JeffSjo

This is for me a challenging comparison Waysider, comparing VPW and Paul from the other end as if instead of the TWI view of them both being Men of God they were both actually con-men. My initial reaction is that Paul was genuine and Wierwille was the con-man. But perhaps for me your provocative comparison for the purpose of discussion is really no more challenging than taking a hard look at creationism vs. evolution or even a real consideration of the atheistic viewpoint. But nevertheless, it is a thought provoking comparison. For me, the acceptance of God's direct involvement in and with all the men and women of the bible is paramount. Because without a real and genuine calling of God it seems to me that every record in the bible including Paul's recorded conversion is actually the result of some sort of personality disorder or delusion. And while I do consider these types of things I don't bother at all admitting that they are challenging things to consider. I think historically speaking my view is that if Paul had been as evilly minded and as corrupt as Wierwille, first century Christianity would have pettered away into nothing as many other organizations and empires have. And hopefully TWI will too, and soon. :B) (Edited for the sake of clarity)

As a former U.S. Marine I now find the old TWI comparison w/ the Marines to be highly objectionable. The Marines are a legitimate organization have a well worn path (consistent throughout world history) of being a military force to serve and protect it's country. Then TWI comes along and cons people (including me) into the comparison between itself and the Marines. The Marines I recall were made up of unique and strong individualistic individuals who needed to be strong people to maintain themselves under the duress of a lifestyle that was extremely challenging. And while within our very own U.S. there are many people who view the military as a place where indiviualism is discouraged I recall it as a place where idividualism thrived. And as far as military justice goes, anybody who sexually abused women and beat down idividualistic individuals as blatantly as Wierwille did would have suffered one of several possible fates at the hand of military justice IMO; including dishonerable discharge with resultant prison time, and more unofficial and possibly more permanent end (especially if his true animalistic nature came out w/in a combat situation).

For my son, and based on my RRF experience I was all too well aware that that controlling bastard V. Barnard knew full well how to take control of my son's life and rub my nose in it if I let him. I am sooooo thankful we have my son and your daughters Shellon. :wub: (edited to correct a typo)

Hi Tagaolong, I can relate to your desire to have a more updated source of information and in and of itself there appears nothing wrong with your question. The current president of TWI was around in the old days of TWI. Even though I didn't know of her back then it has been shared that Wierwille once publically referred to her as "wonderful" when he decided to make reference to her publically. And now it turns out that she seemingly has never told the truth about her involvement in Wierwille's or Martinadales'(Ugh..both Craig ANd Donna's actually...barf) sexual perversions and abuses until this very day. So while even for me simply hearing about Rosie and learning about who she is a President of TWI has been an update of sorts. That may only prove how outdated my info was, thanks primarily to the equally sickening, controlling, and abusive behavior of my former splinter group who I let have too much sway over my life for far too long. But as Rosie, Donna, and many other top TWI leaderships had their training and sickening personal habits developed to fruition under Wierwille's watch I really don't want to let TWI or it's leaders off the hook for the old information here at GSC. Many lives were ruined in those old days too and I'm sure the friends and relatives of people who were broken and chose suicide, alchoholism, drug abuse, or other last resorts of the truly brokenhearted may just feel that the damning information concerning Wierwille and his bastard children in the old days is not only informative, but also think it a necessity to keep the rotteness that went into making TWI the organization it is today on the front page. But then again, it might just be me. <_<

Hi Bolshevik, In my first post I made reference to how Barnard broke down family relationships in a deliberate effort to replace normal familial relationships with a world view where everything centers around his own life. And while your experience may not correlate directly I find your statement,"Cult is Family" to be interesting as a comparison point. I think some of my old aquaintances, especially the younger ones, have no idea how normal and precious family can be because of how badly there own views of their parents were broken down and replaced with Wierwillian views of "a spiritual father, etc." But for many people these days it seems like they may not have had much, if any, good familial relationships before they got involved in TWI. Speaking just for myself I count my broken childhood family and my reactions to that situation while growing up to be a major factor in why I was more vulnerable to the preaching of a supposedly spiritual, yet truly abusive TWI family in the first place. And one more thing Bolshevik.....do you have any examples you can share of the type of struggle that you describe when you say,"They are not going to let it go quietly."? (Edited for the sake of clarification and a typo.)

