ChasUFarley

the computer forum would have no unanswered questions...

The question still remains... What the heck qualified Rosie-lie to be the next president? Here's what we know so far: --She had one year of FWC training - WC training these days is 5* years. --She had some money. --She had a career. --It seems she couldn't control her own children. --She's pals with the former president's wife, Donna. --She has "major pets" (cats). --She owns her own home. --She NEVER ran a fellowship (is this true?). --She NEVER went WOW. --She's ordained (WHY?? What's her ministry?) Here's my question: What made her MORE qualified than those who'd been at HQ since the earth cooled and could actually lead, teach and manage? Is she really the best they have anymore? (And I'm also wondering what qualified her to be ordained! - I mean she isn't exactly a walking example of 2 Timothy, is she?) *5 years = 1 prep year where you live with or work v. closely w/ leadership (going WD did not count a couple of years ago - I dunno about now), then your apprentice year, then your 3 years of training.

LOL - karmi - too funny!

Allen - You're a kiwi, right? What happened to Rhyse Mill*r? Is he stll in NZ? Damn - the way he talked the NZ household was top-notch - of course no one would talk of the things you posted about here...

Garth -- You don't hear this often on this board but man.... I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT! I've checked around the documents on line and can't find anything supporting the closing of Waydale other than it being Allen's choice - So... I STAND CORRECTED! At least for the moment... ;-)

Ummm... If you read many of the posts of people who were in, under situations like my own, who have moved on and have new lives, you will see how we help them leave. It's the same thing that helped me to leave. I found people in similar situations who left and weren't "grease spots by midnight" - I've written about my new life already on this thread... I'm blessed, strong (youknowit!), and love my life today. It is through connecting through personal experineces and seeing there's life on the outside that will help innies get out. You miss that we're NOT saying it's a prison - we're saying "We know it's hard to leave - but look at us! We've been where you are - you CAN DO IT! It's not always simple, but it can be done!" It's easy to say "get over it" - it takes work and love to say "here's how to do it."

Lemme tell you something... Anyone who's been in TWI 2 has experienced "tough love" - it's more like "no love", IMHO... Again, you didn't tell me when you were in, Oldies, so I have no frame of reference for your possible experiences. Here's some tough love for ya: When hubby & I were 'released' from staff we were given 8 hours to pack our stuff and get bus tickets. Since we hadn't been on staff for very long and used all our resources (read: sold everything but our books, clothes and very few personal belongings to go on staff) we didn't have much money for bus tickets or for what was coming next. We were sent back to TN but to a city we had never been to. It was upon arrival that we were told we were on "spiritual probation" - which, I suspected we might be - but the real stinger was that we were NOT to contact ANYONE standing in the ministry. We were told we had ONE WEEK to get jobs and housing or we'd be M&A'ed. We were also told we were not going to be staying with anyone but in a hotel - and then we were promptly dropped off at a rather expensive hotel - $60+ a night - we weren't asked if it was okay for us - it was what was most convient for the jerk who picked us up that night who had the title of 'area coordinator' at the time... We had to swing into survival mode - it wasn't freedom of choice - it wasn't our choice to go to that city, to be put up in that hotel - none of it. We learned about what our situation would be like off-staff one little ugly piece at a time. If I wanted to try to save my marriage - and I gave it one last chance - I had to go along with it. I had been married 5+ years already and wasn't ready to let go - not yet, not totally. I had to go along with it - it hurt like hell because we'd given and given and given but when we had a weak point we had no one helping to strengthen us - they just shunned us - we were like disposable to them. The TWI I experienced was all about tough love - to an extreme. Weakness wasn't overlooked and mistakes were forgiven - it was just the opposite. So, if tough love really works, how come TWI had so many people walk away?

Oldies - those words and $1.50 won't even get you a cuppa coffee these days... Again, you're over simplifying things - people in a complex situation won't buy what you're selling. Leaving TWI these days involves a lot more than just "finding the door" for most. It means having to get a new job, move, get a divorce, be ready to fight for custody of your kids, having your name dragged thru the mud in a public setting (I had some LCs who were great at that - it was horrific to listen to because you wondered, "Shoot... Who's next?"). Those are just a FEW of the obsticles that could be in the way of current innies - never mind the lack of support they'd have on the outside because they've got little or no friends or family left to go to... Many have had to get professional counciling (as opposed to the unprofessional version we were offered in TWI)... It's also hard to change -- people don't like to change even when they know it's the best for them - even when they're in an emotionally unhealthy enviroment. I'm sure it's a lot harder on those who have been in for a long time or have been in upper-leadership positions. They have to come to grips that it was wrong to remain in the organization... I respectfully say this to you, and any others who may share your, "So-Just-Leave! What's-Wrong-With-You?" mentality -- How entrenched were you in the lifestyle that TWI leadership thought you should be leaving? How long and what years were you in? What Belle, myself and many others have said here is that "IT'S NOT THAT EASY - BUT - IT CAN BE DONE!" Those of us who have recently been there have posted about it. Have you not read what we've written?

fer real? So, what qualified her to be on staff or in a leadership position? (Sorry Belle - I know I may derail this thread, too...)

