ChasUFarley

Yeah, all of the above and... NO DRESS CODE! Come in jeans, shorts, bare feet, but just make sure you're dressed, please.... (pj's are ok on Sunday mornings...) but NO DRESS CODE! And while I'm at it... NO STANDING UP WHEN THE TEACHER WALKS IN! Gawd I hated that... or when a woman walked in the room - I mean, gimme a break! There's respect and then there's r-e-l-i-g-i-o-u-s s-t-u-p-i-d-i-t-y....

Some of you ex-TWI2-ers will cringe on these, I bet.... "You have to stay within the protection of the Household (or walls of Zion.)" "Plan the Adversary out of your life." (This was heard in conjuntion with lectures about scheduling.) "When you give, God will open the windows of heaven and pour out blessings that you haven't room enough to receive." (I thought he was always tossing out his chamber pot or gozunder for me, but anyhow....) "You have to make you weaknesses into strengths." ("Weakness was not allowed in the Promised Land" was another favorite like this - same barfy idea.) Krys - I hear you about being put on the spot to "give" (more like, be taken advantage of!) God forbid any single woman ever cleaned, baby sat, ran errands, etc. because she wanted to OR was actually paid for it. I hated baby sitting - absolutely refused to do it. No way. You can bet I had some annoyed leadership because I wasn't "blessing" them - TOO BAD! Heck, I even pay my own mother to baby sit my kids! (And she earns every penny!)

What ticked me off about the Strong In The Lord = AB$ thing was that after they had YOUR money, you better be ready to give YOUR time, and YOUR resources. It was never enough. Remember when Howard "The Holy Saint of Laidmen of The Word" Allen declared that ABS could come from the net income, not the gross - like, that was just major revelation! PHEW! AMAZING! I mean, where we had to pay taxes and had no choice, then our real income was just the net income - gross had nothing to do with it..... I remember thinking there was a hook in that statement when that rule was declared... But there wasn't.... The whole thing was a hook!

What a great walk down memory lane! I remember those days when Waydale was getting like a post or maybe two a day - at first there would be a couple of days sometimes with no posts at all. I remember lurking like a mad woman - that was before the ChasUFarley handle was born, as I was still "in" and didn't dare post. I enjoyed reading the posts that others wrote and immediately related to them - even the ones who'd been out for a while. I think about some of the initial Waydale posters - OrangeCat, who could come up with some of the funniest posts, Sudo arrived not long after that, and Radar. Yes, those early chatrooms could get "interesting", for lack of better words. I spent many nights with a bowl of popcorn and a bottle of wine just watching the action sometimes! LOL! It was better than anything on TV, that's for sure! As the Allen's lawsuit progressed and Greasespot Cafe went live, I remember thinking that Waydale might be getting shut down and that GSC was the next level. I think I was like the fourth or fifth poster on GSC after it first opened. Having GSC also took some of the 'sting' out of the closing of Waydale. Personally, I felt that I had put so much of myself into Waydale that I was really upset by it closing. Although I understood it had to happen - it wasn't within the Allens' control - I felt part of me was shut down, too. GSC helped get me through it - I know it may sound silly - I can't explain it fully... maybe someone can relate... Anyhow, for me the forums have been such a part of my life - I met my husband on Waydale, and my first son was born just a month or two before Waydale closed. I was able to share my new life with my old friends via Greasespot and couldn't be more thankful or happier for the connections I've been allowed via these boards!

I'm not asking this as an insult or whatever, but have you seen a doctor about this yet? This can be very serious and possibly could not be related to the root canal at all. I don't wish to scare you, but think you should persue this by a clinically trained person if it's already been 10+ days since the onset. Please don't mess around with this - you could have something more serious than just pressure from the root canal causing you to feel dizzy. Hope you are well soon!

