JeffSjo

Oops, sorry, a little embarassed too. I see that Bramble posted #9 on this thread but you; Tzaia; posted #11 which was the one which I had quoted. Dear Tzaia, I can sympathize and relate to how you feel about prophecy. While hypothetically speaking I think that a prophecy may be genuine I find that in practise the prospect has me feeling more than a little feisty. I feel that for me the prospect alone seems to have virtually every one of my defenses at the ready. And I would really, really hope that for me that God would be the very first to appreciate my willingness to duke it out with the purported prophet/prophetess for the sake of proving things to be true and good verses just another jerkwater prophet who can not see past his/her own personal agenda and sells it in God's name. And thank you for giving me the context of the vision that lead to this thread as far as me being able to understand a bit of where all the creepy imagery was coming from. I do not know EL. Nor do I know JAL's marraige history, heck I don't even know how many times he's been married if at all more than the one wife I remember hearing about in the old days. But my supposed personal prophecy (that my very own Grandpa's warning to me started me questioning the validity of) was given by a prophet that was very close to JAL in the days when he was moving that completely bogus momentus class. And if the vision that EL heard of was given by anyone that was associated with the prophet that JAL was working with in those days then I am just sorry for the pain that considering these things must have caused her to feel. I'll just call this supposed prophet "Greg Ferret" for now, I honestly don't remember if his first name is "Craig or Greg", but the "Ferret" part simply amuses me. It does roughly rhyme with the guy's real last name. DEAR BOWTWI, THANK YOU, THAT'S HOW IT IS LOOKING TO ME TOO IN A REAL BIG WAY! Awe, thank you Dot. Yes, those things do bless me. But if they had been posted with any implication of "Thus saith the Lord" involved that even though I really, REALLY like the sentiment I would be on guard in a big, big way. I guess I've seen to many prophecies end up falling to the ground. And if they were said as prophecies I would then have to deal with a whole other level of tension.

Now if I understand you right Bramble I have to agree. Folks talking about having an f'in spider crawling out of their nose, cobweb imagery, and other creepy tangents, and it is all suppose to be normal!? But as a bystander I never understood why these types of things came up, nor do I now see the profit in sharing images and references to these things among a few informed folks while the rest of us just have to deal with the creepy imagery. Personally I would be up for either simply clarifying the reason for these images or even better, having a full and open consideration of these things. and since this is the Greasespot Cafe, I would just expect to have differing opinions expressed. I like that aspect of GSC, that is a lot better to me than having some TWI style, puffed up, and deluded leader telling everyone else what is or isn't true. I've had personal prophecies given me that not only didn't come true, but looking back it seems plain that if they had come to pass would have simply sucked me into some "prophet's" own personal private agenda party that was done in God's name. In "River Road Fellowship" one supposed prophet said that God's judgement would be poured out on the U.S. by winter, I don't remeber if that was six or seven years ago. But since it didn't contradict Barnard's latest false prediction of when the Lord would return it was presented to the group, publically, as a true revelation. Of course the supposed prophet did not like me. Once I tweaked him by pointing out that my thinking was geometric in nature after he said his was linear. Of course that one had him scouring his Corps notes only to discover that "geometric thinking" was indicative of great leaders according to Corps doctrine. (hehehe) While linear thinking made for great followers. Looking back I consider that it was fun to tweak him with that b.s. Corps teaching, but I think that this guy always held it against me. And of course he once accused his wife of "LOOKING AT ME". And another of his visions had as a major component "a large pile of rollerblades", I'm not making that up. Those things had Barnard and his thuggish cretins looking for God's guidance for "River Road Fellowship." So because of my past, these types of things can get me worked up. But because I believe the scriptures I believe that such things may be good and genuine. But my experience has been in dealing with wannabe prophets and b.s. visions.

Now you made me laugh Waylaid. I'm not kidding either. I appreciate the apology but I'm betting that a closer look will reveal that at least one of them was qualified with a vagueness that leaves a little bit of a question for the readers. but your insults were pretty straight forward and to me the responses have been fairly evenhanded and patient considering the head on comparisons you used to mental illnesses or other serious issues. And Oakspear is exactly right in pointing out that some of your very points were made by folks who looking back on it seem consistent in their agenda more so than any honest consideration of truth. But I, and I'm betting Oakspear, is willing to see where you go with things from here on out. But as far as the insults go, I assure you that I have no intentions of letting them being welcome here. If you truly are sorry and try to stop it I'm certain that things will go better for you here. And I'm not a moderator in another avatar either, I have zero authority at GSC.(Greasespot Cafe) but if you do stop the insults it seems reasonable to assume that you will find that you may feel more welcome, it's mostly the insulting, condescending stuff that I find objectionable so far.

