JeffSjo

I think that in one sense you are no different than most people in that you are attracted to certain things that may not be good for us. But the added aspect in your case of being suckered by people who hypocritically use their self-righteousness to victimize you in God's name gives these turds a whole other level of accountability before the Lord that makes their eventual reward especially painful. But I hope you come to terms with this thing before it bites you again kizka. And even though it may not be necessary, I suppose it can't hurt to say that I am happily taken and have every intention of not screwing that up because of any such possible foolishness. (edited for grammar and spelling)

With me, it seems that the particular perks may depend on what really drives the splinter group leader, and the perks they hold to may be telling. I have no doubt that some are driven by the kind of perks you describe because it was just part of what TWI did for it's very top leadership and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in this case. But based on my experience Skyrider if the splinter group leader thrives on owning people;lock,stock, and barrel along with being so hung up on being "The Man" that he will break down and try to eliminate every single normal and healthy familial relationship in order to be the only center of authority, attention, and loyalty for every single member it may be even more pernicious than simple greed. (edited for clarity and grammar)

HHHMMM... Sly yet sometimes buffoonish authoritarian rulers who were incompetant in regards to actually helping people with their positions of authority who ended up being surrounded by buttkissing self centered power hungry yes-men who themselves proved to be even more ruthless, hidden by a false front of respectability and self serving traditions to continue their rule until people got fed up. I think that "czar" does seem to be a better fit in some respects than "nazi". HHHMMM... (edited to remove accidental double posting.)

Hi Kizka, I wish all the best for you. I hope you have the support of a safe circle of friends to help you continue to sort things out. It seems like a wise thing for you to be able to say that you may still feel a little prone to falling for guys who give you the old "We are of God" line. Did you really mean,"I never put up any resistance if he tells me he is a 'godly' person?" Wierwille used it. My former splinter group leaders utilized that same sentiment to get ten young women to make lifetime commitments to him. And I'm sure that plenty of clergy from many different types of groups have used that sentiment to take advantage of folks, even if it in some cases did not lead to sexual exploitation. I wish you well.

It seems like TWI has expended a lot of energy to keep some people around. They have, as long as I can remember sold themselves with all the determination of a rabid dung beetle. hehehe And since I first read the topic of this thread I can say for certain that for all the good people who have been staying faithful to an organization that I believe in truth deserves their censure instead of their loyalty. So many of the things that I once held onto because of TWI lies and spinning of the truth now pains me to see in someone else's thinking. Yeah, it breaks my heart sometimes too Krys.

That is a shame Skyrider, that they will not or can not actually speak the truth, especially considering all the folks that have been hurt. And for the sake of clarity..... did you mean to write "very few ex-corps leaders are unwilling....." I think you may have meant to say that very few are WILLING.

but we do have a pretty good idea of what unrepentant predators do, huh?

Boy, I hope they did not offer the mercy of Christ to an unrepentant predator. But I just cannot see how such a man could have earned a good reputation as to earn such a huge position of trust in such a short time. And to me it seems that often the same traits that make a good predator are often the convincing and deceptive false front that may convince others that he is repentant and not only deserves another chance but deserves to be ordained. I'd really like to be wrong, but this seems like a foolish ordination that is likely to go terribly wrong. (edited for clarity)

I hope they will or did before they die too Mark. Since I very briefly looked at your response earlier today I have been considering how great it was that King Mannassah(sp?) who history records as the one who sawed the prophet Isaiah in half and ruled wickedly for roughly sixty years had a change of heart before he died. And as much misery as TWI doctrines and practices have caused I know they did not do that. but still, I believe it is accurate to say that they have blood on their hands so maybe my distinction between TWI leadership and Mannassah is a moot point. And I would hope that even those among us who are unlikely right now to desire mercy from the LORD for anybody would at least rather see TWI leadership openly and honestly take some responsibility for their actions.

Why Mark, Do you even think such people that will not be held accountable are the same people who build a Christianity in the image of their own vices? (slight sarcastic tone plus smirk) You quoted me as I was editing, no biggy!

Well, I can't speak for him but I am willing to put an excuse down for him just for the fun of it Mark. LCM's EXCUSE, He was a stupid college kid that already had a huge ego, abundant potential in his life to be an abuser worthy of anyone who was willing to crush all opposition while becoming a key member in an abusive religious organization, and a foolishness in his heart that would allow him to delude himself into thinking he was the MOG's successor even though he would use his "alpha dog" status to nail chicks in the parking lot if it was dark out, and he would have the kind of unsound judgment in his heart to teach some of the most Gawdawefully stupid doctrines that I can recall at this moment. HHHMMM, Well I guess looking back at this last paragraph it may not be much of an excuse. I mean unless you count "stupid", "abuser", "foolishness", and "unsound judgment" to suffice as an excuse.

