JeffSjo

Just a quick visit if anybody is paying attention. This is part of "my story" as it applies to the internet now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I recently wrote this:"I don't really know much about you, I don't know for sure when I'll be back. But I do know I've seen treasure in your heart and even though I don't have the right to ask anything of you I nevertheless hope that one thing, your precious treasure is true." I can't speak for what the children of Wayfers believe, heck, I'm still working on what I believe. And as far as the internet goes, people can and probably should be careful about what they reveal. But since I happen to still hold the scriptures dear I mostly don't want to be overbearing, paranoid, needlessly cruel and/or judgmental, or come down hard on people who I don't know that well and end up just hurting them worse like some kind of manipulative douche bag might. And I wouldn't want them to be brought into any kind of pseudo-TWI culture where the top dogs hide their douchiness behind a few grateful supporters who aren't necessarily wrong in being grateful while they don't know what a douche bag their chosen leader really is. And I wouldn't want to be quick to forget how The Way International suckered almost all of us into following them under the guise of the leaders being our protectors from imagined dangers that us poor saps couldn't possibly ever learn to deal with. While in truth these same leaders were more concerned with their own status with in the group that allowed them to nail one gal after another. I might be proven a fool in believing and hoping for the next-gen to be proven true and good, but I won't be shamed for hoping for it and giving a damn.

I recently wrote this:"I don't really know much about you, I don't know for sure when I'll be back. But I do know I've seen treasure in your heart and even though I don't have the right to ask anything of you I nevertheless hope that one thing, your precious treasure is true." I can't speak for what the children of Wayfers believe, heck, I'm still working on what I believe. And as far as the internet goes, people can and probably should be careful about what they reveal. But since I happen to still hold the scriptures dear I mostly don't want to be overbearing, paranoid, needlessly cruel and/or judgmental, or come down hard on people who I don't know that well and end up just hurting them worse like some kind of manipulative douche bag might. And I wouldn't want them to be brought into any kind of pseudo-TWI culture where the top dogs hide their douchiness behind a few grateful supporters who aren't necessarily wrong in being grateful while they don't know what a douche bag their chosen leader really is. And I wouldn't want to be quick to forget how The Way International suckered almost all of us into following them under the guise of the leaders being our protectors from imagined dangers that us poor saps couldn't possibly ever learn to deal with. While in truth these same leaders were more concerned with their own status with in the group that allowed them to nail one gal after another. I might be proven a fool in believing and hoping for the next-gen to be proven true and good, but I won't be shamed for hoping for it and giving a damn.

THE FOLLOWING I POSTED ON MY FACEBOOK PROFILE,while speaking to someone who I will not condemn who is still somehow involved in Way International culture. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I have been considering how tough it can be for someone who has been led around for decades by The Way International to come to terms... with the truth that starting with Wierwille, top leadership is a bunch of lying, deceitful predators who are very skilled at spinning the truth to suit their purposes. And on top of that they have turned the Grace of God into unbounded lust, trying at every turn as far as I can tell to promote within Way International closed culture that allows them to excuse their sins while carefully picking out folks who are willing to collude with them and hide their shame. And oftentimes, after using these folks, but especially the women, they discard them like yesterday's trash. Now since you have expressed nothing directly to me except a desire to see me healed I bear you no ill will. Heck, if I wasn't completely certain of the things that I speak to you I would wish I didn't have to say them at all. But as things sit now I am fully convinced that for all our sakes we should come to terms with these things out here in the light." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What the heck folks, how could I not come back for a bit with Johnny coming clean here for a bit!? :D See, for me it's about motivation of the person asking Way victim's to forgive the abusers. And while someone may be willing to make a good case for it, if they have shown themselves already to be thuggish or a bully, it tends to discredit the sincerity of their suggestion IMO. And while someone may be well intentioned in their desire to see folks forgive in order to be healed I think in this case they just might not perceive the real need. Wouldn't becoming clear about the abuse, clear about the real character of the abusers, and clear about the nature of their continued deception be better than walking away from these hard realities? But since we are all different people I happily and needfully allow each to make up their own mind.