You may be a TWI tool if.... You don't even realize that your attitude of superiority has you insulting good folks left and right, while you think you love people...really.

Looking back for me the air of self superiority we had was sickening Bolshevik. BLECH! But even today, some Christians who I've met may consider me to be non-christian because of certain beliefs I suppose. I guess supieriority and condescension is bigger than a TWI problem, it is a human problem. But we gotta talk about the stuff in our own lives like TWI I guess.

Your words are I'm sorry AND you liken these things to a genetic fault that leads to folks having to deal with multiple misspeaking and embarasing behavior because they are beyond there own control like Tourette's syndrome. You seem to have a freaking long way to go before you ever help anybody with that tude WAYLAID. But I am glad that you wish to stick around.

What can I say Shellon? Except, no, not your leg. :) I would have preferred in your case to have been able to squash that nasty little arachnid. Dear Twinky, Here's the thing....by my own admission I don't know enough specifics of this supposed vision to comment. But as to the things that I do believe, I feel very comfortable sharing them out here in broad daylight at the GSC. And since this supposed vision has at least a few of you who are well informed I must of course defer to your judgement. On the other hand, others have went so far as to post pictures of a person completely encased with cobwebs, seemingly imobolized. And since this vision has brought up such strong images for some it seems only natural to me to relate the whole story. After all, that is fairly consistently what I do. And even though it is butt ugly obvious that some Greasespotters will never ever believe in any vision or prophecy I have also discovered that the substance of some of their objections has been substantial enough to correct others who mistakenly believe in a BAD VISION OR PROPHECY. I'll willingly admit that for me, most of these visions feel a little screwy, and that a 100% sceptic who doubts one of these things at the very least seems to have the odds in his/her favor. So I think it would be very, very cool to air the whole thing right here. Especially as even though I don't know many of the details I strongly tend to doubt in a vision that has something so creepy as to have a bug crawling out of somebodie's head. Call me crazy, but that sounds a little crazy. (edited for spelling and grammar)

"Get a life","pathetic topic",and "pretty immature". To my count that is three insults in one paragraph and that is cutting you a break, because some of your other comments may be taken as insulting too. You've set the tone sofar Waylaid, and it is not good! "bitterness", "can be like a sickness", and "way over the top"? (Sarcasm warning) OOOOOHHHH, I just feel your love, TTTHHHPPP! I suggest listening more, and typing insults no more. I'm pretty sure you actually have been insulting pretty much everybody here sofar. I do not know what you were like when you graduated the Way Corps, but if it is anything like you have been in your posts sofar (Insults and telling us how you are better than all of this) I'd be glad to say that according to your own manner you seem to me to represent some of the worst of "Way Corps" mannerisms. ok, I will. You are insulting, you have a "I'm better than you" attitude, and it is fairly easy to imagine you being able to lead only those who believe in your self promoted superiority. Around here some of us refer to these things as WAY CORPS.

Dear Twinky, It seems well said to be careful what we smash or brush aside. With the human creature being so complicated and all I would hope not to shoot down what for somebody may be a step in terms of coming to grips with something. But in terms of this vision or prophecy or whatever it was it is easy for me to consider the possibility of needing to do some smashing. But it is impossible to say for sure since I don't know the whole story. Besides, I am not intimate enough with any of the individuals or issues to feel that I have the right to start going after it. But I just hope that this creepy crawly business isn't permanent for anybody in terms of feeling trapped or afraid by the bugs and the webs. (edited for spelling)

I've been recalling that more than once since I came to GSC that some of you ex-wayfers have made references to spider webs, cob webs, or bugs themselves while sharing about how some of you feel while refering back to way-world. And my somewhat pat answer has become that when I see bugs or webs that I smash them and/or squash them. And while I find the concept of simply smashing them or brushing them out of my way to be possibly helpful to some I've more recently wondered if anyone would willingly expound on just exactly what these references mean for them. Is it that remembering how things were for you gives you the creeps? Is it that you feel that you may still be taken in by certain TWI style manipulations? Is it that these things you suffered in TWI still have you feeling vulnerable and weak. In that case I would happily encourage you to find the strength and clarity of thought to smash these things that "bug" you. Do you think that God or your mind is showing you how to relate to these things in our past? Or is it something else entirely? My hope is that this thread leads to a conversation that actually helps the readers; somehow, sometime.

