JeffSjo

Hi T-Bone, I think you said that very well. Even though I have never even heard of that author it seems that what he said makes sense. For me after seeing up close all the damage that someone in authority can cause by getting folks to believe they are fighting the devil I have a very hard time hearing someone go on about the devil. But then a lot of decent people have been murdered with the same tactics by church leadership too in times past. So it is certainly nothing new in one sense. But when this kind of pseudo-theology causes pain up close and personal it isn't cute or amusing any more. And people really, really have committed terrible atrocities in God's name while supposedly fighting the devil. but as I believe that the Lord meant it when he said,"As you judge, so shall you be judged" or "Judge not lest you be judged" it seems very likely to me that the people responsible for these atrocities will pay a very steep price when the Lord has his say. And briefly speaking, I think the Lord is the only one that can ever sort these things out, I do not know squat in comparison. The safety in me saying that is that it makes me much less likely to destroy a brother in God's name. Sometimes I think the dark side of the reformation even is that Catholics killed Protestants and Protestants killed Catholics. But they both killed Anabaptists and Unitarians. Doubtlessly to me it seems likely that there were both good people and bad ones in all these camps.

That is cool to me Taxicab. I don't imagine anyone who fell into a pile of manure thinks looking back at it that they were in it just about the right amount of time either.

Yeah, it seems that way sometimes to everyone I bet. But I think that for the really important issues that it is in truth more perilous to stay wrong than to learn something and find out our assumptions were wrong. In that case, in the long run as I said, we get to live with having been wrong once.

That sounds about right to me Shellon. In many ways I think all of us can relate to these things in some manner after our time in TWI. But even if TWI hadn't have been our particular brand of poison we'd still be dealing with some of the same issues perhaps. I mean if I say,"He lies all the time in order to get people to buy into his crapola" it seems reasonable to me that most people would think of someone other than TWI or my former splinter group leadership.

As a person who has been labeled with many different devilish and biblically evil nicknames and the such like I definitely have huge reservations about anyone who picks apart people's traits that range from evil to only annoying and seemingly learns about the devil from human behavior. Whether deliberate slanderous put downs as I have faced or just not thinking right it just is not good to see the devil every time someone has issues. Just because people have real issues does not make them in any way "like the Devil." Unless you think the devil is not too bright, stupid, and possible mentally imbalanced as people with some of these problems are sometimes.

I never felt in any real danger to speak of. But remember the crushing cruelties of their control methods that I believe originated in TWI was a little painful, but in the end I considered it safe to consider what they may throw at me in terms of mind games and verbal abuse in order to be prepared Twinky. In terms of your questioning of my motives I never really considered the possibility that you bring up. And when I read it my first reaction was a combination of "NO, that was not it" and "blech". Since I said that the first thing I shared when I got into "The Beating Room" was that I knew how hard they worked at making the property as nice as it is while at the auction I really, really do not know why you would read my post and even raise that point. I think that actions may lead to a reasonable consideration of motives in general, but pulling possible motives randomly out of thin air does not work so well, especially when I told folks how nice the property was. I can hope they wish to get out, well several of them now must face that I am still around in spite of River Road Fellowship's attempt to mimic God's anger and wreck my life. I believe that Barnard will not like me being around to show folks that there is life after River Road fellowship. I mentioned GSC while I was there and have in times past when I was in the area hoping that folks would learn about River Road fellowship's and Victor Barnard's roots in The Way International. If people wat to get out then IMO there may be more good hearted locals who may be willing to help than without any information at all. Maybe I could, but not today anyway, and probably not anytime soon. But what the heck, it is a thought Twinky.

THE ONLY REASON THIS POST #13 IS HERE IS BECAUSE I BOTCHED MY ATTEMPT TO EDIT POST #10. IN TERMS OF SEQUENCE PLEASE JUST PUT THIS POST WHERE POST #10 IS....SORRY.

I think that I often look to be able to trust folks in general. But considering how my former splinter group ended up twisting every bit of personal info. they had on me and tried to use it against me and often behind my back I understand that trusting somebody with personal info. is risky. But most often I guess I use some kind of risk/benefit analysis. Now at least I KNOW THE RISKS, and I can still look for the rewards of intimacy.