Hi Oakspear, I'm glad your kids weren't up to their necks in TWI indoctrination or misplaced zeal. :) And I'm glad they recognized the childish religious taunting for what it was, mean and nasty. I could only wish that everybody came through it as well as your kids did.

Hi Cheranne! This one has me considering this topic from a few different angles. Russia doesn't exactly have a good record when it comes to government regulation of religious organizations. It seems very unlikely that Putin's government would do a good job of weeding out the bad ones from the good ones, although it is somewhat likely IMO the they may seperate the ones that could afford bribes from the ones that cannot. But who knows, against all odds it could happen that someone in charge of "cult enforcement" could exceed in good sense and decency but still pretty unlikely IMO. From the teeny bit of history I've read it seems that every time religious liberty has replaced orthodoxy of any type that there has always been abusive and "out there" leaders taking advantage of the gullible. And there also seems to be a regular backlash against liberty from the orthodoxy, whether the orthodoxy is secular or religious. I guess it's just a question to me of wondering who the heck can do a good job of policing in a situation where religious liberty is the norm. Perhaps when folks beliefs aren't policed but there behavior is, let the abusive and/or criminal pay for it now IMO. But as long as folks aren't harmed, what matter what any of us think of what they believe IMO, except if we are trying to help the decieved. Even then liberty to chose seems a most important principle to me. And one more thing, I know a man who escaped the U.S.S.R. from what is now the Ukraine and he once told me when we were talking about Soviet persecution, "The stars shine brightest during the darkest night." I think it's fair to say that he didn't think to highly of all the screwy groups that have propogated in his homeland and after what he'd been through I thought it wise to just consider his opinion more than shoot my mouth off.

For me it is easy to be thankful for this one thing, MY SON IS NOT INVOLVED WITH MY FORMER SPLINTER GROUP. I think I was fortunate that when I decided to tell my divorce mediator exactly how Barnard and his thugs behaved and what they did, it was a short trip from me sharing to having a part of my divorce decree spelling out the specifics of how my son could not be around RRF. I think I was also fortunate that at the time of my divorce my son was only one year old. He had not been raised in RRF's toxic mix of twisting scripture and leadership thuggery that might have had him thinking that living under the sway of TWI style leaders was completely normal. Now I have the oportunity to be a part of my six year olds developement, albeit part time, and at least he's not being socialized to any TWI style abusive, twisted, full of lies and spin leadership. But I have to feel for kids who are so socialized to my former splinter's TWI style leadership that they don't even realize how simply they are led around by the nose and carefully kept away from anybody with any different ideas of how their life should be better than the status quo. And some of them IMO simply have broken families because of Barnard's twisted, narcissistic, and deliberate attempt to break down any and every natural relationship and replace it with the warped one where he is called,"The Word in the Flesh." And even younger ones who appear to be "out" of toxic RRF seem only to likely to be kept under lock and key by anybody who is capable of playing them like a musical instrument as Wierwille and Victor Barnard have proven themselves capable of doing to any vulnerable person IMO. ANYBODY ELSE OUT THERE HAVE ANYTHING SIMILAR HAPPEN WITH THEIR KIDS AND/OR LOVED ONES?