I'm certain that TWI and the corps was similar to my particular splinter group in most if not all respects. Leadership in River Road Fellowship was reserved mostly for Corps except for cra1g E., who had the capability of being especially bruitish and/or thuggish. I remember once he (Cra1g E.) said," I just know that I was given God's anger for a reason.?" Besides in the no.2 guy's case it gives Barnard the ability to glory that his own special "true son" in the faith was superior to all or any corps that came around anyway. And from years of experience I can share confidently that if Barnard can find a way to manipulate any situation or scripture to have people give him all the glory he will dam sure do it! But back to your point Skyrider..... Over my years with this group it often seemed to me that these leaders lived in some kind of double-minded, double-tongued manner that required some kind of amazing mental gymnastics to maintain at the cost of their own clear conscience I am afraid. They quoted the scriptures that required leadership humility and servitude, but actually required extreem a$$ kissing from everyone else at the same time. Call it forked tongue, double minded, or speaking out of both sides of their mouth at the same time if you will. The hypocrisy was amazing to me. Barnard was willing to admit his servitude to anyone who gave up their life, their family, their financial well being, and never failed to bow at his feet. And his thugs have grown into the same thing. But Barnard is careful above all that his thugs kiss his a$$ even more than everyone else. It is important to him that his thugs give him the glory for being able to live in the authority that he's given them. And it is a control issue also. I hope this much is clear, that they claimed to be servants, but ruled oppresively. At least a tin-pot dictator like Saddam Hussein was honest about what he really was. (edited for grammar, and a little added for clarity)

Dear Catcup, your post nicely covers one of the things that changed for me since I got to the GSC. I heard a long time ago many credible stories about Wierwille defending folks from oppressive, jerkwater leadership, family, or community based influences. And if that had been the whole story I think it is a fair statement to say that I would be happy still to feel a little love and/or loyalty for the man. But since I came to the GSC another side of Wierwille has been portaid with even more credible testimony than that which served to secure a measure of love for the man. And for the sake of brevity I will use the same "father in the word" analogy that Wierwille used to cause people to become willingly subject to him. It turns out the the supposed "father in the Word" took some of his young daughters and raped them after he drugged them and ripped their clothes off. And that testimony is just as credible and more so than that which I heard from the first. And because some of his sons had the bonds of real marriage and fatherhood with these now raped daughters he relished destroying his sons' lives' if they showed any indication of rejecting his so-called "fatherly guidance." And he only allowed the sons and daughters close to him that participated or at least enabled the systematic rape and/or abuse of his own daughters, causing his own sons and daughters to have blood on their hands too. I don't think highly of the man so much anymore. (Insert your own sarcasm) His love and support only served to hide his lewdness from the rest of us.

Interesting question Rottiegrrl! It's been a while Mark. Nice to see you around again. It seems to me that when Jezebel was told that dogs would poop her remains out in some field that because of her persistent murdering and other evils she was definitely at the point of being so bad that the question of whether or not God loved her seems moot to me. Much more so since "the father of lies" end has been foretold many, many times in the scripture. But since in TWI twisted and insane bastards have taken it upon themselves to deal out themselves what can be only described as a wannabe version of the Lord's vengence that this whole topic may be more than a little touchy for many of us. But I do believe that even though the devil's end is clear to me, that since Michael himself doesn't throw railing accusations in the devil's direction that we should somehow manage to show similar restraint. If I wasn't committed to the idea of former TWI leadership turning to live in a healthier mindset than the old ways (so-to-speak) that they learned from Wierwille that I wouldn't do them the courtesy of pointing out that they were twisted and insane bastards at all.

