JeffSjo

Rascal, I know we can all evolve and hopefully change for the better, heck, it's part of life, so that's o.k. You sound sore at me, and when I saw the "-2" on your initial response to me I did my best and now it reads "-1". So that's how I thought about your post. I was serious about jumping in with you too! I may be wrong but I can make an edumacated guess on where the "-2" came from.

Hey Rascal, Last night I could only be on line for a couple of minutes so I had no time to respond. I LAUGHED AND LAUGHED ABOUT THE VERY FACT THAT YOU WERE STEPPING IN TO HELP ME DEAL WITH SOWERS 09. I certainly know that you know how to swing the shovel around when you feel it necessary, as a matter of fact, when I first got here one of the things that I liked the very most here at the Greasespot was how you fought it out with certain bullies. And yesterday I really feel that it might have been nice to have a friend near. Yes I was a little upset, so I'll take you words as such, a calming influence. HERE GOES THE LAUGHTER AGAIN. I mean that sincerely Rascal, with all due respect! ROFL I remember once when we were confronting somebodie's ministerial bullying and I suggested to you that we save our point for another time and another thread. And then I could only watch as you just jumped right in and kept swinging away with your little old shovel....sigh....ROFL. So while I think you are right that it is time for me to chill out now I still find great enjoyment in this particular exchange. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA But oh yeah, on a little more serious note. If my own son grew up and actually learned that it was o.k. to bully people like S.O.W.E.R.S.09 did in that first post I'd let him have it too, and I wouldn't have held back as much as I did with Sower either. This young lad needs some immediate edumacation IMO and in a case like this I feel it is perfectly acceptable for us older gents to make it perfectly clear to these kids what they are doing. Especially when a young guy is bullying vulnerable folks. I think it is perfectly legitimate for these dumbazz kids to be told their error in a manner they have already shown a willingness to utilize. And when the issue is bullying, well, whether straight up or only implied I am usually willing to think that their cure won't come from any book lernin, if you get my drift. But as to the overall topic of the thread, I feel that many of you actually know the people involved and have been keeping up with these things for some time. So I'll gladly leave you to it. Heck, I'm interested in where this thread goes too. BUT I MEANT EACH AND EVERY WORD TOO! (added in editing) Dear rascal, I hope that you know that even though I know you don't need my help with anything else going on here on this thread, I'M A WILLIN if'n you want.

Hey Caleb, As far as your first post and my former response I want you to realize that I meant every freakin word of it! I also want you to know that I do not hold anything personally against you and my response was not an attack at you. It is just that most all of us at the greasespot has seen that "passive aggressive crapola" that spewed out of your computer in the very first post in your thread. And I guess we all have different ways of dealing with it. Here you are looking at a possible career in law enforcement and one of the first things out of you mouth (so-to-speak) is a direct threat from you that any of us may have a p!ssed of redneck knocking at our door. Well that prospect really does not frighten me. I have kept my head in more bad situations than you are years old I'm fairly certain. And I know how to deal with that "fight or flight" adrenalin rush that goes with those situations and can still manage to hold onto my poker face through it all. Let me tell you something boy, IF YOU EVER THREATEN ANYONE HEAR AT THE GREASESPOT AGAIN I WILL BE MORE OR LESS PERMANENTLY PO'D AT YOU UNTIL YOU SEE HOW VILE THAT BEHAVIOR REALLY IS. I mean what is it, do you like the idea of threatening women, kids, and people who are still recovering from the very ministry brutallity that you have already abundantly proved yourself capable of? And then even while threatening to be pounding at some kids door as an angry redneck you have the unmitigated gall to say that you want to keep things respectful? I suggest you take a real hard look at how you and your "Great man of God" use anger and threats. And if you can honestly say that threatening people who have been so badly beat up by their TWI experiences that some of us still need to find a reason every day to keep going sounds anything like JESUS CHRIST, then fine, but I know that you will not be able to justify your brutal behavior unless you have already became settled in TWI style delusion when it comes to determining who needs tenderness vs. who needs a slap in the face. I'll tell you what, go ahead and ask your best law enforcement teacher what he/she thinks of your first post. I'm betting that if you don't actually have a change of heart that they would consider it a black mark on you for the rest of your law enforcement career. You dumbazz kid! You are not practicing a biblical faith here so far. Who taught you this crapola?

Wait, as in,"don't mess wit la familia!?" Too funny. Personally I'll generally settle for not kicking the wounded. But I guess some "familia" don't really act like saints no matter what they think of themselves!