That sounds like the town I live in... This last weekend we had three cars stolen in town - not hot wired - but the theives walked in to the owners home, took the keys off a key rack or table or out of a purse, and just DROVE off - the home and cars were all unlocked! People still leave their doors unlocked. (We don't, but if we ever forget I know the intruders will break a hip falling over toys, so I'm not worried!)

Thanks for the info Belle - I'll have to look if we have that here in NH... not exactly the Tex-Mex capitol of the world, ya know.... There's like three Taco Bell's in the whole state! LOL!

After reading y'alls' posts, reading Morgan's initial post, and then my own posts again, I can honestly say that: A. I don't believe that I missed Morgan's point - I defended what she did, not in so many words, but in being in agreement with her disbelief with the initial situation and then her reaction by calling the Church. I'd have done the same thing - and kudos to her for making the call. Although some posters after me said that Morgan was overlooked - I respectfully disagree, as this thread seems to have stayed on the subject of a "different" outreach approach and how parents dealt with it or would deal with it. Personally, I'd be pleased, as a parent, if my kids acted just as Morgan's kids did when they were approached by the church groups/strangers - kudos to them for thinking and not acting impulsively! I can't say that my 4 year old would do that - he doesn't have the concept of "strangers" down yet, so I watch him like a hawk! B. Although some posters have candy-coated what the church would do AFTER the invite was given to Morgan's children - which, ironically, Morgan herself was not aware of until she called the church later on to complain (her words) - that a permission slip would be needed from the parents prior to her children being allowed on the bus to the church. I don't believe I misunderstood this at all. Someone posted something to the effect of, "Oh, her kids wouldn't have been allowed on the bus without her permission, anyhow." - HELL-LO! BUT She didn't know that right? Isn't that why she called to complain and THEN was told about the permission slip! Sorry, but the timing of finding out about the permission slip AFTER the invite and the decline by Morgan's kids simply sucks. If I was in Morgan's situation, that church's integrity would be at a big, fat ZERO! That's lousey outreach because they've turned off a whole family with one little event - that alone should make them t-h-i-n-k about what they're doing! C. As someone who is involved with The American Cancer Society, a local women's club, a community hospice organization, two churches (one Greek Orthodox, the other one First Christian), The Red Cross, and a local nursery guild, I don't think I'm cynical about service organizations at all. I feel that there is so much need in communities for MORE service organizations. I'd much rather see service organizations or churches meeting the needs of a community than government/welfare. I'm talking about WELL ORGANIZED, WELL TRAINED, and WELL THOUGHT-OUT organizations taking care of the needs of the community - not some half-assed, fly-by-night, hey-we-got-holy-spirit-and-no-brains, group. It's the half-assed groups that scare hell out of me in these situations - it's these groups that I'm talking about when I mention obtaining parental permission, background checks, insurance, etc. If these organizations mean what they say about reaching out and helping others, then they should put their money where their mouth is - Otherwise, their outreach is for them selves - not the community - but to stroke their own egos. The Spiritual Care Coordinator who was at the hospital where I work, once told me about a group who wanted to come in and pray for patients. When he asked if they would be going to their own parishners who were hospitalized, they responded, "No. ALL patients." When he asked what they thought gave them that right, they responded, "All men are called to the glory of God," or some such drivel. They weren't there to give comfort, but to try to save people via their own belief system. Without even getting into the privacy laws they would be breaking, just on the most basic ethical standpoint, they were there to serve their own needs - not the needs of the patients of a community hospital. They had no respect for the beliefs of the individual patient that they claimed they were there to help. (Needless to say they were NOT allowed in the door to complete their task!) Perhaps my outspokeness about this 'outreach' situation comes from a cultural difference - I assume that Morgan lives in the South - and although I am fluent in Southernese and lived in AL and TN for 5+ years, I don't remember any churches picking up kids off the street like that - (I wasn't a parent then, so maybe I didn't notice if any did or not.) I am shocked that anyone would try this in this day and age - even a church. It's almost abstract to me - maybe that's because I live in NH, where our state motto is: Live Free Or Die. (If a church or anyone tried that in my community they wouldn't make it past one block!) I've said it once and I'll say it again - Probably 99.9% are good - heads up on the other 00.01%! Peace.