Dear Erkjohn, When I said "most normal folks would have moments when they knew it was b.s., and others when they were deluded by their own press" all I was referring to was how a relatively normally thinking mind may consider these things,if it was in WIERWILLE'S position. Or put a little more clearly, I think unless Wierwille had even worse problems than are immediate obvious to me I think it is likely that at times he knew it was a scam and at others he believed his own press. Now I might be willing to apply it to you if you have scammed thousands of people into believing you were the MOG, or if you believed the lies that were spoken about you in order to bring people into your organization. So unless you are in any way like Wierwille was in this regard I definitely was not referring to you, or any of the rest of us who ignorantly promoted Wierwille when we didn't know any better. (a little added for clarity)

I tend to think this one is the most likely possibility. Too many of his concerns seem too genuine for me to wrap my head around the possibility that some of them were only scams. I may be underestimating his core dishonesty but it seems that a healthy dose of delusion is possible. I am not sure how much of the beginning of TWI was a scam that turned into delusion or how much of the supposed revelation that VPW received was delusion that turned into a scam as TWI functioned. Certain for me is that many of the things that I believed about VPW were lies however, whether they were based on scam, delusion, or the likely possibility of a mixture. Clearly VPW thrived on the view that his closest followers had of him. I'm not sure if he had these delusional views of his importance before people started thinking of him that way. In one case he was just puffed up by the pedastal that folks put him on, and in the other he deliberately scammed people into putting him on that pedastal. But most normal folks would have had moments when they knew it was b.s. and others when they were deluded by their own press.

It sounds impossible to NOT like Billy Tom. I have heard stories of people who lost certain functions because of head injuries before. And when these lost functions came out of the "thinking" portions of their brains they lost certain functions because they have habitually used the same neuron pathways for certain tasks. But in the cases I have heard of they could "relearn" these lost functions and get their brain to utilize new pathways for lost tasks. But it wasn't easy for them to do. Whether or not Billy ever learns to read again he seems like a wonderful neighbor. And I think it is fair to say that the Lord didn't say that the Samaritan of parable fame was not described as doing "Jewish" acts, but his actions were counted by the Lord as fulfilling the compassionate and kind commandment. In like manner, I would not call Billy's actions "Christian" but it seems obvious that in this case his actions were laudable just as the Samaritan's whether or not Billy is Christian. And often times I simply refer to Romans where Paul expounds on how those without the scripture can be judged "just" by their actions without the benefit of having received the scriptural commandment. But in another place Paul says that Christians who do wicked things face a more rigorous judgment because they should know better. Or in another that teachers shall reveive that stricter judgment. So for me it is interesting that a man such as Billy may well fair better before the Lord than a corrupt Christian teacher.....hhhmmm.

Hi Bishop and welcome to the Greasepot cafe! When I first came here I had been committed to several TWI teachings too. I am really glad that GSC has helped you. It certainly has helped me too.

Dear HCW, I've really enjoyed reading the historical facts that you have shared. And it seems that you have certainly done a good job of calling it as you see it, and I am certain that for you all that sharing was just the tip of the iceberg, so-to-speak. And even after your years closely associated with top TWI leadership it seems you have done a real good job of looking at things as they really were in spite of the many heart strings and warm feelings you must have made with many individuals over the years. But from my perspective looking back now it seems obvious that building on Wierwille's example much if not all of TWI's top leadership engaged in a somewhat systematic and years long system of sexual and mental abuse that were usually covered up with such simple platitudes as,"He/she just needs to toughen up to stand on God's word." And while such things can seem dumbfounding in that we actually bought them, I think it just goes to show how that the whole IDEA of "serving God" can actually be utilized to blind many eyes as to what is really going on in any given situation. Perhaps especially IMO in a case such as TWI where that covering up of Wierwilles' evils became doctrinal and control issues. Reading your posts, it has kind of saddened me to consider how VPW and others could keep at least somewhat of a veneer of normalcy going on, as evidenced to me by the mostly normal and even heartwarming interactions that you rightly recall. As someone who has been somewhat victimized by TWI style abuse and control it is very easy to relate to the ones who have had deep and long-lasting wounds from such behavior. And from my perspective using terms as "real jerk at times" when describing Wierwille vicious and aberant behavior, which was definitely in part because he was soooo F'in narcissistic, actually understates the kind of man that his nasty and destructive behavior came from. But I do definitely appreciate how well you have come to terms with TWI leadership behavior and your seemingly thorough recall of events and impressions as things sit right now. JEFF (edited for spelling)

And one more thing Tzaia, My boy is not in their clutches as things worked out. All it took for me to get that accomplished is to tell my divorce mediator exactly what they've done and said. But right after that particular mediation session was the only time my ex blatantly gave me the classic, "if I could kill you with my eyes it would be now" look. For me it was easy to get that done, but only after I started talking to folks about what happened.