I found a questionnaire at a cult recovery site run by somebody who is for real IMO without any control issues. :) Legal help doesn't necessarily represent an answer for everybody, but if anyone is interested, I can hook you up with them. I hope posting this provides food for thought if nothing else. Here is the substance of their questionnaire which they let actual, qualified lawyers look over..... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please take the time to complete this form. At the bottom of the form, when you are done, press the "Submit Questionnaire" button to send the electronic form. Please also send any support documentation you feel might be meaningful. And remember to save letters, group literature and/or other relevant material that may be helpful. Name: Age: Male/female Home address: Your phone number: Work phone: Best time to reach you at these numbers: Your e-mail address Current work or profession: Is your work somehow related to the group and/or leader in question? Marital Status: Spouses name? How many children? Ages of each child: Name of group, leader or counselor: Name of person most related to your situation in the group: Name of local group and/or leader in your area: Group location address: How did you first come into contact with the group, leader and/or counselor? Where & when did first contact with the group, leader and/or counselor occur? What was the length of time you were involved? Was anyone else, such as a friend, business associate and/or family member also involved? What type of abuse, exploitation and/or personal injury did you suffer through your involvement with the group, leader and/or professional person in question? Describe this in some detail. Approximately how long and/or how many times, did you suffer such abuse? Did anyone else also experience personally injuries through abuse and/or exploitation that you can recall within or through the group, leader and/or professional person in question? Did an adult or minor perpetuate this abuse? Were any minors abused or harmed in any way through this situation? Have you required professional care as a direct result of the abuse, which you have cited? Has there been related physical and/or mental/emotional problems as a related result of this abuse? Explain. Have you ever been ill within the group? Did you receive proper medical and/or other professional attention? Who paid for this treatment? What money, material goods, property, etc. have you given to the group, leader and/or professional that is involved? Were other members of your family, close friends or professional/business associates somehow also involved with the group, leader and/or professional person in question? What specifically convinced you that the group, leader and/or professional person is destructive/harmful or negative? Are you now in contact with other professionals concerning this situation? Please name any professionals or persons you have contacted. Please include any additional information you feel might be helpful or in some way meaningful.

Feeling nostalgic for some of my earlier threads, these are three of my favorites, and yes I believe in the resurrection. hehehe "Grieved By The Way International" "SPIN DOCTORS, BLECH!" "This one's for Hona Lee" (On my part this thread was partly botched but directed at The Way as pertaining to the old "Johnny Lingo" video.)

Check this out..HAHAHAHA http://www.topix.com/forum/city/sedro-woolley-wa/T970M2MMNEP0FME29 Here is the content of the conversation............ This is a Sedro-Woolley public message board ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Victor Barnard victim Comstock, WI Here is a link that gives some information on some newer Sedro-Wooley residents. The leader of this group was taught how to dominate people and prey on young women by The Way International. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/20709... " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ all the money Whittier, CA sir are you making any sence?.......I just can't figure out if u r hating these people or with them?......this forum is dead.......do you know why? Well I do.. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Victor Barnard victim Comstock, WI Dear all the money, It's not really all that difficult to figure my intentions out as they are self-evident for the most part. Information for the sake of public welfare. I think the residents of the Sedro-Wooley area should be made aware of the situation. Here is a related link: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/19360... From that link, here is what one woman said as recorded in post#72: "If I may add another aspect of this... in the splinter group I was in and I will only speak of this because I can from first hand experience, anyhow besides me I have heard that Victor Banard who was the MOG(blah blah blah) has slept with almost all of the women in the ministry. Yes he is his fathers son. But heres my point. As the saying goes you never truely forget your first love...meaning the one you give yourself to. Alot of these girls I have heard he slept with (possibly even my own daughter) were definately virgins, what better way for him to steal, and control their minds and hearts? It's first love and apple trees my foot its more like I'm your first love forget Jesus Christ I have all you need. Yuck!!!!!" And one little thing "all the money", thanx for bringing my public notification to the top of this message board.:) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~" IF THERE EVER WAS ANY DOUBT FELLOW GREASESPOTTERS, THERE ARE WAYFER LOYAL FOLKS WHO THINK THEY ARE BEING ALL "SPIRITUAL" WHEN THEY CALL THE GREASESPOT CAFE "A DEAD FORUM."

