brideofjc

COME AND TAKE THEM! LOL LOL "You can have my gun when you pry it out of my cold dead fingers!"

2 Timothy 3:17 ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος Trans: So that the man of God might be perfected towards every good work; fully equipped. Translating this out, I would put a semicolon after work and leave out the comma that the UBS4 inserts (after "man" in the Greek text) but in the English it would come after "perfected". Reason being is this: the verse in Greek opens with a with a "hina" clause which is translated as "so that", then a word in the subjunctive mood that is then translated as "he might be" which then entails that this is the desired state, and then the final result. Per Mounce: "the subjunctive mood is used when a verb expresses a possibility, probability, exhortation, or axiomatic concept." All four could fit here because it would entail what type of ground it is being sown into, which would differ with each person. So to be fully equipped is the axiomatic concept which should happen if everything is in place within the individual who is submitted to the Holy Spirit's tutelage. In the Greek ἐξηρτισμένος is a "perfect passive participle" which simply means that this work is not being "worked out" by the individual, but it is being applied to the individual, namely by the Holy Spirit and with the "perfect" tense it denotes that the "action" was done in the past but the effects are ongoing. Just try and meditate on that for a while, it's pretty mind boggling in itself. As far as the word "all" in this verse, it is from the paradigm of "pas, pasa, pan" and in pronouncing it the first "A" should sound like "AHHH." In the singular, it is translated as "all"; if the substantive has the article it can be translated as "the whole, entire," in those cases where the substantive is anarthrous, it can be translated as "every". Which is why I translate it as "every" since the substantive "work" is singular and lacks the article. So to get the full flavor of v17 one must look back at the context of v16: KJV- "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS:" which is why v.17 opens with a "hina" clause, then includes the mood of possibility and ends with the desired state. The "good work" doesn't necessarily entail doing good to those around you, not that it would be excluded, but first the Word of God has to be (at least) in process of becoming grounded within the person first, then put into operation towards others. But the main thing is within ourselves receiving the DOCTRINE, and when we're wrong - being REPROVED and then CORRECTED, for the end of being INSTRUCTED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, so that we become "fully equipped."

It's not a matter of feeling better or not. Your name is attached to your quotes and my name is attached to mine....why would you not be able to follow it? I took great pains to make it clear by color coding it so that each one stood out. What manner is that? Responding to each statement and the rebuttal of such?

Thus says "THE MICK!"

Who's picking on Twinky?

I know Dooj! But seriously, Greek isn't supposed to have any "f-e-e-l-ings attached to it. Greek is to help you better define and understand the subtle nuances that the writers of the Holy Writ were attempting to define. It is after you understand those, then any and all feelings can be lifted up to the Creator.

If you want to find a counterfeit.....don't look for it! Study the TRUE AND PERFECT, namely THE LORD JESUS CHRIST! The counterfeit will be contrasted immediately.

Preachy???? ME??????

Greek is cold, hard and calculating.... and I like it like that!!! Then when the hard chair work is done.... Then comes the soft chair with all of the Feelings! Ahhhhh!

C--l--a--s--s! C--l--a--s--s! SHUTUP! Th - an-k You! Sister Mary Elephant???????

Tbone, that's what the Holy Spirit is for, He reiterates the still small voice of God into your spirit. Apparently, you must be in the evangelical camp and do not believe in a current living and breathing ability to be able to hear the voice of God. My condolences. You don't have to necessarily run to others to hear the voice of God, it should be resident within you already. I can't do anything about your "impressions" of others, I have mine too, as I'm sure we all do concerning other posters. As far as VP taking folks to the cleaners....financially? Because he stripped them clean of the Lord Jesus? Both? The money is replaceable and thank the wonderful Lord Jesus, He has more than made up to me the lost years of the canker worm. That's because we were so young and impressionable and had as of yet to realize that WE ALSO COULD HEAR FROM THE LORD! Therein lies the difference, I hope you perceive that.

