain my grip on power like Martindale, I might end up watering down the significance of the "bema" too..... IICor 5:9,10 "Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgement seat (bema) of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." Prettey simple huh, IMO without the twisted Way scripture glasses. Now let me think, where in the scriptures is the truth about the "bema" recorded...HHHMMM... What could the Apostle Paul have been taught by the Lord Himself...HHHMMM... Could it have been Martindale's version of Christ's judgement seat where Martindale recieves no consequences for his evil and abusive actions.....HHHMMM... And where Martindale is actually commended for the folks that he led into his crapola!? Well, I suppose Martindale could successfully twist IICor 5:10 around like he did and fool most of us if we also happened to have been taught that the gospels don't apply to us. How convenient for Martindale. Of course he had to ignore or twist many other epistle scriptures too, like Gal 6:9,10, or ICo 9:11, or the verse from an earlier post in Hebrews 6:8, etc. etc. But as far as verses where the Lord Jesus teaches about His Bema.... and I think He'd be a better one to say how it will be than Martindale...duh. Luke 12:45-48a "But and if that servant say in huis heart, My Lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few strpes....." Now for me this verse makes sense too... IThess 5: 4 "But you are not in darkness , that that day should overtake you as a thief." Or , perhaps in the Lord's own words, ""The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him". If you read the Lord's promises of those that don't see his day coming with Paul's exhortation to not live in darkness, or, if the Thessalonian's were not in darkness concerning the Lord's judgement seat, I think it was because Paul did not water down God's Word and Martindale did, but then again, Wierwille taught Martindale all of his nasty little abuses, didn't he? ICo 13: 12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known". That goes for Paul, me, you...and Martindale and Wierwille too. As we are KNOWN OF HIM! Only believe God's Word, and not TWI doctrine...er...I mean TWI wishful thinking.

Dear Brainfixed, Take care, and do what you need to do. I hope that we get to hear from you again when these things have settled a little more for you. JEFF

Dear WG, If the computer was not cuurently blocking most of the emoticons I could give you multiple leaping laughers right now. That was too funny!