Thank you kind sir, Yeah, I hear you. I would be lying if I said that such a response NEVER even crossed my mind. But I think my boy is better off in that I didn't completely go off the deep end.

Dear friend........... I hope and pray we get to continue this conversation some day soon, before we get to find out for ourselves. :)

I am so sorry for your loss Dooj. I never had the pleasure of meeting him but even here at GSC his presence was felt. But those of you that actually knew him sound like you are suffering a great loss with his passing and I feel for you all.

Thanks everybody! :knuddel: :knuddel: :knuddel: Just came back for a bit in order to answer a pm and print out "My Story". I've been asked to keep my Facebook account open, but I've also seen that they are/were planning on making folks pay a monthly fee later this summer. If they do that it probably isn't going to stay open. After a week or two I will get this account closed out, Speaking just for myself, I don't think I can afford to be addicted to The Greasespot Cafe. But it is real nice for me to be leaving when I'm certain that for the time being at least the bullies I knew here aren't up to their old tricks........some of them thought they knew them all. And just for the misled Wayfers who think that debil spurts are jumping out of my posts....(My ideal ending here)........ :jump: (Edited to remove a grammatical error)

Thanks Shellon. :) I'm just doing some pm's but I'm sure we'll talk later.

Even though I did think to say goodbye to The Greasespot Cafe once before I feel it necessary to do it again friends. This time it feels different for me though and I have some things to say in parting and I will follow through with my stated course this time. It has been an amazing experience, finding my voice at GSC. And for me it was a simple matter of getting the real story as to what was going on in The Way International in order for me to more fully make sense of what the heck happened in River Road Fellowship. I can't tell you folks enough how precious it is that there are a few people with the courage to make plain their ugly experiences while in The Way. I have found precious little of that kind of honesty among folks I knew in River Road Fellowship. One person had the courage to say it "on the record" and that is our own Granddaughter and she did it here at the GSC. When I first arrived here their were several folks who appeared to have worked their way into the good graces of folks here at GSC who were actively working to beat down and silence TWI victims. And among some of those who have been here much longer than me there were a few who told me that these folks were valuable long time members of GSC. In spite of that I thought these folks were playing TWI inspired games along the lines of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" in order to silence Way victims and I got angry. Well, it seems my instincts were right. Now they are no where to be seen. At least one seems to have abandoned an old GSC identity to take a new one here. Others have been banned because after going at it with them for a while GSC admin seems to have woken up to the fact that these trolls were actually harming TWI victims and that was happening right here at GSC. No matter the truth of these events that is my take on them and I am glad their voices are no longer here at GSC! And that leads me to another observation. For me, perhaps because of the limtation of this medium the Greasespot Cafe has come to resemble an empty pot of sorts. Or perhaps now that my voice has developed it is better stated as seeming to yell into a cave and the only response I get back is my empty echos. I have spoken to support people to hold to their anonymity when certain trolls had been berating them for it while maintaining their own anonymity. It was pretty easy to shut them up when I offered them the chance to put their own action where their big mouths had taken them and say who they were the same as I had. :B) Where are these guys? Good riddance! Also I have come to understand that the internet is a place where many people lie about who they are, some for sick and twisted reasons. This is why I will not beat people up for maintaining their anonymity, period. But because of what for many people are good reasons to maintain anonymity it does have an overall effect on those of us who are honest about who we are and are looking for real, live, flesh and blood friendship as I have plainly stated before. To us it leaves the Greasespot Cafe as an empty experience of sorts, and I do believe that is ok too. But these things have proven to be a factor necessitating a clean and open exit from The Greasespot. And perhaps I can share a little with you all before I go. As I have said, my life is pretty much broken as a result of River Road Fellowship. Even though I am very thankful for the chance to develop my voice here at GSC it has become somewhat of and empty, echo filled experience to continually post with not much follow up conversation. And I must now leave this in order to be able to face my mostly broken life. Hopefully, by the Grace of God I can eventually explore the possibilities that my voice might actually help people. But it can never be in a person free environment again, where all that I receive back at me is empty echos and necessary speculation as to my voice's effect for lack of feedback and friendship. But as my prospects are not good in any secular sense I can only hope that my voice can actually help folks. Now I must face debt, a depressed part of the country with few prospects for a man with my lack of qualifications, a broken family including my seven year old boy who needs a father even more in the coming years, and a community whose views of folks who have been put through the ringer as I have normally goes along with wariness and misunderstanding. But at least I have my voice. :B) Yeah, I really, really need to leave The Greasespot Cafe now. I will pm some of you who I seem to have developed somewhat of a relationship with and I will be leaving my account open for a time in case anyone wants to E-mail me. But in a few weeks time I will close my GSC account, and my Facebook account, I really need to get offline and into real life. It's not pretty, but necessary IMO.