Hi Tzaia, It seems highly unlikely to me that any former Wayfer that learns to think for themselves would end up in as bad a place as we were led to by TWI. You are right, critical thinking is not without peril, but I believe our inner sense of accountability concerning our mistakes is a lot easier to live with in the long run than living with ourselves when we give up our inner accountability to those who lie, abuse, and never allow themselves to be held accountable. In the latter case I believe that instead of closure all we will likely have is an open wound that will not heal....mentally speaking. Am I making sense? This can be a hard topic to keep clear and concise.

Sooo...I haven't seen TWI proper for quite a while... but let me get this one straight. Wierwille gave us a self serving and really, really bad example of how he fought the devil in the course of his ministry. Then in order to maintain their control over every friggin word and concept that people say TWI forces people to do the EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT WAS A VERY, VERY BAD STANDARD TO BEGIN WITH. Then for the sake of public relations and giving the false appearance of uprightness on their part they lie straight up (Whether from self deception or deliberately I cannot always tell.) and insist that what they do is just. So in the old days at least Wayfers were honest in their attempts to hold to a lousy standard, but now they only can lie about their standards of faith and practice because they feel they must give the appearance of loyalty in order to continue to fool the decieved. IT KIND OF SEEMS TO ME THAT THEY HAVE WENT FROM THE FRYING PAN INTO THE FIRE. How pathetic it is that any Wayfer ever thought they were qualified to fight the devil. They have built lie on top of lie in their attempt to give the appearance of speaking the truth. And don't even get me started about the appearance of doing it "in love".....

:wub: Shellon.....

PLEASE EXCUSE MY LATEST BOTCHED ATTEMPT AT EDITING. POST #13 SHOULD BE HERE.

HHHMMM...uh....I don't get this whole thread. hehehe

MMMM...mmm...good!

I have to agree with you Shellon on every point of yours that I happen to be intelligent enough to recognize. It is all about power and control and abusing of same. I guess for me here at GSC all I can do is support anyone who tries to bring this touchy and overdue topic up for discussion. For me, it is bad enough to see a man who has no conscience concerning playing women for whatever he can get from them. But when I see a ministry where the systematic abuse was sooo bad that even your sixteen year old daughter was being set up to sate the piggish lust of these supposed men of God I get a little stirred up too. As a young man I can definitely remember the pull of a pretty and flirtatious young woman. But in your case we are talking about a TWI leader scum-sucking bottom feeder who felt enough confidence in his ability to manage people that he actually asked you....her momma.... if she "was ready" for him. I keep forgetting the name you gave me for this guy..... I will ask you again later I suppose. This guy absolutely must become a card carrying member of my permanent sh!t list. And even though that list will ultimately come to nothing most likely I really, really believe that this type of TWI leader deserves to be remembered for the evil things that they have done.

I don't think he and the Mrs. used the bikes at all once he realized that the bed in the coach served his needs while visiting a twig much better than any of the motorcycles ever could. <_< (Was that one doughnut worthy Twinky?)

Darlin..... You are very RESOURCEful

I never got from Leonard that he openly plagiarized others while maintaining a life long habit of building his name and reputation on the backs of others' sweat, blood, and tears as Wierwille did. One poster pointed out the freakin obvious to me now how that even where it concerned wierwille's very own research dept. at hq. that every single work was published while giving no credit to the poor reasearch dept. that often did it's best under Wierwille's arbitrary and abusive thumb. I don't ever remember Leonard building a ministry where virtually every leader fell under the sway of whoring themselves for a little name recognition either. But I have enjoyed some of the doctrinal threads that openly and honestly have called B.G.'s doctrines into question. Isn't that what we were even taught (theoretically anyway) to do with Wierwille's doctrines even according to PFAL teaching!? As a Christian this is where I go with this kind of valid observation from nonchristians George..... According to scripture it is God's people who end up in the most trouble when unbelievers happen to be correct in pointing out the the believers sometimes suck. Once I was part of a threeway dispute between me, a Baptist minister, and a Jehovah's witness on a South carolina street corner while I was a WOW ambassador. When I realized how stupid all of us were behaving at the time I walked away and hoped that I would never need to feel like I should be involved in some kind of fruitles, "Mine's bigger than yours" conversation ever again. But even after that experience I have probably blown it on occasion.....sigh.

Gee Ron, I had flashbacks there for a bit, except they were TWI leadership explaining why we had to send our money to headquarters instead of helping our legitimate friends and loved ones in need.