Thanks for the ideas - Some of the things we've been doing but they've gotten old or whatever - seems like everyone mentioned their kids liked to play with boxes - mine likes the boxes the toys came in the best - he could look at the pictures and ask, "Mommy, what does that say?" for hours on end! (Daddy just took one his favorite boxes to the dump last week - we were in big trouble for that!) Just this week Kristopher discovered "Rescue Heroes" - we had someone give us a bunch of the toys and movies. He now loves to rollplay - I'm "Wendy Waters" and he's "Jake Justice" - it's too cute! (I asked him which Rescue Hero that Andreas was (our 8 week old baby) and Kristopher said, "He's just a baby who needs to be rescued!")

HA! My child is the reason why Mr. Clean Magic Erasers were invented!

Sharon, I am sorry if you have had some bad experiences in the forums or been offended by posts that have been made. I am hopeful that none of them are my posts, but if I have perosnally offended you, please let me know in a private message. That being said... Yes, some people who post here are rude. Some are just so passionate about their beliefs that they are willing to stoop to personal attacks against others posters. A personal attack is the lowest form of logic - it's a neathandertholien way of making their point, but they do it by verbally clubbing others to do it. There are also people who can give a good debate - man, I love a good debate - and actually 'broaden' others perspectives about things. I appreciate and respect that kind of passion. Those are the posters who are polite and willing to share their knowledge, experiences, etc. with others to prove a good point. I've been posting on the Cafe and Waydale now for over 5 years - I've taken my share of knocks and knocked back a few times, too (Hey, I'm not ChasUFarley for nuttin') After a while you'll know who's threads and posts are worth your time and trouble and those threads and posts that are just "trouble".... And if things get too rough, lemme know... I can change my handle to "Guido" for you, if you need me to... ;-)

Not to derail the thread or cause Belle to get another gray hair becuase of my being a bad girl, but... LCM was hired as a trainer - not a CEO. Interesting, because he said many times in meetings that he didn't have to be the president of TWI, he could have been running any corporation anywhere - he had the ability to do it. (What he didn't fully disclose was that he'd be running it INTO THE GROUND!)

Amen, brother! Someone posted something about not even being able to take a vacation - Heck, never mind that - I remember having to fill out a frekkin' form when I wanted to visit my mother in the next state, 90 mins away! If I left for a day it seemed like everyone wanted to know about it and upper leadership had to "approve" it - and I was almost 30! HCW - I hear you about those "company men" who just wanted to climb the ladder. It seemed to me that some of the ones who were busy jockeying for a better leadership position were people who would always be "ZEROES" in the "real world" - the only place they would ever have a title or respect (even if it came from spineless yes-men) was in TWI. They were the ones that made me watch my back every moment - they would do almost anything to get ahead or to look good - real psychopaths. However, when I was on staff there weren't people really looking to fill your shoes - this was in the late 90's. Guess things had changed, huh? I remember one couple telling me that they thought we were crazy to go and that we should reconsider because they had been and found it to be a snake pit. (They were right - wish I could thank them but they're still IN!) I thought about this thread some more today and about my experience leaving - interesting thing I remembered was that when I made that last call to leadership to say I wasn't going to twig that night - or ever again! - They told me to take a "LOA" (leave of absence) and think about it. He was very cool about it and said he understood where I was coming from. He knew I was fed up with things - hell, I felt he was honestly sympathetic to my situation and cared! It was refreshing!!! (But not refreshing enough to keep me there...) I was invited to come back, if I wanted to (but call first to talk, okay?) - I was, in fact, given an open door to go in or out of, as I choose. I respected that. I probably couldn't have asked for a more dignified way to exit, although I'm sure my name was mud somewhere sometime after that because of how gross the majority of the leadership in that area was. There was, however, the bright spot of that TC who I was on the phone with that night... I tip my glass to him!