ok See you guys later.

I remember it like that too Bolshie, But knowing now what Wierwille did to women is but one things that convinces me we were suckling on the poison pig. For him, that concept is what he worked into peoples' hearts to get them to look past whatever nasty thing they might have had knowledge of. Plus the fact that for him the church of Christ eventually resembled a Caananite sex cult temple, in part because we were no longer bound to the law, but could go beyond it. But not according to how Paul said it was good to use the law.... 1 Tim 1:(NKJV) 8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ According to The Way International...........breaking the law's morality is OK. .........................According to Paul...........Breaking the law is contrary to sound doctrine. In the old days I agreed with The Way International too. (Added in editing) Now that I think of it, no darn wonder it took a master builder to really teach it right. Imagine having to teach a bunch of uncouth "strangers"(*Eph 2:19) which parts of the Law are things we should heed and which parts we don't need to follow to the letter. I'm guessing it might have felt like this.... :o

Hi Shifra, I remember a few discussions I had with folks back in my Wayfer days. The problems with these discussions looking back on them was that they were based on PFAL classes, and my youthful illusion of insight was in truth just putting together different concepts unwisely or I was only parroting PFAL material. Plus as is not untrue in many groups, the conversation seemed to develop in a manner that tended to allow whatever we were into at the time. I remember coming back from a drinking party with one of my friends who said while we were considering whether or not what we were doing was good, "My mind is renewed." Sigh...We had been drinking, she was driving, and I went along with it. I know my views have changed for several reasons not the least of which is that I have managed to correct some of my old errors, plus I don't see PFAL as perfection anymore...not even close. I know it's not a direct answer to your stated desire to simply clarify the old Way doctrines you are trying to remember..... I think The Way's perverted idea of what Jesus Christ fulfilling the law really meant was just meant to allow us; but especially top leadership; to commit many sins without any consequences. What you describe, albeit only partially seems to fit with my newer perspective.

:huh: :P Till tomorrow then.

Well, only with the very best intentions....and even then I could be screwing it up. :B) To yell or not to yell.... To confront or to walk away.... To lovingly care for or to rebuke.... Mercy or consequences, maybe both.... If I decide to yell it just might be far more colorful than "nanny nanny boo boo" though. :B)

All they ever do in their skin is wine about us anyhow..... ok, that was bad. (added in editing) It is a yearly reminder to me now of how bad a religious group can be in terms of lying and deceiving.