Dear Brainfixed and Bolshevik, For whatever it's worth, I am so sorry you and others like you went through this stuff. I hope that you are able to find the kind of peace, joy, and happiness in this life that makes everything ok, in spite of the abuses. JEFF

I remember having adults in my life as a teenager who I know loved me that caused me to consider that if I did something evil that they'd f'in kill me. For me there has been a proper perspective and place for being a young adult who feared the consequences of becoming really nasty and/or mean. But in spite of the fatherly analogy that Wierwille used to describe his life and ministry to us, in the end TWI leadership was abusive, hateful, twisted, and far to impressed with themselves and the supposed "spiritual authority" that those fools ended up believing they wielded. And even though I resisted a lot of what River Road Fellowship tried to cram down my throat I do not feel that I have occasion to boast. When I've done that I most often have found that my words end up falling to the ground just like Peter's words when he said he would stand with the Lord throughout the events of the crucifiction. Besides, all I need to do is simply recall the many times that I was cowed into assenting to some form of leadership abuse or another when it was directed at someone else. And even if I went along with the abuse because of TWI doctrine or reasoning I think that in my gut I at the very least suspected that it was wrong. If anything me resisting the stuff that was directed at me wasn't even so much because of any noble virtue, but simple survival. (edited for grammar)

Hi Brainfixed, I have been thinking lately about how peoples' bodies do really show physical consequences from a history of suffering abuse. It can go far beyond thinking patterns and emotional scars. Abuse can lead to actual physical problems and if I'm not mistaken this is one of the things that you are sharing that you are facing. I hope it doesn't end up costing you years of your life but know that for many it really does. One of the things that I faced in "River Road Fellowship" as led by Victor Barnard was an abusive application of hard verses similar to the one that you bring up. If leadership's (the supposedly "spiritually mature") thinking in terms of handling the harsher scriptures is controlled by someone with narcissistic ar sociopathic tendencies it seems to me that insanity and abuse is about the only likely outcome. And if the scriptural adage of "judge not lest ye be judged" applies to these type of twisted bastards who wield the harsher scriptures with insane abandon it seems to me that they themselves will have only succeeded in bringing upon themselves the very worst of consequences from the Lord himself. But as I have shared before, if you and I only manage to agree in condemning the insane and abusive behavior of TWI without managing to agree in our respective beliefs or worldviews, that seems to be just fine here at the GSC. (edited for grammar, and a bit added too.)

I have a hair lip, it's called a mustache.

Good points Tzaia, The thing about the adequate warning (supposedly IMO) is that when such a thing came from a man who, IMO, had huge problems with sociopathic tendencies and narcissism is that I'm not 100% certain where he was coming from. But worthwhile possibilities include IMO: (and there certainly can be others) The warning was given by someone who was fooling themselves first and formost... The warning was given as a ploy, for instance from then on he could play the, "It's your problem, you shoulda fought for it card." It was given as a blatant manipulation by a complete con artist in order to draw in sincere but carefully held impotent (as far as ministry politics goes) folks. After all, such sincere folks were genuine and had an impact on the populace when they shared their hearts for God's Word and God's people. It was only given as a selling point in order to hide the blatant sexual and mental abuse that top leadership carried out. It was given out as bait to draw in folks who wouldn't be likely to back down because they were completely sold out on the "IDEA" of the integrity of God's Word and Wierwille, aka the teacher. ____________________________ At any rate it seems TWI and the things they taught from the bible ended up being diametrically opposed to each other.

You may be a TWI tool if... You insist on thinking that there is good in TWI to hold onto even after you realize that the ones who promoted that view are the same ones who have manipulated and abused many people for several decades.

I keep expecting one of you computer competant folks to put this together in one big photoshop photo..... I'm still waiting..... and still not very computer competant.

FYI, It occured to me that the company that blocked or redirected the link had left a place to respond directly to them. So I sent them a message yesterday, and today the link works. I'd like to know how it happened in the first place but I am content despite my not knowing....the link works!

Hey, somebody get Dolly here a flying squirrel get-up. Yes I DID say flying squirrel braniac...... The air-corps always gets the hotties.

You may be a TWI tool if... You are still comforted and encouraged when "the man" puts down people who are not trying to do anything but bring up relevant issues. For instance; He/she will just fade away, or I have already forgotten more scripture than _________ will ever know, or he/she is unqualified, or he/she isn't ready, or you'll be a Greasespot by midnight.

Thank you for the responses Raf and Wordwolf.

OMG.....this is too funny. And on top of everything else the add at the bottom of the page right now says,"Expert Military Analysis" and the web site is called,"UnderstandingWar.org" ROFL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (edited for..well..Apparently laughing and spelling are not two things that I can manage to do well at the same time.)