Hi ChasUfarley, I've been considering this comment of yours since I read it yesterday. I guess for me since I know these people in terms of many years spent together it is not as simple as not engaging them in conversation because they can not engage in a conversation without throwing out every little dig they can. I guess it just seems to me at least a little possibility that they may remember how things really were and not just continue to be lead about with every TWI style spin and ridiculing tactic. And even though I do not mind seeing how good an answer I may or may not be able to come up with, it seems at least a little possible to me that others might be able to have a good answer for these old yet oddly nasty aquaintances of mine. But for now I am weary of them and their schtick. Hi Bramble, I hear you! I think each and everyone of us on our own would have to work at coming up with our own sense of ethics and morals even without being played like an instrument by manipulators, but I'm still amazed how twisted and messed up people can become once they are committed to a group with rotten, twisted, and self-serving leaders. Thank you Chockfull, :) Revenge isn't good enough for me.....MWAAAAHAHAHA They will get what they have coming to them eventually only it seems like it won't be according to their self-assessment, because their self-assessment doesn't seem to include the obviously (and somewhat stinky IMO) unsound excuses for hatred and meaness. Hi Roy, There are certainly some differences of worldviews among us GSCers and many folks have there own answers as to the big questions in life IMO. But it seems to me that most all of us remember the hatred that was a part of TWI and for me, "River Road Fellowship." And for most of us it seems they must have some cliche, half-baked, pseudo-spiritual slander for us to attempt to justify their hatred, which most all of us have felt at one time or another.

I need to add one more possibility to the above list of possibilities.... #4 They embark on a campaign of seeking to aquire friends and allies here at GSC in order to manipulate folks into look down at me as they do and spread their poison in peoples' views to the point where everybody considers me the bad guy. Now for me, I do not believe that me considering this possibility is based on paranoia, but on simple recollection of how they operate behind the scenes. Like the proverbial poison serpent, they function at their very best when they get you before you ever see them coming. And like the rattlesnake, their warning is a fearsome sound but I know that they only operate in such a hidden and nasty way because like the rattlesnake, they are rightly afraid of being stepped on. Personally, I'd prefer them to have such an open and honest manner of behavior that they need not be afraid of the honest and bold people in the world; who do not need to hide their poisonous nature in such an aggressive and damaging manner as they really, really do. _______________________________ Thank you very much my love, WG, and Twinky! It is very good for me to hear your feedback because to me they all resonate with a soundness and a compassion that seems to be missing from my former aquaintances that are at present still more entangled in RRF doctrine and practices than I am. And I earnestly hope that your words resonate in their ears more than mine seem to have, as they seem to have relegated me to only be looked down upon and insulted for the time being.

________________________________________ This one came from post#72 "My Story." “my peer” Jeff Sjo in the whole time you have posted on GSC you have never once taken responsibility for your own problems but have played the poor me card and blamed others. I'd say until you face the truth of yourself that you have no business trying to fix anyone else. You've allowed bitterness to eat away at you so long I question your ability to have a truly spiritual thought. ________________________________________ Dear Kimberly and BOWTWI, I hear both of you and what you say mirrors some of my considerations on the matter,well, except for the "hitman part." :B) Besides, I couldn't afford one anyway. I think the reason for that statement on my part is fairly simple. Recently I have become aware that several RRF folks have been aware of what I am saying here at GSC. Here are a few of the possibilities IMO of how this will play out. #1 Since they have no real good answer for my points they unfortunately decide to slip back out of the limelight and keep the twisted, cruel, and manipulative things of Barnard's manner to themselves without ever really realizing how much of their reality is pure kaka. #2 They actively engage why they look down at me and realize Barnard was manipulative liar that even fooled my ex-wife into believing he was such a good man that she did her part in wrecking my life and trying to break me too. #3 They attack with their probably painful version of my life seeing as it is undoubtedly filled with at at least half-truths and even genuine faults of mine but sooner or later it will become evident that I was not even close to being as worthy of their own condemnation as the man that led them into condemning me. If I was a betting man I'd bet they will take the route that is cowardly yet allows them to think they are all that. (This was edited to correct a typo.)

TWO-CENTS ALERT There is a huge difference between being grateful to those that actually helped us and letting them own us.