Socks -- Good analysis - sounds like you've been watching Fox News at night like we do! ;-) I think that by TWI having a settlement out of court it also gave them a big opportunity to do more DAMAGE CONTROL. They wanted people to think that they did it to save money on lawyers or protect the ministry against the 'evil doings' of the Allens. There were spins, at least in my area, where it was said that LCM was 'framed' and even as far as the lawsuit - the whole thing - being nothing more than a rumor. Of course those innies who asked about it were told that they'd get more info on a "need to know basis" (which as know means "none of your damn business!"). Also, I know of cases where some innies, who did some homework about the lawsuit/settlement terms on the internet, and then confronted their local leadership about the "truth" - they were in deep doggie doo just for Google-ing about it. I remember some of them posting on Waydale shortly before it shut down - another term of the settlement. Socks - you hit the nail right on the head about TWI when you said "If you're a liability in their eyes, you're on your own and you'll soon be gone." They probably wish they'd seen LCM as a bigger liability before they did... Hey - WHY DIDN'T THEY SEE LCM AS A LIABILITY SOONER? I mean, they let the fox watch the chicken coop basically, didn't they? Where was their in-depth spiritual perception then?

Oldies -- I don't know where you got your facts from about the Allens lawsuit but you are off base with it... The word "RAPE" is in the complaint that was filed. If the Allen's couldn't prove it then their butts would be fried - that didn't happen. There were alligations of physical restraint. There were many alligations - check out the link I posted above and get the facts... I don't have a transcript of the court proceedings because they're sealed - NO ONE has it. NO ONE knows the settlement terms either, so I don't know how you get off saying that "she made out nicely" in the settlement. There's other articles too in the GSC archieves - PJRoberge has some stuff on his web site too, from my understanding. I don't have time to do all the legwork and get links for you. You'd do well to get some more information about it...

Allen Lawsuit Here's the article detailing what the complaint was against Martindale - the "r" word is in there for y'all who don't remember it the first time... It's quite a shopping list! Since there wasn't a counter lawsuit it's probably pretty safe to assume that they had evidence beyond reasonable doubt. Also, anyone who's ever been a complaintant in a legal action such as this will tell you that you have to be ready to take it all the way through the process - you can't assume you're going to get an offer to settle or even win the case. The Allen's could have lost and been sued in return - neither happened... You do the math. In my opinion this is on-topic with this thread because it shows the mentality that upper leadership had - the president of the ministry - had with people. People were possessions - not humans - they were to be used. When they were no longer useful then they could be cast aside like a broken toy. Sure, people CHOOSE to stay in - but what was the motive? Was it to keep their family intact? Or because they thought things might get better? Like myself, I don't think that many of them would be ready to leave until the cost of staying became more than the cost of leaving - once people had less and less to loose, they found the exit sign... I really wish some of the upper leadership-types that left would post on this thread because I know from previous threads that some of them really got a ration for leaving... Some of them have some rather 'enlightening' stories... But then, they're just mindless victims, right?

That's probably fodder for another thread but I would dare say it probably has something to do with a lot of DIRT on someone, which caused her to have some leverage... being buddies with his wife probably didn't hurt either... Some of our posters who are in the KNOW on this - Radar, Catcup, Linda Z, etc., could probably really speak to this...

I was afraid that by leaving I was "failing". Fear of failure. I had stayed in TWI after my marriage had failed, thinking that things would get better and I'd reapply for the Way Corps. I wanted to be a minister and loved serving - I was at every event possible and always tried to be the first to sign up for the crew. i started serving God in that capasity almost as soon as I finished my first PFAL class. But to leave - that would be washing 12 years of my life down the drain - I'd loose a lot of friends, etc. - It got to the point where the cost of leaving was less than the cost of staying - that's when I knew I'd had enough. If the life I have now is failure, then I'm the biggest looser you ever met!

HCW - I take no offence to your posts. I've been posting about TWI since early 2000 and have come across many a-poster who left before or during DA FOG, who has trouble accepting what the ministry really turned into... I'm not offended by it - likewise, I wish things had been as sweet as I heard about from those of you who were in the ministry when it was young and a little more innocent... My beef really isn't with those who are in disbelief - but those who sport the "get over it" 'tude and don't understand why we talk about it... or think we're being cry babies... or that the decisions we made were simple ones with no cost involved - HA! If they're so well-balanced, why are they here at the Cafe, in the About the Way forum? It's like someone walking into a public restroom to b!tch about the smell, you know? Makes no sence. Peace, HCW.