Lalao -- I'm not offended that anyone is offering transportation. Your post indicates I'm upset about programs offering transportation, which would be faulty logic, at best, considering that public schools offer transportation. I'm CONCERNED about how the program presents itself to the CHILDREN first - not the parents. It seems to be designed to hook the children into wanting to go - on impulse, almost. I'm CONCERNED that there isn't enough fact-finding taking place before permission slips are signed, assuming all of these programs require permission slips. I'm CONCERNED that the churches haven't counted the cost when they offer these programs the way they do. That's why - if you read my post - it's up to the RESPONSIBLE PARENTS to ASK QUESTIONS and be comfortable with the programs that are being offered to their children before allowing them to participate. All children have a guardian (parents, foster, relative, etc. - people who are responsible for their safety) who is there to make decisions for the child - even NO DECISION is a decision, if you think about it. I was in the YMCA program as a child. Both of my parents worked two or more jobs all the time (they were both civil servents) and nannies, sitters, daycare programs, summer camp - you name it - were the norm for me. I can assure you that even back in the 70's, I remember my mother filling out forms, reading over program booklets, etc., for information prior to giving permission for me to participate. There were safety measures in place back then - these programs receive government money and have lots of red tape to prove it. My CONCERN is about the fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants church organization that has a lot of zeal and not a lot of brains who might be running these programs. It's not about the bus. It's about the possibilities of harm caused by recklessness - even in the most unintentional of situations.

Doing a background check on someone would cost less than $20 for sufficient information on anyone who is going to work with children. It is free to check the national and state sex offender's registry via internet - just that alone can help a lot! You can search by name, by zip code, by radius from a zip code, etc. If the churches checked with their insurance providers, they may find some of the cost can be deferred. Also, if the churches have a non-profit status they could write off the costs easily and perhaps even have some costs waived. Don't be naive about how pedophiles can work themselves into communities and establish contact in children - in any way they can. Driving a bus for a church, working with a youth program, etc. - seemingly simple, wholesome things in the community - where they earn the trust of the children AND the parents - are some of the most dangerous. If you doubt my words, check out the Roman Catholic Church's fiasco over the past 5 years that has been brought to light by the media. Don't kid yourself. The hospital that I work for does complete background checks on all employees, volunteers, and clergy. All employees must take a drug test. The volunteers - who are mostly granny-types - retired women - submit to these checks with no problems - or they don't get to participate. In short, an ounce of prevention may save a pound of hurt - these churches who are balking at the idea of doing a check should better consider what may happen if they should find themselves in a lawsuit later on. These checks would be for the protection of the parishioners AND the church - why would the church want to harness themselves with someone who could be a HUGE liability to them? Additionally - if they are having someone drive a bus, are their drivers properly licensed? Do they check their driving records? How well are they insured? What are their policies and procedures if there is an emergency or an accident while your child is with them? If they're cutting corners on background checks, what other safty precautions are they skipping all in the Holy Name of Saving Money?! ============================================================= On another note, it is very disturbing to me, as a parent, that my children could be approached by a stranger and asked to get on a vehicle PRIOR to my chance to consider the invitation and whether I think my child should accept. I believe parent's permission should be obtained BEFORE the invite is presented to the child. To do otherwise is an insult to me and what I think is best for my child. It says that my child has the RIGHT to make decisions for himself - whether or not he has all the right information - when he is not emancipated from me. I would think that most children would be delighted to get on a bus to go somewhere and be with other children - I know that's how my 4 year old would think. I'm sure that 99.9% of these programs and church volunteers are harmless - it's the 0.01% that make me weary. Although it may have been a good idea 20 or 30 years ago, it has more risk and potential for harm today than good, and I live in a very low-crime area.