Why thank you blessed brother, indeed! Here's another little of my life's background: when my daughter was little and first beginning to converse, even at that time, I refused to speak "down" to her with such things like, "Want some wa-wa?" I always said the correct word and (bragging) even at four years of age, she was using sentences that would be relegated to a third grader etc. I was always the proud Mama when it came to things like that. Now no one jump on any new hobbie horses, because I'm not saying that anyone here is a child and needs to repeat Mama. But even today, if I read a word that I don't understand, I still take the time to look it up in the dictionary. When I was little, even reading scholastic books that I ordered, if I encountered such things....that's how even at 18, my vocabulary ranked (when tested) at the proficiency level of a post graduate student in their second year. So do the same, is what I recommend, if you read something that I write that you don't understand. The internet makes it so much easier with Wikipedia, et. al.

What impressions would those be, Tbone?????? I left my stuffed shirt at the cleaners, btw! The Lord has this unique knack for knocking the stuffing out of someone, too.

Well, Rachel, they were not immune to their form of WayCorp-dom, if you will. It was a commonly held belief that the Jew that was born in the homeland was better than the Jew born during the Exilic period or thereafter because the family just simply decided to stay in the area that they had learned to call "home". This would be why they felt that they were being somewhat excluded. It doesn't mean they were starving or were not being included, but rather something on this order: "one for you - two for me - one more for you and three for me, etc." <_< The Diaspora Jews, were called Grecians because they had been Hellenized, which means that they spoke Greek which was the lingua franca of its day....they also spoke and understood Hebrew for the ceremonial aspects of worship, but their primary language was Greek. It was kind of like being the poor cousins. They were accepted but looked down upon because they didn't have the honor granted to them to be born in the homeland. They were not Gentiles at this time. The first was the house of Cornelius and that was later. The church at the first was very ethnocentric and had not as of yet entertained fully the command of the Lord Jesus. They were moving out, but they had not yet went to the Gentiles. Well, Oak, I should have read your post first, you pretty much covered it all.

I am righteous because of the Lord Jesus Christ....I am also a priest....soooooo I guess you should get at least a B+ for the quiz, and my bill is in the mail. Well, I remember vividly....when I first began attending a twig in the 70's the perceived love that everyone seemed to have for each other. I believe it was real, at least at that time. Some of the research, ok most of it, was bogus and it was plagiarized, but at the time I didn't know it and therefore, it spurred in me a hunger to learn more of the Word of God. God obviously saw my hunger and HE fed me. So yeah, they did have some good points, Jen-o. Yes, eventually, their false doctrines became poisonous or perhaps the cumulative deposits became more evident. Either way, when it was time to get out, I did. NO! Kind of hard to replace the root when you have been grafted into the branches, wouldn't you say? I do believe that the Jews were supposed to move into the new covenant because it was prophesied in Jeremiah, which they were aware of, but when the time came they didn't recognize that it was their time of visitation from the Lord and they lost out. However, I do believe that they will have another chance granted to them and of course, if any decide to become Christian right now, there is nothing to hinder them.

Everyone believes in something, George! Everyone! As to whether it is bogus or not, the end will declare itself, will it not? As to pontificating? My post was just a straight forward explanation of my experiences and my subsequent conclusions and determination to state my case. I try to be led by the Holy Spirit and let HIM determine the black and white, or the shades of gray. If this was your inspiration for the day....