Dear S.O.W.E.R.S. Grad09, Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe! I hope that you stand is fruitfull. If it is I expect that it may not be going down exactly as you expect, but what the heck, neither of us is really in charge of results because we are just people.....huh. I've really learned to enjoy posting and some of the ways that our words can be fully considered over time and responded to. But I make no claim to fully comprehend your words but I do expect to have a little fun responding. Here goes... I am glad that you are being (for the most part, but not all the way) forthright as to who you are and what your intentions are. I find your initial paragraph to be defensive however, and in the course of open an free conversation you will find that such an aggressive defense right from the start tends to.... #1 Become a form of self fulfilling prophecy. and #2 Actually reveals weakness and #3 That many of us Greasespotters that do our best hold to the scriptures are (get ready) actually (This may blow your mind) quite fond of the Greasespotters who choose not to hold to the scriptures! and #4 Find your views of credibilty to be trite and a little simplistic. Not to mention annoying since many of us have been around and around on this well worn Greasespot path. I am genuinely interested in seeing how long you stick around and where the fellowship takes you. I respect your willingness to fight for someone you feel is a friend. I do not know V2P2 nor had I ever even heard of him before I came to the Greasespot, but when I do manage to form an opinion that I then post I won't be concerned with you at all. BRAGGING, INTIMIDATION, and BULLYING, and all the while hiding behind your anonymity.... yeah...I'm real freakin scared.(sarcasm) Oh goody, is it just me or are you presuming to think that what you do want to happen or don't want to happen will have any effect. Don't hold your breath..... Something which in my opinion and in this circumstance seems about 180 degrees from anything that I can think of out of either the Lord's mouth or Paul's. Good start(sarcasm) Mr brawler! (added in editing) I just wanna say hi! See ya around.

Thank you both for the feedback! After reading the feedback I got to thinking about these verses as they were applied in TWI some more. But speaking of fooling people..... When TWI leadership said that they were spiritual in regards to good behavior it seems obvious to me that all of us bought into that to some extent. Most all of us were some part of TWI after all. And while I think it can be a good thing in some circumstances to defer to another's judgement lest any functioning enterprise descends into anarchy, it seems very obvious now that TWI leadership's attitude of leadership was a con job. I am fairly certain that any con-man knows that if they act like they are an authority on any given topic, that some people will believe they are an authority. And while I would expect any company to have some percentage of ambitious fakers and liars ascend into leadership positions I feel that a ministry whose founder was such a nasty, viscious, and cruel man with a very convincing veneer of fatherly kindness in public will evntually descend into abuses that would tend to make the most ruthless of CEO's ashamed. WAIT, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED IN TWI, WASN'T IT! If this particular sentiment is somewhat new to any reader as it was to me not to long ago I encourage you to take some time and consider the common reports of TWI cruelty here at the Greasespot. But the biggest single issue for me (right at this moment anyway) seems to be that for many who hold onto TWI planted beliefs is that they are incapable of seeing the truth of what Wierwille's behavior made him. And while the sentiment of holding any loved one's memory in honor is a good sentiment, Wierwille's behavior IMO makes him truly underserving of such honor, and the same goes for LCM and Geer too! Alond with the abundance of still functioning TWI exleadership and their lame excuses and continued lying about the abuses they partook in. But the MOST IRKSOME single component for me in this whole picture is how former and current leadership blinds people to the truth by claiming to be spiritual people who are above our collective and individual judgements by twisting scriptures such as the one T-bone quoted to fool people into they are spiritual and/or leaders that have anyone's intrests on their heart except their own status and income. And for the sincere who still think they are correct in treating Wierwille, etc. with honor, YOU ARE UNFORTUNATE TWI SUCKERS.

Now no matter what we think of scripture, if we take what is written we can consider. Jesus Christ grew up in a small town and until his ministry started he did not aquire any particular reputation to speak of that we know. The feedback that he recieved from the religous leaders had to do with his family and not him. So if we believe the record then the Messiah grew up and nobody had any freekin idea who he was. And if any do not believe, well..... Jesus ended up being a historically noteworthy person anyway, huh? And what is recorded is that people had all kinds of opinions of him even during his ministry, but when his closest disciples said they believed him to be the son of God he told them they were blessed, because God had showed it to them. So for the most part, hardly anybody knew just what the heck was going on during his ministry. Now it seems evident to me that if Jesus had deliberately abused authority like Wierwille did that the Pharisees and Saducees would have not had a hard time seeing him for what he really was at all. After all, there seems to be no controversy among anybody about what Barabas was.

