JeffSjo

Dear Shellon, There is an awful lot about the gathering that the gospels and the epistles speak of that we will just have to wait and see about. And in TWI we tended to think that our judgement was enough to decide how things will be then. But when I remember that the Lord who willingly allowed Himself to be crucified for our sins is the only one who's ideas will count I am comforted. I am comforted when I remember that if we are still breathing we have a chance to change. I am comforted when I think that the just and true one will surprise many of the rest of us when He has His say. I expect to see His glory and justice and truth in that day. I hope your bad dream goes the way of the crappy memories.

Dear Tom, I'm happy that it is working for you! JEFF

Dear Tom, As a quick response on my part, everything you say seems sound to me. But looking back at River Road Fellowship and TWI for me brings to mind one quick response. Liars and honest people handle those same scriptures and topics every day. TWI preached unity and practiced destroying those who insisted on thinking for themselves. They preached meekness but practiced highhandedness. They preached peace, but practiced warfare on people with clear consciences. etc. etc. etc. So while I have to wholeheartedly agree with the gist of what you are saying, I practice caution when hearing folks that preach these things. PEACE, JEFF

Dear Krys, Now this represents the big catch in this topic. It seems obvious to me that there must have been folks that were doing their best with the bible and folks' lives. But the culture of lies that top leadership has built on the downlow makes remaining true a very hard task. And the TWI leaven that is exposed so well here at the Greasespot is nasty. Even though it is simple for me to say that top leadership was corrupt I also remember that the kind of young man that I was makes it very possible that I might have been taken in too. So even though much seems clearer to me now, there is still the possibility of someone turning away from TWI leaven. One story in particular since I came here is how one poster was kicked out of TWI when he refused to go along with Martindale's attempt to get him involved with the rampant sexual abuse. And God only knows how much this person might have seen and/or ignored before he rejected the abuse. I am thankful he did reject it though. But then there is the whole TWI pattern that only leadership is mature enough to tell you who the good guys and the bad guys are. And true to human nature throughout the centuries, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And even though someone has made a step out of TWI there is still a whole host of issues and thinking patterns to be dealt with. Lord have mercy! (added to try to bring it back on track) Yeah I think along with potato that if all or any part of TWI fades away it will be for the best. The culture of lies that TWI built is just nasty while being deceptively loving. I would like to say good riddance once and for all. I am one of the people who came through TWI, and who am I to desire that any one person should be thrown on God's garbage fire? Regarding the organization of TWI though, I can almost smell the burnt weiners already.

I guess it is up to Potato to say if it is a side rail or not George, but until she says so I'm willing to proceed. I've seen it where the leadership shows their true colors by how they handle the scriptures too. That has turned into somewhat of a major league pet peeve for me. And you know what is ironic, the first time that I heard anyone share about that tendency of teachers and preachers was in PFAL. My former splinter group leader thinks that when Paul told the church that he "espoused them to one man" that Paul was referring to himself and not to Christ....OMG...give me the right to actually do something about it...AARRGH. That is o.k. I expect "THE MAN" (No theology, just as commonly stated..you know...the man.) HIMSELF will make it clear someday.

Dear Tater, Top leadership, it really was a culture of lies and misinformation, wasn't it? I think a big reason that I bought it before was simply because my normal tendency is to be trusting. And since I bought into the whole TWI version of how the body of Christ should operate it was easy for me to assume that if they said someone was a bad guy then that person was a bad guy. But Wierwille carefully crafted a ministry where the top leadership participated in and hid his abuses. So the were taught to ignore or excuse his vile abuses. I wish that I really knew the character of those who I trusted to judge others in God's name then. Transparency is a much safer precedent to build than a system where leadership gets vile "perks" for towing the company line and that in secret. (edited for grammar)