I'm sure many others are qualified to chew on this. I hope you are well. JEFF

Hi Cheranne! I'm afraid you lost me at "Factnet." hehehe

Thank you, I got a little emotional myself at the last few posts..... :blush: I didn't respond right away in order to collect my thoughts. One of the things that for at least right now that I seem to despise the most about "River Road Fellowship" and from a greater distance, "The Way International", is the controlled environment under which praise and/or insults are handed out. And IMO the effect of "get a life" vs. "honestly shared appreciation" are exactly the friggin opposite of each other. We were expected to learn that when leadership praised somebody we were to elevate them, and when they condemned somebody we were expected in a similar fashion to reject them. I am certain, speaking for just myself, that I believed my lieing, manipulative, bastard leadership when they either praised or condemned somebody, more than I care to admit. There were several marriages before mine that Barnard ruined before I ever got around to realizing that his lieing, twisted perspective applied to these others as much as it did to me. One of the things that I am waiting for because I earnestly wish to kick some twisted and ignorant butt is to finally hear exactly what RRF leadership said about me behind my back in order to make sure that everybody that knew me would willingly turn away from me and my broken life even as I was progressively isolated further and further away from anything resembling brotherly love and into Barnard's devilish version of extreme judgement. Bring it on! (this was edited because of grammatical and spelling errors)

thank you Bramble :)

Recently in the my story section I was told to do get a life. In the "My Story" section we have been given the opportunity to share as little or as much of our life as we choose and over all I am very, very thankful for a place like "The Greasespot Cafe forums" to do so. But this one little snippet has gotten me thinking and I'd like to share some thoughts and leave it open for comments. I can't tell, based on the content alone of this post if it was made by a teenage girl, a 50 year old man, or anything in between. If I choose to believe based on the little information given in the relevant profile this one is a male of indeterminate years. But for all I can tell it just as well might have been said by a little girl. If it had been made by a teenager I'd just sigh and think something along the lines of, "These kids talk like that all the time to their friends anyhow." and probably not give it another thought. But I am going to respond to this post assuming it is an adult man, even though IMO it might have well been made by a little girl for all the intelligence and compassion contained therein. Wait, the young women I remember from RRF have more compassion than this so nevermind. GETTING A LIFE has been a major issue for me since River Road Fellowship moved my son and wife out of my house behind my back, fired me from my job, and kicked me out of the group. So in one sense to "get a life" really has been a major issue for me. But facing and/or figuring out what happened to me that cost me what was my life has seemed more necessary to me than just moving on to the imaginary land of partyville and/or the good life that many of my younger compatriots have chosen to do. And all my discussion and the feedback I've recieved at GSC has helped me get to the point where I am finally feeling capable of moving ahead with my life with a little understanding of the things that befell me under Victor Barnard's watch. So all you've managed to do by choosing to tell me to "get a life" is annoy me and cause me to have no little wonder at your apparent heartless and compassionfree comments.

I did not see that punchline coming Kit....ROFLMAO!

This is not funny. (Added in editing) But this was...... "I SEE YOU"VE COME TO THE BATTLE OF WITS UNARMED."

Hi Geisha, The comparisons between the so-called New Testament and the Old Testament seem potentially very fruitful yet fraught with possible error, and the later observation unfortunately is just a simple matter of recollection for me and not simple speculation. It is generally true I believe that the dispensationalism that Wierwille took fron Bullinger for the most part screwed up or ability to get the correct lessons from the OT. I remember that when it suited Wierwille he took upon himself to destroy the lives of men, women, and their children if he chose to. And he didn't do it with actual swords as recorded in the OT, but by controlling peoples' loyalties and manipulating their situations which were totally within the control of his iron grip. As such he presented a fearful and impressive counterfeit of how God works, and unfortunately many people still seem captivated by the man and others like him such as the folks who are a part of my former splinter group, "River Road Fellowship. When I was in the middle of that struggle I often responded with scripture such as, "As you judge, so shall ye be judged" or other scriptures in order to try to help Barnard turn from the high minded insanity he learned from Wierwille. Now that I am out of RRF and see things more clearly than when I was in the middle of them all I see that not only do Barnard and unfortunately many of his lapdogs deserve that fate that our Lord warned them of, but Barnard's sin and insanity was far worse than I knew at the time. Now I believe that the things they did in order to break me will be returned upon their own heads with change to spare, except for (maybe) those that did not know they were doing evil may recieve fewer stripes as our Lord has promised some mercy on the ignorant evil doers. While I find many of the OT laws to be harsh and unnecessary, I also am certain that in the prophets there is talk of and acknowledgement saying that God was fully well aware of the truth that he gave them harsh commandments that the children of Israel were not able to keep and even were plainly called "Not Good" in some respects. But IMO even these excessively harsh commandments have enough truth in them that I can usually relate them to myself in a figurative and/or spiritual sense. As far as the future judgments promised to those who are of faith there is still plenty of direct warnings IMO that should give us pause to fear doing evil.