I like the little children analogy in the poem. Like who are we to say we are big enough to figure it all out? Better than us have gone before. I like that the same comparison may be found in 1Jn. If it is true that he will care for us as "little children" and we find grace and mercy in His sight, then perhaps we need not be intimidated by the giants of the age.

What do you get when you cross a rhinoceros and an elephant? Elephino!

I like what I read Tom. I just hope that in the reality of your church it all plays out with a living relationship to the Lord and the type of love, mercy, and truth that is real and tangible for every member. Perhaps unfortunately I have seen it turn very ugly in spite of being preached things that I liked hearing and agreed with. But even in my very first post I expressed a willingness to try to turn the experience to good. What the heck else can a guy do!? Dear Cman, Hardiharhar, Mr. jokey jokemeister.

Yeah that was very funny! I remember TWI preaching, "God says what he means and means what he says." It seems like in practice it went,"Let ME tell you what He meant when He said that."

However the stuff that Paul was speaking pans out in truth some things seem clear. This is not a man or woman whining about how the spouse "doesn't get them." Yeah, I suppose that learning to communicate will always be work but this phrase "judged (or discerned)of no man" is not synonymous with "she doesn't get me." And it certainly isn't synonymous with some deceptive, perverted, so-called minister who taught his own freakin kids lies in order for them to be unable to see him for what he really was.

Dear Steveo, Yeah..... The freakin Samaritan was the only one who got it right! Dear Cheranne, I hope it didn't sound like I was trying to imply anything like you were off base. I am not thinking that at all. In general, if I thought that of you I would try to bring it up directly. I meant it when I said before that it was easy for me to admit that I've liked your intentions and enjoyed your posts. JEFF Durn, I gotta go.

I can understand why you might wonder why anyone would go different or even the same direction in any circumstances Cheranne. For me, right after I got here I realized that many here had as bad or worse experiences than I have had. And no matter what I thought of their choices I would not judge them harshly for it. The TWI lies were real, real nasty and many people were hurt very badly. And almost right away I heard people that were in effect kicking the wounded instead of helping them, so-to-speak. And when I heard that I told them that to me they were kicking the wounded and they should stop it. And in another sense, I thought that since TWI was so bad for some of them that I didn't care as much about what they got into since they got out. I was just hoping that whatever they were into was helping them heal.

I think that any totally engrossing experience will rewire the brain at least a little bit. But it seems to me that all of us had different wiring schemes in place before TWI. And then our TWI rewired some of that according to our own experiences. And all of us are dealing with not just the TWI rewiring that happened a little differently for all of us, but we all need to deal with the wiring that was in place before TWI too. All in all, it seems good to me that we have seemed to find as much common ground as we have. But it seems perfectly normal, considering, that our interactions can run a little heavily toward the disfunctional side too!

Dear Bride, Even though I did resist the urge to pull out my concordance on this one, it seems clear to me that your feedback is worth considering based on content alone. So I'm just going to do a little retyping and throw it out again using "discern" instead of "judge". HHHMMM

I feel for her family. I don't know any of them but hope that they get through these things o.k. I don't really know exactly why blaming the victims happens. Whether or not it is unfortunately someone's untimely death or some other disaster (JOB as an example) it seems there are folks who insist on blaming the victims of tragedy. There is certainly more than just TWI who has organizationally blamed the one's who have passed away. And also unfortunately there are those who seem to feel it necessary to blame the ill too. Even to their face at times, heck, most of us have either spoken or heard teachings that did this exact thing....sigh. I think that if someone believes they have been immunized against these tragedies that the act of them blaming the victims falsely is much more likely. And the blame seems more likely if someone is selling a bill of goods to others that are suppose to immunize them against tragedy too. Then they have felt the need to blame victims in order to keep the money flowing in.

It seems to me like almost everything depends on the person doing the speaking. 1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. Paul said this, and he was hounded and even had entire cities poisoned as pertaing to whether or not he was up to good or not. So he took more than a little heat for speaking the things that were on his heart. Yet he was not an evil doer. Wierwille said this, and I suppose it is still true statement, but it just sounds soooo different when it comes from a man who had sociopathic and narcissistic characteristics, not to mention delusions of grandure..... oh yeah, and he abused many women and ruined many lives. So whether it is a good man or a bad man who thinks he won't be judged by anyone it seems to me that we are still free to form our own opinions about any man. And the ones who do evil may seem to win, but personally, I think eventually they will have to answer for their actions. (added in editing) A clarification: Paul was exceedingly honest about the evil things he did before he wrote to the Corinthians. Please, feel free to speak in "secular", but do not be offended if I need to ask for clarification.

