JeffSjo

IMO these folks who say this may likely be the same ones who resisted this info. when it was current and timely Oakspear. we do have more current information coming in from folks regularly too. I too would like a public admission and a repudiation of past practises and the ones who initiated all the mess. Until they show some accountability IMO all the claims of change is just empty rhetoric. I would expect that much from any individual who did terrible things too (as a starting point), I'm certain that expecting this from an organization is not too much to ask either. (added in editng) I would not understand my former splinter group unless I understood TWI. I would not understand Barnard unless I understood Wierwille. IMO the fruit and the root go together. All this out-of-date info still serves a VERY VITAL PURPOSE!

I just hope you work through these thing Roy. I hope you also have very good people to help you, heck, we all need a few good friends.

All he did in the last one was still try to laugh me off but told me my view was F'd up to...another insult. This is what happens when a small group of people cut themselves off from everybody else and can not think outside of the things that get told to them by TWI style leadership. Those years I was there it grew progressively easier for them to keep fooling themselves as to what is significant. When she tells me that since three people have told me to be quite it is a reference to Bullinger's number in scripture book and I guess cause it was three of them that is suppose to make it significant to me, but IMO it only reveals a mind that hasn't thought outside of it's own little fishbowl in far too long a time. Apparently this peer of mine thinks I am incapable of a sound thought, like he has a frikin clue! A small man who knows of much nasty sh!t that isn't angry at the abuser, but one of the guys who years ago tried to say, "Barnard is full of sh!t!" And now he thinks it's ok to continue to think of ME as unfit, while women all around him have been abused and he apparently did nothing to stop it! IMO it's just a well worn version of TWI highminded, puffed up twerpy judges who don't really know their a$$ from a whole in the ground. I am still completely ok with youngman#3's take. His family is up the creek without a paddle and I only support him as he attempts to come to grips with a very bad situation. I can understand why anybody would have a hard time with anybody criticizing their dad, but this young man thinks that his dad's methods are good. And his insults to me I now grow weary of.... For whatever it's worth I believe that as long as this guy leads these other young adults away from dealing with their broken families and abused mothers/friends that he is deliberately still doing his daddy's bidding. Maybe I should have said,"Do you see how freakin stupid it is to think that just because three of you have said something to me that it is Godly?" It is not stupid to repost our little talk at GSC "My father's son and my "in need of re-masculation (I just made that word up :) ) peer." At least here the mod's do their best to be fair. COME AND PLAY, OUT IN BROAD DAYLIGHT WITH ME!

I deleted the original post and left one with some comments. Thank you Shellon :wub: for the comment. Now it applies to the post of mine that follows your comment.

Hi Pond, In the case of this man who gave me this gem from his experience in RRF I believe it's pretty evident who taught him how to look at people and how to use...uh...er...(I mean) lead them. "i actually love it when people relate me to my dad... he's a boss on a level that you only wish you could be Jeff S. and if he abused the authority than that's his problem and believe me, he takes responsibility..." (edited for clarity)

The difference between roast beef and pea soup is that anyone can roast beef.

TWO-CENTS ALERT. "Divided" is a state of affairs. "Divisive" is an opinion of others or self that depends on the perspective and intentions of the person who calls others "divisive." IMO all such OPINIONS of others may be considered individually as to whether or not the one who accuses others of being "divisive" is in fact not simply being divisive themselves. And "Unified" and "Divided" are two opposite state of affairs that on their own, depending on one's perspective, may either be a good or a bad state of affairs. Does this make sense?

Great thread Brainy! For me a lot of how we approached folks while under TWI influence like most things is not all that simple. There seems to be an unavoidable mix of individual intentions along with following our clearly set examples that either means we come of as arrogant know-it-alls, come of as genuinely interested and caring, or come off somewhere in between with a little of each coming out as things develope. I choose to find truth in the scriptures, but oftentimes I find the very same principles in religious or secular settings. I don't see any reason to try to bust anyone's balls about something if they seem to be tracking with decency, respect, or any other good thing no matter what the source of their ethics are. Personally, what I have come to have the most distaste for I'm pretty sure is a slick bible presentation that has behind it hidden motives such as strife, lust, vainglory, or any other less than admirable motive. (IMO the very same thing may be said of any authority figure, religious or secular.)Oftentimes it seems to be not such as easy thing to discern; the difference between a good person and a selfish, manipulative one as IMO the are both capable of giving convincing demonstrations of their stated intentions.