What is RO*TEL?.... Radar - We watched the game and feasted on: Chas' Atomic Wings 2 lb chicken wings, cut at the joints into sections Peanut or veg oil for frying 1 stick of butter 1 bottle of Texas Pete or other hot pepper sauce 1 or 2 cloves of fresh garlic 1 tbsp cayanne pepper 1 tsp hot red pepper flakes 1 tsp black pepper 1 tsp chili powder 1/2 tsp oregano celery blue cheese dressing (Marie's is our fav) Deep fry the wings in the oil until just crispy - but not dry. In a large skillet (I use a big black iron skillet for this) - melt the butter, add the hot sauce, and add all the other ingredients except for the celery and blue cheese dressing. After the wings are cooked, drain them and dump them into your hot sauce mixture to coat. Coat the wing well and let them 'stew' in the sauce for 5 mins or so. Remove wings with a slotted spoon and repeat the process until all wings are cooked and coated. If you like your wings extra crispy, finish them off under a hot broiler for a few minutes. Serve with the celery and blue cheese dressing. Sweet Potato Fries Cut up a bunch of sweet potatoes in strips - like fries. Deep fry the fries - they're done when they float, basically. You can serve with butter, salt, and maple syrup if you want - or just plain. (I like them plain, but the kids love maple syrup with them.) Honey Mustard Hot Dog Bites (for the rug rats) Sliced pieces of hot dog with honey and a little mustard and butter - all warmed together in a sauce pan. We washed it down with the new Double Bock by Sam Adams - excellent beer! And we followed it with a dose of Lipitor! (Isn't that what they make it for?) Well, you can use these recipies for next year - enjoy!

First, some info about the hardware: iMac G3 with X OS (location: first floor of house) PC - HP Paviliaion a5xxe with Win 2K OS (location 2nd floor of house) HP Color Printer hooked up (slave) to the PC (next to PC) Both are hooked to the internet via a NetGear Wall-Plugged Ethernet Extender Kit (patch cord from the router runs to a port that plugs into an outlet with another cord going from the router to the cable modem. On the upstairs level, a patch cord goes from the PC to another outlet unit - the electrical wiring in the house works as the network connection.) How can I hook up the PC and the iMac, please? I also want to also set up the printer to be the only printer we use. I've done some reading on this already, but haven't found a good resource yet that just walks me through it. By the way, I am loving the little iMac - smart little computer! Thanks for your help!

Since the money that came in during TWI's hey-day (late 70's/early 80's) was invested in stocks, savings, etc., it seems that LCM figured that serving up the cash-cow (people/members) was perfectly acceptable. How they've been able to keep their non-profit status with the golden parachuts they have set up is beyond me.... In this thread, someone posted that leadership didn't have a lot of 'bling-bling' - but there was another recent thread where several posters wrote about the life-style their leadership led and how they supported it. No, the women weren't dripping in diamonds like Tammy-Faye, but vacations to exotic locations, new cars, healthclub memberships, and spa outings were total fantasy for 95% of the peons, but reality for many leadership - even having a savings account was possible for leadership - it seems the peons lived way more on a needs basis than leadership did! I think LCM thought that if he created a high-octane ministry of white-collar believers that their higher income would result in higher ABS. (This was in the mid-late-90's.) I remember a leadership training tape where he lectured about outreach to people who were already 'discipes' - people who didn't have a lot of needs. (What were we supposed to offer them if they already had everything?) He was so out of touch with reality. I wonder how he feels working his blue-collar job now? Can he make ends meet and still ABS above 10%? I'm sure he has no trouble - as I'm sure he's not driving a WOW-mobile, either. He had a golden parachute, I'm sure!