Cool topic, neat links! Hey, that reminds me. Have I mentioned that I'm looking to talk to old friends in/from River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard? B.I.T.E. ME. It seems true on so many different levels.

Dear Potato, I am glad you shared what you did though. I haven't been around TWI proper for so long that I didn't even know what Rosie looked like when I came here, let alone hear of Mr. Wallace. I am eagerly looking forward to the book. I'll settle for a rough draft even. :) JEFF

After reading that last little bit there is something that I'd like to add. Since Christianity is a walk of faith and not by sight there seems to be an element of proving all things that is necessary. So for the unbeliever it is not sound to call voices, hunches, or miracles God. I do believe however it comes out in the wash that truth will pass the test of believers or unbelievers, because truth stands on it's own. So on one level there needs to be a split between those that hear God and those who don't. But on another level there is room for people with clear consciences to agree that some such statement is either true or false, no matter how they feel about God. In practice it seems to me that a little meekness and a slow fuse is a good thing on both sides of that bacic, inevitable disagreement. And a healthy sense of humor helps a lot too. But if someone chooses to believe the scriptures, then perhaps the saying, "Let God be true, but every man a liar:" may apply. As a believer I just have to root for those of you who believe in God. It seems to me that if according to this saying from Rom ch3 it is innevitable that we will find out that God is true, but at times teachers and our own selves will be wrong. Since what this verse is discussing is ourselves overcoming the inevitable judgement of God this mindset will be important to us. With our own mistakes and sin, it seems that the kind of things that are being discussed here involve years and even decades of our own lives in the working of these things out. If it is any comfort, even after the things that Job suffered he managed to come to a place where God was magnificent in his eyes. And for the folks who deny anyone hearing God, I would simply answer that whether or not you believe in the specifics of these possibilities that from a perspective of the human psyche I tend to be more comfortable around folks who see themselves as small and the universe to be big; humbleness is much more pleasant than anyone who thinks that "they are the truth." And the one and only who I believe deserved to say, "I am the truth" was also my example of humility! (edited for grammar)

Dear AwayNGone, Let me get this right, because I thought that there was not going to be anything else that I learned here that would surprise me..... Martindale SAID THAT HE WANTED REVELATION TO KILL YOU!!! And that it wasn't just you!? There were others like you whose sin was to call leadership concerning leadership hypocrisy. Or for the others it might have been any number of good and honest things that they were standing up for I suppose. I am having a little trouble wrapping my head around this. But it is not that I doubt it either. I mean, what the hey, there are people all over this world today who kill other for their god. And I have heard enough to know that TWI disease was the same sort of insanity that could lead to this kind of thing. I am having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that Martindale actually said this out loud. I am having even more trouble wrapping my head around the (very) likelyhood that your hubby probably knew that LCM said this. Even today after what my ex did to me if someone said something like that about her For the sake of my son and the sake of our onceuponatime marriage vows I would need to find SOME kind of way to respond. And it would include some kind of very, very serious indignation on my part. I mean, even just hearing that he said this to you and others: I am very, very unhappy. Your hubby had nothing to say.....OMG..... But I am glad that you've been o.k. since those days too. But right now I am some kind of place where I want to vent, but it would be fairly rude and maybe not do anything good. But if I let myself I could go into a little cussing right now, just so you know. How many others belong to the "Martindale said he wants to kill me club"? (added in editing) If my last question leads to any conversation of any substance I'll just quote the responses and start a thread called, " The Martindale said he wanted to kill me club."

Wow, good question Tzaia, it is definitely food for thought to me. For a while now I have been considering that the manner of how TWI taught the scriptures has served to hide the truth. IMO in any situation where people have been taught that a certain style is equal to substance they will make mistakes. One might think.....well, he didn't quote the scriptures enough or write in a fashion that proves to me that he knows what he's talking about, heck, he didn't even put "GOD" at the top of the page. By style alone they are judged to be "not good enough." IMO any ministry that was started by a narcissistic sociopath like Wierwille would grow exceedingly good at tricky B.S. But as to any one individual, I wouldn't know if they were just following the pattern they learned or if they knew what they were doing. But somewhere along the line it would seem that any normal person would have some kind of conscience pangs that came with the b.s. they were speaking.

Dear AwayNGone, I'm glad for you that you are outnaway. It sounds like it was a rough ride for you but it sounds like you are doing o.k. anyway. I hope that you are!? AND WELCOME TO THE GREASESPOT CAFE! JEFF

OMG....LOL...faling over now...whoo hooooo Watch it Tater! Doubtlessly Mr. Wallace has a whole slew of nasty tricks up his sleave to bully you into silence... LOL...falling over...whoo hooooo