OM – You’re the one who’s not reading. I said earlier that I think you talk outta both sides of your mouth. Your additional posts prove it. What you said that really frosted me today was: “Instead of looking at twi-2 folks as helpless victims who can't leave, I see them as Christians who've made a choice where they want to be.” You then almost come around by saying … “However, I'd like to amend my previous dissent and say that there possibly were and are some folks who made decisions to stay in TWI because of fear.” But dude, you BLOW IT when you say: “That's why I try to treat participants in twi-2 as responsible adults who can make decisions on their own. I think treating them like infantile helpless mindless victims doesn't do any good.” Oops! Your arrogance is showing! NONE of us TWI-2-ers, that I’m aware of, is NOT taking responsibility for our decisions. We are saying that we did not have many reasonable choices at the time. We are saying there were extreme conditions for many of us who did the best we could. Forgive me for speaking for the group, but I think I can safely say that most of us thought it was: just the area we’re in” or “bad leadership that will be moved” that made for the rough times we had. When Waydale popped up on the internet and people could finally speak out in a forum that accessible internationally, and then we could see, it was not just US – people started leaving long before the Allen lawsuit hit the news. When that all came out it was only easier for people to leave! I used the situation that Mrs. Allen was in as an extreme – but well-known situation – where someone was victimized. Not by any choosing of her own. You think “she made out nicely” when she was RAPED and then settled a lawsuit out of court – made a choice as a person who wasn’t helpless – in other words, she choose to be a victim of a VIOLENT CRIME? That’s insane! Are you married? Do you have a daughter? Or maybe a sister or close female friend? Let’s say one of them gets raped and settles in a lawsuit – you gonna say, “Way to go, Sis! Hey, can you sport me some dough?” How about YOUR SISTER IN CHRIST?! – you just said that you think of those who are in TWI2 as CHRISTIANS – do you, really? You do not act as if you give a flying flip about your brothers and sisters in Christ – how “Christian” is that?! By the way OM – you are extra special ed delusional if you think that because LCM isn’t in the prezzy chair that things are any easier. Please tell me you don’t honestly think that he was really running that show. The same people who were in charge in the 90’s are STILL IN COMMAND… I post and will continue to post about my time in TWI because it was through the internet and forums like this one that convinced me that I would be just fine when I left TWI. I’m “over it” AND I believe my experiences can help others AND I believe that where my life is at NOW is a testimony to what really is available outside of that organization – all things I didn’t think – and was constantly TOLD – were not available when I was in.

WordWolf - Thanks for doing the homework and posting the links! I have trouble accessing the regular reply box and can usually only post with the "Quick reply" window - THANKS!

Oldies - Methinks you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth: YOU SAID: "That's why I try to treat participants in twi-2 as responsible adults..." I'd be hard pressed to find a posting of yours on a twi-2 thread where you ACTUALLY do that... I also don't see where ANYONE says they were a mindless victim - however some people's situations were more complicated than others - some CHOOSE to stay becuase leaving would have caused them more personal damage because of the teachings and practices from TWI at that time. Maybe they did it to try to keep their marriage in tact - like Hope and IGotOut did. Maybe others did it to keep their whole family as intact as possible - too many families are splintered because some are "standing" and some are not. Others stayed because they thought it would get better - it just had to, right? (HA!) I've read many-a-thread where you tell people to "get over it" and discredit other's personal experiences because you were either fortunate enough to be in a very 'true to the Word' pocket of believers and leadership, were on some really good meds, or had on rose-colored glasses. I'm sure you've never made a decision because of fear or other negitive emotions, have you? Yet, your posts seem to ding those of us who were in TWI2 for any length of time who post about it. People over-stayed their time in TWI for many reasons - I know many were because of family or spouse who were "in" that they would no longer be able to be with if they left. Some stayed because they didn't want their "dirty laundry" aired publically by leadership if they left - EVEN AT THE TWIG LEVEL... I recently found out (just this last year) that personal information about my marriage and my x-husband were discussed at a lunch time following our dismissal from staff. My husband was 'smoked out' as a homo by upper leadership - incidentally, by someone who is a known homosexual (although she witnessed she was healed at many a WOW training...). We were placed on 'spiritual probation' and he was eventually marked and avoided... I had to leave him if I didn't want to be m & a'ed too. I CHOOSE to leave him at that time. I choose to stay in a few more years because I had invested a lot of time in it and thought of the believers as my family. I choose to leave when I got fed up with leadership straining at the gnats in my pathetic, single-gal life - I had nothing left to loose. That's what it took for me to leave - my marriage of almost 7 years was gone, not a pot to pi$$ in or a window to throw it out, and no secrets left in my life because my 'dirty laundry' had been all aired out. Hell - why not leave?! Best decision I ever made! (BUT not the easiest!) I think for you, Oldies, is the bigger issue of not understanding why we still discuss this because it seems like you have trouble when you can't relate to something... Why do we discuss this? BECAUSE IT'S STILL GOING ON... If you feel left out, why don't you hook back up with TWI for seconds? Shellon's daughter recently had a baby - but because some of her daughter's father's family is still "IN" they are not in the picture for welcoming that newest member of their 'earthly family'. Another splintered family! Bell posted about what was said when John Reyn0lds left as a BOT - I'm sure it was sugar-coated compared to what was said at a WC phone hook-up... The really sick part about TWI-2 is that they set standards that no one could honestly live up to - they made it almost impossible to be in fellowship with the Present Truth - and then when people did leave they made "examples" out of them. NO ONE wanted to be that example - it was a form of blackmail... Do you get it? No one is saying they were a *mindless* victim - they are saying they had to make hard decisions and compromise - sometimes in ways that YOU couldn't possibly understand. Let me put it to you another way -- Why don't you look Fern All*n in the eye and tell HER she was a "mindless victim"? Go for it, dude!