OK, well I hope things go good for you here at GSC, Teachmevp. But ya just never know fer sure. :B)

I've been thinking about this record from Daniel..... Daniel 2: (NKJV) Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream 1 Now in the second year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; and his spirit was so troubled that his sleep left him. 2 Then the king gave the command to call the magicians, the astrologers, the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans to tell the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king. 3 And the king said to them, “I have had a dream, and my spirit is anxious to know the dream.” 4 Then the Chaldeans spoke to the king in Aramaic, “O king, live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will give the interpretation.” 5 The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, “My decision is firm: if you do not make known the dream to me, and its interpretation, you shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made an ash heap. 6 However, if you tell the dream and its interpretation, you shall receive from me gifts, rewards, and great honor. Therefore tell me the dream and its interpretation.” 7 They answered again and said, “Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will give its interpretation.” 8 The king answered and said, “I know for certain that you would gain time, because you see that my decision is firm: 9 if you do not make known the dream to me, there is only one decree for you! For you have agreed to speak lying and corrupt words before me till the time has changed. Therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that you can give me its interpretation.” 10 The Chaldeans answered the king, and said, “There is not a man on earth who can tell the king’s matter; therefore no king, lord, or ruler has ever asked such things of any magician, astrologer, or Chaldean. 11 It is a difficult thing that the king requests, and there is no other who can tell it to the king except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.” 12 For this reason the king was angry and very furious, and gave the command to destroy all the wise men of Babylon. 13 So the decree went out, and they began killing the wise men; and they sought Daniel and his companions, to kill them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now I know that from this record folks go all kinds of places, liking to make snide comments about Nebuchadnezzar, the sooth-sayers, or go in any number of other directions with this. I would like to focus on what I consider an amazing insight on Nebuchadnezzar's part. Sheesh, the king had grown up in a culture where doubtlessly many fortune tellers, magicians, and prophets had been held in high esteem, and it seems to me that how he really felt about all of them became obvious here. He doubtlessly knew that if he told them the dream that he would get any number of competing interpretations. He doubtlessly knew how well they could take his words and come up with something convincing, whether true or not. He was IMO fed up, and desperately wanted a true answer, even being willing to purge his entire kingdom of all the lying prophets and fortune teller types. I really, really like his wisdom. And for the record, I have my secrets. Do you want to give me God's answer for my secrets, then tell me the secrets too. Depending on who you are when you fail will determine how I act though, but I'm not making any promises. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I love this record too..... 2 Kings 5: Naaman’s Leprosy Healed 1 Now Naaman, commander of the army of the king of Syria, was a great and honorable man in the eyes of his master, because by him the LORD had given victory to Syria. He was also a mighty man of valor, but a leper. 2 And the Syrians had gone out on raids, and had brought back captive a young girl from the land of Israel. She waited on Naaman’s wife. 3 Then she said to her mistress, “If only my master were with the prophet who is in Samaria! For he would heal him of his leprosy.” 4 And Naaman went in and told his master, saying, “Thus and thus said the girl who is from the land of Israel.” 5 Then the king of Syria said, “Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” 9 Then Naaman went with his horses and chariot, and he stood at the door of Elisha’s house. 10 And Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored to you, and you shall be clean.” 11 But Naaman became furious, and went away and said, “Indeed, I said to myself, ‘He will surely come out to me, and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leprosy.’ 12 Are not the Abanah[a] and the Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 And his servants came near and spoke to him, and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do something great, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” 14 So he went down and dipped seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. 15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his aides, and came and stood before him; and he said, “Indeed, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, except in Israel; now therefore, please take a gift from your servant.” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I love to consider Naaman. Here was this bigshot that had a huge problem. He was used to being treated as an important man. He was used to having his King's priests treat him with respect. He was used to a big show. Elisha did not act like all the azzkissing sycophants he was used to, and he didn't actually treat him with disrespect either. Just told him to go wash in the river. And for the record I am not afraid to apply that analogy to us today in a figurative sense either. I love it that God Himself proved the truth to Naaman. FYI, it just so happens that sociopaths play people too, but in Naamnan's case there could be no doubt, HE WAS HEALED! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now,In this day and age shouldn't we heed these things...... 2Tim 3: 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. Mark 13: 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. 1John 2: 18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IMO, it is soooo bad out and about that thinking or being taught we can not be fooled is probably evidence of being fooled already. Shouldn't we become really, really good or at least try real hard to get it right this time?