Dear Potato, I know exactly how you feel. I feel the same about the folks left in my former splinter group. And it is clear to me that my former splinter group leadership behavior is simply carrying out the lieing and bullying they learned from TWI leadership. I remember from my time in TWI that upper leadership sent away lower level leadership from time to time. And whether or not they implied any fault with the lower leadership one thing seems clear to me looking backing, they did not tell anything to us that I would now recognize as truth. Usually the specifics in whatever situation they were sacking them for were left vague. But the praise or poison that they told the rest of us seems now to be the only real clear message of their communication. I am betting that TWI leadership is so used to the habit of lieing dissimulation that they don't even realize what they are doing. Who knows?...maybe there is hope for them yet. But I am also certain that some are at the other end of the spectrum and actually enjoy lieing and misleading folks for self-serving reasons. If I was to be very clear as to what I think of these types I would cuss too! Considering how some people think that TWI has changed I think your post is timely and I am thankful Potato! _______________________ Dear Cheranne, It is sad to me that even though I know better now what TWI really is than ever that some folks will be taken in by nice videos like the one you linked us to.

You could be right Jim. I have a recollection, but it fuzzy enough that I already know to not be certain. This is how I recall it, and let me say that I would happy to see or post a clip but I am completely unqualified to try to post one. When I first heard about the centurion's line I was told it was John Wayne. Then when I saw a movie that had the centurion in it I remember thinking,"Hey, that was Borgnine and not Wayne!" Maybe I saw a different movie!? Maybe I am wrong about how I remember reacting. Either way, I am still thrilled by such an awesome line being done in the movie!!!

Dear Tagalong, I wish that I could agree with you as to them having changed. But because of the abundance of sharings here at the Greasespot I do not believe that they have changed anything other than their P.R. stance. For years I believed the stories about Wierwille's trip to Washington for Reagan's innaguration that came from TWI. But here at the Greasespot I heard sharings concerning Wierwille's trip that were concerning the military man that gave up his innaguration tickets to Wierwille. And it turns out that Wierwille went to one of the really minor balls amoung the many at Washington at that time. And the rest of the sharings that I read on the topic made it clear to me that in the big scheme of things Wierwille's presence there was in truth, totally insignificant. But the P.R. from TWI made it seem like Wierwille went to Washingtom as a super-conqueror and the stories that were told seemed to imply that Wierwille had an impact but in true P.R. style the didn't come right out and make any claims that could be either verified or discredited. So given that these sharings that I read here seem credible to me the only conclusion that I have left to make is that Wierwille was adept at magnifying himself with all the substance (or lack of substance) as any stage show magician.And I definitely count myself to be solidly amoung those who for decades were taken in by TWI P.R. without ever being able to take in what I now think of as "The Rest of the Story". (Thank you Paul Harvey) Until I hear absolute honest humility from TWI about their history it only seems likely to me that at best they've not changed at all except superficially. The ministry was founded by a sociopathic narcissist who only reaped what he sowed when his own children pushed him out of the "Way" into practical insignificance in his own ministry. And then Rosie threw Martindale under the bus and took power when it appeared that TWI may be held accountable for the vile things that they have always done behind closed doors. For me, I wish I could believe that TWI has changed, but TWI at it's top level and behind closed doors is run by ruthless, digusting liars that have been refusing to tell us anything that sane people would recognize as truth for decades about leadership actions IMO. So since they are still lying or dissembling at least any notions that they have changed their attitude seem to be at best superficial change for the sake of simple survival, similarly to how many poisonous cold blooded creatures try to fit into their surroundings in a manner to still function. So compared to a world wide issue such as people who willingly recruit poor, hopeless children to blow themselves up and kill other inocents, yes TWI is very minor. But IMO it is still just a poisonous reptile that is just trying to change it's colors. And yes, I am still thankfull for much of what I learned in PFAL. But PFAL's reputation that TWI promoted were lies too. And I find it ironic that the same bible that I learned about in PFAL would end up leading me to conclude that what TWI really, really is would seem to be worthy of the firey revenge that so many of the epistles speak of. (edited for spelling, a little added too,sigh...changed the format a little to make sense.))

Dear Cindy, Since you grandbabies family was expecting the pay I feel for them too. And if it were my family I'd probably growl right along with you!

And thanks to all the jokers who managed to resist the urge to respond to my "What the heck is rapture?" statement. After I thought about my question I realized that it was not hard at all to come up with any number of toungue-in-cheek responses to that one...sigh. And if it was any of you who asked it I would have probably gone their myself. But even one serious response would have been nice.....