You can't leave. Bad things happen to those who leave. And don't try dying -- because if you die it's because you've sinned. That's right. Anyone remember what was said about Don Weirwille? Let me first say, this is not being said in disrespect to Don or his family. I did hear from a reliable source that when Don was diagnosed with lung cancer, which was terminal, that LCM taught at a WC phone hook-up that Don was sick because of alliances he had kept with unbelievers - his family! - who were no longer "standing with TWI". It was said that he had been told that he needed to sever those relationships and his weakness was that he did not. That's what killed him. (Sick, huh?!) *CALLING RADAR* *RADAR - CAN YOU CONFIRM THIS?* Anyhow... Things got pretty twisted in the mid-90's, as LCM went on rampages about getting rid of weakness and protecting the household. Everyone was a potential threat. Every weakness was magnified. I remember feeling like I could do nothing right anymore - I knew that wasn't the case but little mistakes - honest mistakes - were magnified 1000x's if you happened to be around an LCM wanna be... WC men who could really loose their tempers (it was called "spiritual anger" if you had a green name tag) were considered to be "tapped in" to the Present Truth... I remember helping my LC/RC move some furniture in his office. He wasn't a very big man, but was strong and in good health. (I'm built like a brick $hithouse...) So, when he asked me to move a full, two-draw cabinate, I didn't mind and started sliding it along. HE decided I wasn't moving fast enough and yanked on it from another direction. The cabinate knocked against his special - very special - desk and made a small dent. HE LOST IT - I thought he was going hit me - I really did. I apologized (I wish I hadn't now but I was really nervous because he was almost out of control with anger). My first husband would get physical when he was mad at me (or if he'd just had a bad day at work) and I recognized "the look" - I knew he was ....ed. I was ordered out of the room and could hear him slamming around in there... It was sad, now that I think about it... I mean, all that over a little nick in veneered wood? $hit happens... If anyone here was ever on staff or even sat thru an advanced class at a root local, they can attest that the rantings from leadership - especially LCM - about people who were sick, had died, etc. - could really mess with your mind. Anyone with any ailment had that need because they had weakness in their lives... it would make for a 90-min speech by some windbag with a microphone at lunchtime almost daily! There's an old thread - I beleive it was from Waydale - where Donna Martindale is quoted (and it's a real audio clip) - as saying the daughter of a long-standing believer DIED because she walked away from the ministry. It's heartless. Here's some more Way Math for those of you who were lucky enough to miss that crap: The Word is Perfect = The ministry is the Word = The ministry is Perfect (Therefore: the members should be perfect!) So, Oldies, HCW and some of you others who think us TWI-2-ers are making this **** up - there's lots of proof in the puddin'. JUST BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T THERE DOESN'T MEAN IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Anyone feeling enlightened now?

I'm home on maternity leave for another 5 weeks. As you can imagine, I'm busy with the new baby quite often which leaves our oldest child, Kristopher, to somewhat entertain himself... If you've ever spent a great amount of time with a 3 year old - who's almost 4 years old - you can probably imagine some of the things he comes up with - it's usually something that takes over the livingroom and takes an hour to clean up! (But 15 minutes to make!) So... We've been into painting, coloring, watching TV, puzzles, playing games, reading, going to the library, the museum, and McDonald's playland. We've gone for walks and to the playground (weather permitting). We've done a trip to Chuck E. Cheese (just shoot me!)... I'd appreciate any ideas y'all might have for new things we can try that don't cost a lot of money (free is GOOD!)- he needs some direction and I need some fresh ideas... THANKS!!! (Now we're off to the library - again!)