I've got a good, TRUE story about a crime for you... This happened last spring... I was leaving a local department store, had both kids in tow, when I noticed a Chevy Aveo racing through the parking lot. Concerned that my oldest child wasn't paying attention, I stopped the shopping cart and grabbed his hand, with my eye on the speeding car. The Aveo, which had four teenage or early-twenty-something boys in it, stopped right next to a lady who had just gotten out of her car to go in the store. A boy jumped out of the passenger-side back seat, smacked the woman in the chest, and grabbed her purse. She yelled out at him, but was smart enough to let go of the purse. He jumped back in the car with the purse, and the driver sped off through the parking lot again - but - and this is the part that I love - SLOWED DOWN FOR THE SPEEDBUMPS IN THE PARKING LOT! TWICE! I had no trouble reading his new, temporary license plate, and could even see the dealership sticker on the back of the car. I helped the woman in the store and we called the police. The boys were caught less than an hour later and the lady got back her purse and everything. All four boys were arrested and charges were pressed (although they probably only ended up picking up litter, as they turned out to all be juvies.) Dumb, dumb, dumb!

dmiller's post about the U of L experience he had struck a chord for me... TWI, and pretty much any manipulative organization (cult) for that matter, sets up barriers of elitism so that members can feel superior once they cross the next barrier. Just the fact that words like "foundational", "intermediate", and "advance" are used in the names of the classes, it also seems that the titles of the classes pigeonhole the student at a level of expertise. In otherwords, your value is only as great as the level of class you have achieved. Additionally, you're not supposed to discuss what in a class, "You'll find out in the class," you're supposed to tell curious, future students. So, a food chain is established before a person even enters the WC. Let's even look at the term "Way Corps" - it's taken from the name "Marine Corps" right? The Marines are known to be the first in battle, the first on the beach, right? So, the Way Corps are the first in the spiritual fight, or so it is implied by the name and how it's connected to the Marine Corps' name. As the Marines are trained to think they are the ultimate fighting machine, so are the WC (or they were, at least.) What about when someone left TWI? It was considered a big loss if they were WC - even worse if they were ordained - but if it was Joe Twigger there was a totally different attitude. It was like, "Oh, well. No big deal!" They used people on so many levels - not just to get places or for personal gain, but to just make themselves feel better about the sorry excuse for a so-called MOG that they were (are!) - sometimes I just wanted to force feed some WC their stinkin' green nametag - sideways and dry!

Funny, I remember LCM getting some tixs to a big golf game... (forgive Chas - she knows NOTHING about golf) - it was like a big tournament or something -- Anyhow, he certainly didn't seem to mind rubbing elbows with the worker ants then, did he? If he STILL feels that way, I wonder how he must loathe himself, since he is no longer MOG, WC, and not even a lowly HHFC - he's NOW a bump, too! (And that's a compliment!)

Amazing what you can do with PhotoShop these days... Hey, men! I bet her _____ is longer than your ________!!

Being mad or angry is a normal emotion when people channel it properly. Spend sometime with a toddler or pre-schooler - this is what I've learned from my son. He used to get really upset about things and kick, scream, throw a royal fit, when he was beyond all frustration with a situation! My husband and I didn't know what to do - we're not like this (well... I have my moments at certain times of the month)... but he was just NUTS! So, I decided to figure out how to help him deal with this... Rather than telling him he's wrong or dismissing his emotions, I ask, "What upset you?" and make him talk to me about it. Usually he's upset because his baby brother did something to one of his toys, or I asked him to do something he didn't want to do. Then I tell him, "It's okay to be mad at me (or his brother, or whomever) but that doesn't mean you can ________ (yell, kick, scream - whatever his bad behavior was). You need to ________ (then I tell him how he should handle it - like, do what I asked or trade his brother a different toy.)" If you apply that to yourself - Why am I mad? Is this a logical way to handle this? How can I change this situation? - then you can better channel your emotions with just a little logic. I've seen a huge change in Kristopher since I started using this method of reasoning with him. The times that he's totally unreasonable, then I've learned aren't due to his anger but almost always because of another physical - not emotional - reason - he's hungry, has to go potty, needs a nap - whatever - but can't get past his emotions because he's distracted. So, we get that need met - and he's fine. So, you may want to consider if there is another - physical reason - why you're getting angry or can't get past something... Now hate... I save that for things - not people -- Like, I hate getting a speeding ticket but the policeman was just doing his job. Or I hate getting a shot, but the nurse had to administer it. I hate having to change a dirty diaper, but no the cute little guy who made the dirty diaper... I hate bills... and have nothing nice to say about the companies who send them to me (isn't that life?!) Just some thoughts...