Thank you Shellon and Doojable, This isn't the kind of thing that we haven't seen here many, many times and in my mind only confirms that my former friends have developed along the same line as TWI apologists in so much as their best shot is often just unsubstansiated and somewhat thuggish insults. I am quoting this one in order to have it stick around for a while just in case the author ends up determining rightly so that this post is a huge mistake and tries to edit it or something... I did invite them to come out and dance with me in broad daylight after all and I am happy to do so. I may not have any more time online until Monday sometime, so I am glad that some of the rest of you are willing to answer such deragatory comments. If they coninue on I may request that the mods remove a long drawn out conversation here from "my story" and maybe make it a new thread or something similar.This little bit only serves to show exactly what kind of Christians I was up against in River Road fellowship. I am assuming that your name here at GSC is a direct answer to my concerns that I have expressed publically doingjustfinethankyou. If you think being highmindedly judgemental and mean is doing just fine I suppose that is your business, but I know better. If you wish to discuss something specific make it another thread, I'm fairly certain the mods will not allow a long drawn out conflict here because this area has been somewhat reserved for a specific purpose. I know you have been taught and shown that virtually any nasty, astisocial, and damaging behavior can be justified in either God's name or in the name of "the ministry" but here you have to at least try to adhere to a format that has been set up for everybody's benfit.

THIS IS PART OF A CONVERSATION (quoting my own words)THAT ALL IN ALL I BELIEVE ENDED UP GOING PRETTY WELL. :) The comment in brackets I added just for here at GSC. _________________________________ Jeff Sjolander I am commited to being angry and sinning not "____". And as I have such two very, very good examples in front of my eyes and mentioned in this thread I will continue to do so. And since we seem to disagree that anger is an acceptible emotion in the face of lies and abuse I guess we'll just have to see how it all comes out in the wash "____". The "River Road Fellowship" that I remember seemed to relegate anger to the top-dogs and thereby allowed the top-dog to show himself as an avenger/real man. I think the repulsive truth is that his anger being shown off in front of everybody castrated the men and seduced the women into his bed and I AM NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT. But for my own conscience's sake I work real hard to also inform them as to my view as it pertains to how things really are/was. In order to provoke something a little better in them than the lies and coverup they have simply chosen to live in, not to mention the abandoning of family and friends who have been put through hell in order to party and have a good time. I DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT I AM FIGHTING FOR IS POINTLESS. At least I'm not holding anything back, that way everybody can make up their own mind. I have no secret knowledge or hidden agenda that I am aware of. And I do not want to bed the women or control anybody's life. And I am certainly not starting another screwed up and abusive ministry like Barnard did where everyone was beaten down and twisted around because of his glaring faults and the insane views he learned from Wierwille. I think it is far more stressful for me to simply stuff my feelings and not share fully. Especially when these guys have nothing more constructive to bring into the conversation than repeated insults, lies, and halftruths (Which IMO is a more subtle form of lieing). So my stress is doing fine, thank you very much.

I've been considering the judgement that the bible records Israel delivered to the cities of Canaan in the O.T. And since my considerations are along the lines of this thread I thought I'd just throw them at the fan and see what if anything comes of them. This view of those cities I find to be HIGHLY IRONIC considering most of us have TWI pasts.... I think it is likely that these walled cities ended up being some kind of tightly controlled sexually abusive mind control religious cults with a highly rigid command structure; a tyrant on top that was most brutal of all to all his little mini-tyrants in order to keep his underlings/co-conspirators in control. (Edited for the sake of clarification)

I wonder how they'd deal with a few outspoken Greasespotters who chose to get real talkative AFTER THE SHIP LEFT PORT?