IMO the short answer is You Betcha (I am from NW Wi. and Minn. after all) But the mental illnesses that seemed to do the best in TWI seemed to be the ones that included being willing to be very abusive and/or controlling.

Hi Thomas, After many bad choices including allowing myself to be badly missled I can only be thankful that as long as I am breathing I can make better choices. And as long as I'm into my past honestly it seems that I am capable of giving informed counsel as to these things...but I could still have chosen better and not learned those lessons. And as a non-Waycorps person I can say that from my recollection that the elitism in how a LOT of Corps carried themselves was divisive. And all the mind games that they misunderstood as adequate training made a LOT of them into fairly highminded folks. And that the abusive tactics the tip-top ones used to enforce their devilish form of unity was in fact not only divisive, but even destructive. Boy did TWI end up on the wrong side of John 10:10 or what?

THIS ONE I POSTED AS AN ANSWER TO THE OBNOXIOUS,ABUSIVE MAN ON MY OWN PROFILE BECAUSE I WILL DO AS I SAID AND LEAVE HIM ALONE. Jeff Sjolander----- "NAME DELETEED", I told you I'd leave you alone if you didn't quit talking down to me. Yeah I get religious abuse, you ain't got religion but you got the abuse down. I commented on your last post referring to me in the "My Story" section of the GSC forums. This one is on my wall too------------------ Jeff Sjolander Thought for the day.....DO NOT INSULT PEOPLE OVER AND OVER WHILE ACCUSING THEM OF BEING HATEFUL! (Added in editing) I am not making this up....... This guy started his facebook thread out by asking if anyone ever considered why he was such an a$$.

THIS IS WHAT I FOUND HAS BEEN POSTED AT THE FACEBOOK PROFILE AFTER THE LAST POST THAT I SHARED WITH YOU ALL HAS BEEN DELETED. AND THIS MAN IS NOT THE SAME ONE THAT I ADDRESSED WITH MY LAST POST.I ALREADY TOLD HIM I'D LEAVE HIM ALONE IF HE DIDN'T QUIT TALKING DOWN TO ME..... I guess some leopard's just cannot change their spots. _________________________________ "Jeff is an idiot for thinking he can just post anything on my wall. Somethings are better discussed in private. To bad he didn't "learn" that along with everything else he knows :P i feel like this is all you talk and think about jeff and prolly most of your friends (if you have any) are people that are like you, find fulfillment in exhausting the subject of religious abuse. you were the one that fell for the things that have upset you so much and thats on you dawg. do you even wanna be happy? you got your life, your health, a shot at a really awesome chunk of time before the curtain closes. why not move to the beach and do some mad surfing and party it up for awhile :P that was a joke but the point is you're clearly unhappy and tho on one hand i could give a dang and am bout to kick you off this bitch cause of ur gloomy side of life you like to push like it's going outta style, i feel like i understand ur position and if nothing else, wish you'd think about gettin a little more positive about things. i doubt you'll be disappointed" ________________________________ (The rest I am posting just here at GSC) I was already surprised that this guy let the conversation go on so long as he did because it did not go well for them at all. I was just happy to finally get to talk to a few of the adults who I used to consider as family from River Road Fellowship. It appears that they can not face the truth of what happened to us without resorting to insulting characterizations of me even though I am only try to help them and am being as freaking gentle as I possibly can considering how badly they were mistreated. (Edited for the sake of clarity)