I certainly agree that this woman's situation is more than tragic - how horrible! Please don't think I'm being cold or clinical by posting this, but I feel there's some lacking information and some mis-information in this article. I disagree that she was not told why the operation was performed: "She was told she had streptococcus, a flesh eating bacteria, and toxic shock syndrome, but no further explanation was given." The article also tells us: "Mejia said after she gave birth to Mathew last spring, she was kept in the hospital with complications." But does not give us any details on what the complications might have been. The article does tell us that she was transported to another hospital for the surgery - and this is where I have a problem with the article... Whenever a patient has a proceedure done they must sign a consent form for the proceedure, anesthesia, and any testing that may be done. This is a LAW. Additionally, when a patient goes under the knife, they have a face-to-face dialogue with the surgeon before going to the operating room. The surgical site(s) are identified by the surgeon, patient, and at least two other nurses. This is all assuming that the patient is conscious, but we don't have that information from this article... The other problem I have with the article is that they don't interview anyone from the other hospital - it seems someone from Risk Management or Quality should have addressed their reasoning for not speaking more directly about this case. I have a feeling there's another side to this story, in other words. They also do not talk with anyone in the epidemology or infectious disease department - no expertise on the diesease is given at all. There should have been some clinical information provided. Here's some links about the type of strep infection she had: http://www.factbites.com/topics/Necrotizing-fasciitis http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic332.htm http://www.nnff.org/ The last link has some interesting survivors' stories - one kid developed this condition after getting a small wound from pulling out a sofa bed - a simple thing turned out to be so dangerous. The child almost lost his leg from it! Some of the cases that are presented do not have a cause of infection - no one really knows for sure. If this woman was as critical as needing this sort of extreme debridement, then she is lucky to be alive at all - again, I don't mean this to sound uncaring - she had a 1 in 5 chance of survival. My impression is that the hospital did not quickly diagnose her condition, and that is the more likely cover-up. I doubt she was not informed or gave consent. The hippocratic oath starts with "first, do no harm..." if the hospital or medical staff of the hospital are to blame for this woman's outcome, then they certainly should take ownership for that and make proper restitution. However, as the article is written, it sounds as though she was misidentified as a quad amputee and had this horrific outcome - I don't believe that was the case. I would be interested in following this case and what the court findings are for this...

I can explain the smiles - it goes a little somethin' like this ---- Three *ladies*... Six hands... but.... you can only see TWO hands in the photo... (You do the math...) (More Way Math!)

Good one, Belle! Isn't that what everyone who is worked up about this movie is afraid of? They played cowboys as little boys, and now that they're afraid that little Johnny and Tommy will see this and want to.... er.... go blazin' trails. But it ain't a kid's movie, right? So what's the problem? To Americans, cowboys are a scared thing - the manly man on the range, doing very manly things. They're heros. It would be like saying Superman was gay, or Batman was a trans. Surely there's never been a gay cowboy before.... So, why did the Lone Ranger spend so much time with Tonto?