It was a much more complex situation with me when I was a focus of my very abusive splinter group back a few years ago. For me any knee-jerk response on my part would have imediately cost me my family. And it would have allowed them to portray me as the bully too, even in the eyes of the law I suppose. But one local police officer that I met said that from his perspective I was handling it all pretty well. But for me, handling it all pretty well included no kind of reprisal that they would have used against me.

A lot of what you say makes sense again Tzaia. COOL, and thank you. I had hoped to be clear before, but this group is my EX-splinter group. I was kicked out a few years ago now, so most of this advice does not apply to me anymore even though it may have made a difference once. But in terms of what was going down, exactly why I stayed, and what I was hoping to accomplish is a very long story and not a current concern of mine. (added in editing) I cannot give this thread any more time today, but their is a lot to take in until I may respond. Thank you all again.

The bullying you feel the most susceptible to seems to be an especially insidious kind of control. I can relate to your caution too. The one church I was briefly invoved with in this very same small Wisconsin town that I am in today had some really twisted control issues and behind the back stuff going on too.

One of the things that made my former splinter group terrible was how it was run left no room for anyone to have an opinion that did not glorify the leader. And when folks' opinions are managed in such a direct manner it often and rightly seemed that every concern I voiced was automatically considered heresy. So having my own thoughts and opinions were considered to be an attack on "the unity of the spirit", the loyalty that we were taught was owed to the false apostle, and a danger to anyone in the group. So while they learned to not confront me directly the judgemental, hypocritical, and behind my back judgments were still very harmful to me. I guess that is why these types of situations cause me to feel uneasy, sometimes even when that cruel and thoughtless behavior does not have nearly the potential to directly hurt me.

Dear HCW, That is some truly amazing info to me that you posted, thank you. I can't help but consider that the things that LCM, Geer, Howard Allen, and Donnie Wierwille did were learned from VPW as much as anybody. And that when they pulled their guilt trips and power plays they were really only following in VPW's footsteps. I have heard a lot of sharings that make it clear that in spite of VPW's charms that he was also exceedingly nasty whenever he perceived a possible threat to his power and authority here. He certainly spent a lot of time reaming those whose only crime was that with clear consciences they challenged his doctrines or did things that a narcissistic man would consider a public challenge to his status. Any thoughts on that HCW?

I could liken how I consider "responsibility before God" as it pertains to a heirarchtical organization to the nazis. Nazi extermination camp gaurds have been held accountable for their own actions but Hitler was most responsible for putting together the system that needed those guards to commit their atrocities. In simple terms, I believe that in terms of accountability before God that sh!t actually runs uphill. (edited for grammar and spelling)

Well I think you have a good point Tzaia, everybody should be accountable for their own actions. And no matter what the other factors are that still needs to be true. but in my case, the leader is the one who according to true TWI style holds a stranglehold over what people do and don't believe and what people think of others within the group. And in my case I hold people responsible for their own actions on one level, like the abusive thug who in a spittle flying fit told me to "F" mY recently deceased Grandmother. And the fact that he belittled me in front of my ex-wife was very humiliating. But from my perspective V.B. is the one who has been in control of my former splinter group and according to the very worst of TWI style control, manipulation, and bullying techniques has made RRF a place where these Way Corps leadership techniques can thrive. The particular thug that belittled me so is the same one who was accorded the duty of informing me that I was being kicked out the very same day that he moved my wife and one year old son out of my house. And even though his acts of thuggery are very personal to me V. Barnard is the one who the RRF folks have called "the Word in the flesh." So even though I see good sense in what you are saying Tzaia, because I've seen this very nasty little splinter group develop from the TWI split in the late eighties first and foremost according to the particular types of insanity that dwell in just one man it is still my opinion that he more than anyone else will bear the brunt of the responsibility for all the nasty, vicious, and controlling things that he and his thugs and thuggettes have done. Most of the thugs were led there by him. And he is sure to not allow anyone else to spit on anyone like he has (I mean literally hocking a lugey in a sleeping man's face.) if for no other reason than his narcissistic tendencies or his manic need to be in total control. (edited for clarity and/or grammar)

I can recall many, many instances that reminds me how it feels to live in such a group where everything is blamed on everyone else besides the leader who IMHO holds almost all the accountability before God. The content of this thread obliges me to print it out so I can go through it thoroughly.....Thank you all.