That was a really good Nicholson Line Mstar1!

Isn't the very context of the speaking in toungues manifestation where it says, "Without love we are nothing."

For me it is a valid and vital question. Whether the experience is from my childhood or TWI; or whether it pertains to someone who presumes to speak for God or from me looking around at nature and perceiving truth, the question of "is that really God or not" seems a reasonable and sane question to ask. And because of the very personal nature of these things I am not quick to discuss them with anyone. But I must confess that it would be nice to be able to discuss them all with somebody. Heck, my former splinter group used the things that I only told my wife against me! (edited for grammar & spelling and a little added too.)

Hi Tagalong, While I see your point as far as big, world shaking issues vs. TWI I find it ironic(along with many Greasespotters) that TWI promotes itself as some kind of world beating organization. I'm the first to agree with you that compared to extremist Islam that TWI is insignificant, but they (TWI) really are the ones who seem to be upset at the notions of TWI insignificance IMO. But as with any form of abuse and those who suffered through it, whether or not the abuser is insignificant or not does not have any bearing at all as to the point that the ABUSE IS SIGNIFICANT. And I have and will resist anyone who knowingly puts victims down because of their own personal agenda. And in the year-plus since I have been here it seems to me that some pro-TWI folks have made the very same point that your first post made. But since you are new here it is easy to give you the benefit of the doubt as to your intentions Tagalong. For me, it is about one's compassion for the victims. And I have seen folks who only want them to shut up. (edited for spelling and grammar)

Some of the things I have been thinking about lately have led me to conclude that whether or not a person chooses anonymity is completely irrelevant compared to the things that I consider important. A person can behave with a sense of accountability and be anonymous. A person can also be completely wrapped up in their concern for their reputation more than anyone else's welfare and be anonymous too, heck, they can even talk about how they have a reputation based entirely on their avatar name for one thing or another. I could go on and on with different examples of behaving good and bad..... but it seems to me that any motives or intents of the heart can be carried out...good or bad...totally independently as concerning one's choice to be anonymous or not. And depending on the "hot button" issues that may be motivating us that particular day it seems resonable to me to expect a person's view of "the anonymity issue" may fluctuate... I call that being human.

I haven't been doing any research or even any reading about these issues lately......sigh......I was just hoping that the considerations that Dot and WW might lead to an open, honest consideration of very important doctrinal points to me. Well, there is still time. But now I am going to toss in my perspective on these issues to see if that may break the silence... sheesh guys...how would anyone (like me) know that this is not simply "the silent treatment"? answer: Because we got back to you concerning this thread that I started or seemed to accept an open invitation to consider these things with you....duh. ________________________ I feel the issue of whether or not the scriptures concerning the "thousand year reign" being added to the scriptures is major for one simple reason. A lot of fundamentalist predictions of future events are based on these once occuring scripture. And without them a lot of things change...such as it would turn the expectation of Ezekiel's prophecies concerning the temple coming to pass into "new heaven and new earth" events and not anything that will happen on earth as we know it now. And since my tendency is to rely on what the scriptures say MORE than what I think, (what the heck, it is a good goal anyway, but not an easy one to carry out.) the issue of whether or not the scripture was added too is much more serious. For me it represents the possibility of someone messing with what I set as a goal of working from what the scriptures say; as a starting point! ________________________ And as far as the resurrection verses a TWI style gathering together..... The epistles SAY resurrection. The gospels teach of a GATHERING. IN NEITHER GOSPELS OR EPISTLES DOES IT SAY THAT THE EVENTS OF GATHERING AND RESURRECTION ARE DIFFERENT! So since the scriptures do NOT ACTUALLY SAY THEY ARE DIFFERENT it is left us to consider the matter. But since I the scriptures in the epistles teach about the resurrection and do not say to look for anything different than what is already taught in the gospels nobody has the right to say that it is commanded by God to look for anything other than what the scriptures plainly teach.....RESURECTION. Once I saw this according to the scriptures it was a DUH moment for me that made it very simple to see that I was never correct in believing that Wierwille taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century. The first century believers were taught the RESURECTION and that the events of "gathering" were as the Lord had already taught in the gospels. ____________________ ONE MORE THING.....WHAT THE HECK IS "RAPTURE"? I tend to try to stick with terminology that scriptures actually say OVER AND OVER AGAIN like RESURECTION. (edited for spelling) Have a nice weekend y'all. I'll try to get back Monday.