Pawnbroaker -- No offence intended - I'm talking in broad strokes here and my experiences - I certainly didn't research every pawn shop in the US to draw this conclusion. There's pros and cons to all the avenues one could go down to aquire a 'new' instrument - pawn, eBay, music store (chain or mom-n-pop), private sale, etc. Hats off to you if you take the time and trouble to really know what you're selling - in my experience many don't. They wouldn't bother tuning or cleaning a guitar, making sure it was humidified and stored properly, or making sure it was set up right so that people could play it properly before they paid for it. If you do that, then you are truly the exception to what I've seen. Even the ones who sell on eBay have a "as is" policy with things unless their listing was really off... I deal with those very carefully. (We have a collection of 8 guitars and 3 amps and a piano and a flute and a keyboard and a bunch of electronic pedals that go with the guitars and.... ) The point in my earlier post is to give Shellon information so that she can consider what will work best for her situation and make a decision. Since I'm in a different part of the country (New Hampshire), what would work as a good or bad avenue here may not be the same for her in her part of the country... By the way - we're in the market for a Fender Starcaster - email me please if you happen to come across one! :)

IF the man does not plead guilty, when he confessed to his crime in other ways when he was seeking forgiveness from the victim, then he is not truly sorry for his actions. If I was the victim I would hang him out to dry just for not saying he was guilty of the crime after he talked about with me via phone or email or whatever. For him to plead "not guilty" after that - that's like peeing in her face after he was done raping her. Rape is a crime. He committed a rape 20 years ago. He broke the law. He should expect to be punished for it. He should have considered this may be a possible outcome for his contacting the victim. If he didn't, then he's as stupid now as he was when he committed the rape. If the forgiveness means as much to him as his laying his personal freedom on the line and risk the possibility of jail time and and criminal record, then he should be willing to surrender. Otherwise, his asking forgiveness was superficial and carries no meaning. It doesn't matter why the woman was in the frat house. If she didn't want sex, then he shouldn't have forced it. Period. It doesn't matter if they were at a party or whatever - rape is rape. It seems to me that it's implied the woman was slutty because she was present in a frat house. Perhaps she was no puritian, but that still does not justify his actions. In short, he should take ownership of his past and his present. He did something horrible in the past. He now wants forgiveness but isn't willing to admit guilt. Good luck to him finding a jury that will be sympathetic to him now. He would do better, from my point of view (a woman's point of view) to basically throw himself at the mercy of the court.

So.... What did you decide to do? I'm on pins-and-needles - got goose bumps - this is big... (Can you share?) (Please?)

Shell -- I agree with Ted on the Musician's Friend referral - they're good to deal with and often have stores near by. Most orders over $99 get free shipping. Look for 'blem' sales - sometimes something will have been returned for a minor reason and they'll knock some more money off it. Musician's Friend on eBay is another story - very over priced and often have wrong info listed in their auctions on vintage instruments. On buying a vintage wind instrument.... Don't do it - especially from a private sale or pawn shop. Why? Whether it's trumpet, flute, or sax, musicians happen to excrete saliva into the instrument. All these instruments have release valves for this problem, as when you're marching in a band or performing things can get juicy (Chas plays flute and used to play sax - in marching bands, symphony, and solo). If the instrument isn't properly cleaned and stored this can lead to corrosion in the instrument. Where these instrument keys or valves are concerned this can also cause sticky valves and problems with performance. If you do opt to go used, go to a real music store and see what they have for trade-ins. (I love a good locally owned shop - they'll always treat you right!) The beautiful thing about dealing with a music store is that you can eventually trade up for something nicer or different (say she wants to play sax or French horn later) later on - like you would with a car. If the music store is worth their weight in salt, they would have properly cleaned and set up the instrument so that it could be in the best working order possible - including polishing it. They also usually warantee things for 30 days after purchase - no pawn shop offers that! Pawn shops don't do this and usually know very little about what they're selling. The other problem I have with pawn shops is that you gotta figure that the previous owner did not have a lot of money - hence, he or she was dealing with a pawn shop - so they may not have taken the best care of something (perhaps it was their kid's or whatever...) They also won't give you any support once you buy the instrument - you can't return it next week when the keys stick closed!