THIS IS A SMALL PART OF AN ONLINE CONVERSATION THAT I HAD RECENTLY. I WILL EDIT OUT THE OTHER FELLA'S IDENTITY FOR THE SAKE OF PERSONAL CONSIDERATION. _________________________________________________________________________________________________ THIS WAS POSTED AT THE GREASESPOT BY SOMEBODY WE BOTH KNOW "name deleted". If I may add another aspect of this... in the splinter group I was in and I will only speak of this because I can from first hand experience, anyhow besides me I have heard that Victor Banard who was the MOG(blah blah blah) has slept with almost all of the women in the ministry. Yes he is his fathers son. But heres my point. As the saying goes you never truely forget your first love...meaning the one you give yourself to. Alot of these girls I have heard he slept with (possibly even my own daughter) were definately virgins, what better way for him to steal, and control their minds and hearts? It's first love and apple trees my foot its more like I'm your first love forget Jesus Christ I have all you need. Yuck!!!!! ______________________________ (This is where I start to reason w/ him, FYI" I think that this woman is a ballsy woman. While at the greasespot I have fairly regularly had to confront people who for misplaced religious considerations were either bullying them, casting doubts as to the character of ballsey women who said similar things about Wierwille and "his kids", and made it clear that I would not willingly allow anyone to refer to them as anything other than victims. And to be perfectly honest I would have great joy in these confrontations if they were needful in person even more than if they happen over the internet...just saying!!! Now I believe this woman and I believe that some of the next generation after ours that know of River Road Fellowship events commonly talk amoungst themselves of things that you will not even admit to here on facebook "____" I also feel free to point out that I DO NOT BELIEVE YOUR DENIALS "____". I remember when V.B.'s doctrine was telling us men that we should be eunuchs and he's the man. I now believe that he was twisting scriptures to sate his own lusts. Even then I decided that I was not giving up my balls for V.B.and consequenty it led to the reality that refusing to give in led to me being an outcast with people that I thought of as my brothers. This is my helpful suggestion for you "____", grow your balls back. I wish that you believed that one of the things that we can do now is to carry out the word of the REAL WORD IN THE FLESH and see that these things are shouted from the housetops and give the younger generation a better example of a living faith than scurrying into the darkness away from the truth of these things everytime somebody tries to shine the true light of day on our darkness. I will not hold the many people who are content to imply that I can read in between the lines to know what V.B. did to this standard "____", but I choose to present it to you because I really do believe that you are a decent man at heart. and even if I am mistaken about some things at least I am not offering you an alternate path that I myself have not already went down myself. As far as the things between just you and me, I really don't want to discuss them hear and now with you because I don't believe you are even being honest about these other things that many people seem to know full well as being true.

Well I guess Barnard has made his bed and now has to lie in it. OMG, this is one of the appropriately ironic things that imo can make somebody think that there really is a God and He gets it. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (added in editing) P.S. My jocularity is intended as directly focussed at Barnard to the point of wishing I could put my foot somewhere at/in some part of his anatomy. And not at the residents of Sedro-Wooley. In fact, maybe this bit of local history will play itself out as simply meaning that the locals are especially adept at seeing Barnard and crew for what he really is.

Sometimes in the middle of my RRF experience I realized that even though I didn't have any answers I knew I was facing what I perceived as the most difficult choices in life. But all these questions concerning love and loyalty seem easy in one respect darlin, I didn't have any children who were old enough to have to think for themselves to consider. For me, I seemed to able to find a little breathing room in choosing to trust that eventually I would get what I needed to simply make it through a time of real turmoil for me. But in all these things I vastly prefer to figure them out with you as opposed to continue to go it alone. :wub:

However these things work out, short run or long run....I LOVE YOU!

Thanks for the posts everybody! I'll just wait and see how things go out there. I'm considering that Barnard's victims may be a little less conspicuos than they were in Finlayson, Mn. Maybe not just Jonestowwn WW, Once Barnard said of Koresh and crew in Waco, tx., "Something good was going on there." That was while I was allowing Barnard to paint my worldview for me so I can feel for them but it is very, very stinky to me now.

The following I received as a facebook pm from somebody who I used to know in River Road Fellowship. Since I am letting this person remain anonymous I trust that will prove sufficient for me to not have to face charges of "playing unfair" or some such thing. ________________________________ After all, you've never liked me much, Jeff, so why do you want to be my "friend" now? Frankly, I've read some of your stuff on greasespot cafe. I may not be in the ministry any longer, but most of it makes me want to take a shower when I'm done. Try some forgiveness, Bud, before you pass all that anger and bitterness onto your son, whom you obviously love quite a bit. Get on with your life and let it go. You can't change the past. _________________________________ MY ANSWER: Well, first of all you are wrong about me not liking you and your mistakes get worse and more presumptions from there, but other than that I guess everything just peachy, huh? __________________________________ THE FOLLOWING I'M POSTING HERE AT GREASESPOT: I have decided to just post the best information that I have so that everybody can feel free to confirm or deny things. Victor Barnard and some of his followers, especially most of the younger women have moved to Sedro-Woolley, Washington. It strikes me as no accident that a look at any map of the U.S. places Barnard's new local places him in the farthest possible corner of the U.S. After all, this guy once was entertaining the possibility of moving River Road Fellowship to Brazil. Considering the broken families that he has left behind I guess Sedro-Woolley is as far away as some of his followers can move considering the divorces and children still involved with him. Id like to warn the residents of Sedro-Woolley, but this information I still consider uncomfirmed. And besides, after River Road Fellowship kicked me out I found out that the residents of Finlayson, Mn. had a better idea of what Barnard really was than I did. I'm seriously hoping that the residents of Sedro-Woolley can read him and his followers too. but I am worried that he may find fresh followers, uh, er victims.