What I remember Wierwille sharing was how in spite of Leonard's knowledge of God's word that the messiness of Leonard's classroom set up was so bad that it indicated to Wierwille that Leonard was too much of a mess to be allowed to have anything to do with Wierwille's ministry. I think Wierwille and most of his trained children have been turning heads away from many good people for decades with similar well placed put downs. Looking back on these things now it seems obvious that such effective put downs were a part of TWI's method of self promotion and put downs to obtain the preeminence in peoples' hearts and minds. Heck, I think even former leadership who turned away from the evils of TWI still have the "put down reflex."

Hi sky4it, I am very sorry about the trouble your friend is in. And I respect the need to vent here at GSC and have done so myself from time to time and I hope you continue to come to terms with things in a manner that works well for you. But if you are up for the discussion I would like to share something with you that I told a man that I know a few days ago when describing my Greasespot cafe experience. I told him,"My education started when I realized that some of the atheists were more just than some of the people who believed the very same things that I did!" So even though I do not mind giving you space to vent, I do not like that you blamed atheists for your friends predicament, as if the atheists that are Greasespotters had anything to do with your friends predicament. Unless there is some kind of history in her story that I know nothing about, but only because you did not see fit to share it, your blame is misplaced. But as far as the former TWI bigshots who messed up her head I think it likely that I would see the blame that they may very likely deserve placed right at their feet. WHY DID YOU FEEL THE NEED TO BE SUCH A "HEAVY" ABOUT IT ALL ANYWAY, what did it really help, besides let you vent a bit anyway?

Hi again Kizka, I have to agree with much of what brainfixed said. Just as anywhere else, but maybe on the internet especially, folks are not often what they seem. I am guessing since you have been a member here for a while that this fact has not escaped you. Heck, I have heard stories of even people pretending to be one gender while seeking relationships with their own gender. And no matter what one thinks of relationships or their own choice of gender preference it seems obvious to me that dishonesty is not a healthy place to start a relationship of any kind. I think that your first post was very brave. The folks that have had the most impact on me since I came here had the courage to share their own stories without much in the way of pulling any punches. And I think many TWI trained predators may see a woman who admits to certain patterns as you have as a possible mark, I would hope that posting at GSC with your anonymity in place may provide you with a certain safe distance from folks who may try to play you. At least it gives you the chance to fully consider a post or private message before responding in any manner at all, which you have the right to not respond to any overtures of any kind if you wish to not respond. Let me just say that if any man at all has tried to contact you thinking to start any relationship that you already know is unhealthy for you as you have stated plainly, that I am embarrassed a little for us all. And if any woman has contacted you privately in order to warn you off of continuing this thread that there may well be good reasons and personal ones at that for their warnings. But when I first saw your post I thought that this thread may be a good opportunity for both women and men to discuss the folly concerning our own personal relationships that TWI may have built into us. I know for certain that as a young man that I was attracted to other young women who professed Godliness but also had a certain sexual edge to them and their relationships without the necessary love and commitment. So it seems to me that even us men may have the same kind of unhealthy patterns that you have described from your own perspective. But I already know for certain that you are not the only one with the issues that you share with us. And it was very brave IMO of you to be up front with us concerning some of your issues. But without honest participation from any of the gals and guys that I know could really relate to your situation it is unfortunately inevitable that even an outstanding topic such as this thread will come to nothing out here in broad daylight where we can all see just what is happening. And I hope that for you Kizka, that the things that may be going on behind the scene are not troublesome for you. Take care and God bless, JEFF

If Isaac Newton was really so intelligent why did he sit under the apple tree in the first place, only to get struck by the apple?

I am sorry to have to tell you what they have been doing, as of when I was kicked out a few years ago hiway29. ____________________________________________________ The thing about River Road Fellowship is that they have talked about going to South America in times past. And considering Barnard's foolish rantings about all the danger he is in more or less constantly he has already proved himself capable of moving everybody out of the country to escape the LIGHT. (LIGHT is my word for exposing him for what he really is.) And considering total control; over virtually every word that these poor people speak to each other I consider it POSSIBLE that they may be putting up a false front for the general public's consideration. When I was there this kind of false front for the public was as the food they ate in terms of their manner. When RRF was discussing the possibility of us being in Brazil all I saw as possible consequences was our further isolation and our eventual destruction. JONESTOWN like events are IMO the most likely outcome of such an ill-considered adventure. So I have learned even now to consider that these folks have been led into lying and hiding their intentions from everyone else on the outside. I will be watching at least.