Yeah, sadly ironic. Pride tends to lead to insipid incompetance and unreasonable jerkiness!?

I guess for me it is easy to admit that I really like your intentions. And I've enjoyed your posts too. But lately I've been noticing how sometimes a wayfer or ex-wayfer will bring up the trinity issue. And I think that when it is done in a pointlessly divisive manner like many learned in TWI IMO it seems to me that reasong with them about what they are doing is just as necessary as reasoning with anyone else who may be elevating what they think they know over love and goodwill. But it really, really irks me when I think of all the people who were sucked into the "Wayworld" of Wierwille's only to be abused and ruined. And when I hear people still aggressively promoting their TWI beliefs I sometimes wonder if they will ever give pause to consider that the manner in which they promote their supposed knowledge has led many people to TWI only to have their lives wrecked.

This maybe just a "quirk of the day" kind of thought for me..... But I am wondering how many people might actually hear from God someday something like....."I did not tell you THAT!"

Well it still seems to me that some of these points are worthy of serious consideration too! Dear Dot, Do you have anything more specific you'd like to discuss about the possibility of the "Thousand years" being a scriptural addition? To me, that seems like the single biggest point that has been brought up on this thread so far.

Dear Cheranne, Since I hear concern for what is a real and genuine problem for people in your intentions it seems to me that to simply argue about non-related differences we have as the "Trinity" would only lack love and wisdom. And that is why I tend to reject folks that even though they may think like I do in regards to that one doctrinal point they at times have only seemed to be divisive and contrary to the real needs that I perceive here at the Greasespot.

Somebody that I know recently shared with me that their view of anonymity was that it could be some kind of game. And while this view is an opinion that anyone has the right to form I think that it is obvious that the issues here at the Greasespot neccessitate that choosing to remain anonymous is a valid option. And the most that anyone should do if they hold that view is choose to be forthcoming with their identity and leave everyone else alone. But then there is the very human manner of seeking to earn a reputation. And since that particular issue seems to me to have been at times in TWI "a disease" of sorts the most that anyone should do who holds that view as important to them should choose to be anonymous and then leave everyone else alone. I think only the Lord will ever be fully able to weigh the thoughts and intents of the heart and I believe that judgement is coming some day. In the mean time I guess I just try to do what is right for me and try not to start any divisive and pointless arguments. And for those who do not believe what I do I would be very glad if they simply choose not to start pointless and divisive arguments too. I'd like to think we could get along then! (edited for grammar)

My uncle recently sent me this in an Email. And while it has some good lines it seems to me that it left out some of my favorites. The line that my uncle added was,"TOGA!" I think this line came from "The Greatest Story Ever Told." After the Lord's crucifiction Earnest Borgnine(sp?) was the centurion who said this as I recall. It came from one of those movies anyway....? "TRULY THIS MAN WAS THE SON OF GOD!" And from one of the "Star Trek" movies after captain Kirk totally kicked the big bad alien's butt that had beat up Picard, Picard saved Kirk's life because the alien still got the drop on Kirk after their fight. Picard shot the alien and when Kirk looked at him seeemingly questioning why Picard had doubled back Picard said,"CAPTAIN'S PEROGATIVE." And from the movie "Commando" Schwartsenegger's(sp?) character had dropped one of the bad guys over a cliff to his death after questioning him. And when the stereotypical pretty girl with a heart of gold later asked him what he did with the bad guy he responded in his Austrian accent,"I LET HIM GO."

Dear Cheranne, As always I enjoyed the song and the slide show. Didn't you do that one before? T's o.k., I enjoyed it either way. And if Jesus Christ is your Lord that is good enough for me. Even with other views that might be a little different I just usually don't see any point of making a fuss over the differences. (edited for spelling)