I wish you the best on your high seas adventure ..... Aaarrrr matey! Watch out for the dark side of the fAaaarrrce.

Welcome Master Jedi Jack Sparrow... Welcome out of the dark side of the farce.

Hi Bride, The clothing add is still here and funny for me too.....MWAAAHAHAHA. And on top is an add for Minneapolis area singles and an add for earmuffs. chuckle, snort, chuckle For me it's enough to find that I can reign in those sometimes natural urges treating people with respect and decency is far more important to me than any friggin dress code. I think the reason why this topic came up for me is because of what Victor Barnard put the women through in River Road Fellowship. For a while the women were not allowed to wear jeans, and the men were told to not wear them either. The women were told to wear long dresses until in the heat of the summer Barnard decided to be merciful to them and allow them to wear tasteful shorts in the summer heat while they were doing gardening and other outside chores. Then for a while everybody in leadership was trying to watch everybody's (especially the guys) eyes and where they came to rest. They sought to accuse us foul men of lusting after Barnard's women. What a freakin mess, especially as Barnard has been the one reported to be sleeping with women of all ages and marital staus within the group. So while I have been put through a bit of a wringer with the rest of River Road Fellowship I hope everybody can understand why some people maybe could use a view of this topic that may help them get away from the insanity in River Road Fellowship.

I just left a parking lot in NW Wisconsin after finishing my Christmas shopping (Yay for me, seriously) and on my way out I saw a worker for this chain store going to get some shopping carts. It took me a bit to take the sight of this worker in and this is what I realized I was looking at. I was looking at a younger lady that was completely covered from head to toe except for the slot in her cold weather face mask that allowed her to see and in her cold weather garb allowed me to see only her eyes. And what I considered after allowing her to pass before I backed out of my parking place was OMG, if it wasn't winter in Wisconsin I'd take her form of dress as the generally accepted custom in any number of Muslim countries in the world today. HHAAAA Since I live in the U.S. it is accepted that for the most part women are allowed to choose how they dress and consequently do or don't show themselves off to the public at large. I like this state of affairs as opposed to either religious or legal (maybe both) obstacles to women choosing for themselves how to dress in public. But having said I appreciate that freedom I do find it easier and/or less distracting to deal with women who prefer to dress themselves with a certain discretion and even perhaps their own sense of modesty. As a Christain man I always considered it a valid point to prefer not having to deal with anybody who does anything in such a way as to only gather the kind of attention that will be toxic for them in the long run or toxic to the ones who have to be around them. So, IMO a little modesty in a woman's manner does go a long way towards making everybody including their own lives a little easier. As a Christain man I realize that in one sense if I am sooo weak as to involuntarily pant after every woman who does choose to show herself off in how she dresses that the biggest reality to me is that IT'S MY FREAKIN PROBLEM and not hers. On the other hand, I have to respect a woman who shows the sense to not deliberately draw the kind of attention to herself that only proves that some men are prone to fall. But in Northwestern Wisconsin toward the end of December these considerations are largely a moot point. Men and woman usually have to dress mostly covered not as a function of individual social sensibilities, but as a matter of comfort and in the worst cases health and/or survival. Anybody who's had a car brake down in a snowstorm may find survival to be an issue..... At least in the winter necessity does not force societal norms on people that only leads to grudging obedience and seeking opportunities to shove certain things in the face of the TWIts in charge. Freedom for all to choose in the case of manner of dress I believe is best handled according to individual sensibilities and consideration of those who have to deal with it too. Unless a Wisconsin snowstorm settles the issues for one and all that is.....