Thank Tbone, I hope it comes from an open heart. But just to fill you in on some more of what I have witnessed and experienced: Folks don't show up expecially when one talks about deliverance....this has happened more than once. IMO, it's because they do not wish to think that they might have to deal directly with the devil in their lives and it is far easier to AVOID than to CONFRONT. If I don't think about it, it doesn't exist. In the psychological world, I believe it's call "stuffing." They show up for everything else, so one begins to draw conclusions as to the why. I don't know which end of the spectrum regarding the church you are on, i.e. evangelical or charismatic. I'm on the charismatic side, but was trained on the evangelical side and was raised RC and suffered through a cult. Hmmmm. I sometimes think that the Lord has allowed this so that I would have the full exposure to all of it. As far as sometimes coming off as a "know-it-all" or a "spiritual snob", let me also fill you in on some of the reactions I've experienced over the years. As long as I wasn't "educated" in biblical matters, all was fine and dandy. The day that the Lord moved upon me heavily, I was preparing to be a social worker. I had jumped through all of the hoops at the local university to gain admission to the BSW program and was attending my first class when the LORD let me taste what I was really getting into and at the same time HE was laying out the bait for me to go the bible college 55 miles away. Ahh, the Master Fisherman indeed. I marvel still. After gaining admission to the bible college and having to lose 24 credits (ouch) because of the difference between the secular and the biblical formats, it wasn't too long after that, maybe one and a half years in the initial training, perhaps two that I began to experience the "spirit of offense" in people in my church. I was still sitting on the receiving side. This understanding comes from looking back, not from when I was beginning to experience it; people despise being corrected, even if they are wrong. Where does this stem from? IMO, pride. Even though I showed them in the Scriptures, I soon found that people (some, not all) would rather remain with wrong thinking rather than change, even if it's offered with humility. It took a long time to realize this, and I've also suffered with it as well. Because I was in an evangelical bible college of which they were death on tongues and yet here I was....a charismatic WOMAN. For you see, my bible college was also death on women PREACHERS. If that isn't a hoot. I came to look at it as the LORD rubbing their noses in it. They HAD to give me an education because the laws in the USA demand it, especially when they are receiving federal funding, yet their biblical outlook hated it...while I also knew that they would never help me find a placement after graduation because of their doctrinal beliefs. After graduation, I briefly attended another church and because the more "educated" I became on biblical matters, sometimes the worse it got. This was not because I engaged in doctrinal debates with people, sometimes it was simply when they found out that I was BIBLICALLY TRAINED. This also included pastors, I might add. They immediately felt threatened by my very presence. As if I was going to stand up and denounce them or something as heretics. Why? I believe because it showed up the lack of spiritual hunger in those that became "offended". When I began attending this church, like I said, it had gotten to the point where I had TOLD the LORD that I wasn't going to tell anyone that I was BIBLE COLLEGE TRAINED. I was going to feign ignorance. And just like the LORD....HE wasn't going to let me either. Sure enough....a woman came up to me and called me by name. Total shock. I didn't remember her, but she had remembered me. We had taken one class together several years ago while still in college level. She proceeded to tell others in the church where I was graduated from and I could only look up at the LORD and say, "You're just not going to let me hide, are you?" When the LORD walked the earth, the pharisees exhibited a false humility and wouldn't make attestation that the ideas they proffered were their own, but would rather present them as such: "Rabbi so-and-so says...." and "Rabbi this-and-that says." When the LORD JESUS came on the scene, HE TAUGHT WITH AUTHORITY and said BUT I SAY TO YOU.... and immediately they were offended. I'm commanded to imitate my GOD. To make it shorter, I finally made peace with it and realized that if someone was going to be offended by my education, it was their problem, not mine. So if there be some that think I'm a know-it-all or a spiritual snob, then they need to take it before the LORD and ask HIM why they feel the way that they do. Perhaps the LORD is using my education to stir up in you all, to aim you once again at studying HIS WORD. Could I systematically destroy your positions on the WORD? Yes. That's what I've been trained to do, i.e. apologize the WORD OF GOD! I don't because I'm dealing with brothers and sisters. In seminary, it is a requirement to take classes on apologetics and one of the finals is to debate another student with the intent on destroying their position and proving them wrong. My assignment was to destroy my very own position, i.e. charismatic churches and take the opposing side. I got an "A" on that debate. So let me make this 100% clear, brother, I will in no way apologize for my education that the LORD HIMSELF has provided to me. You can view this as arrogance if you will, I call it "knowing what the LORD has called me to and fulfilling it." Blessings.

If it was just a "drill" and you came away with nothing...then you're right, "what good did all of that do?" After all of these years of being away from TWI, being able to distance myself and look objectively at some of (believe it or not) their good points as well as looking at their false doctrine and false approach to exegesis can honestly say it led me towards and spurred a hunger for the things of the LORD. While it may have been contrived in some sense of the word, there's nothing wrong in being a walking concordance and in no way should it be considered pharasaism unless by your own admission, your heart was waxed gross. When you say that you memorized "the law", which do you speak of: GOD'S LAW; Moses' law; or cult rules? Each of these are different. As far as the LORD wanting us to hear HIS VOICE, you're right in that HE doesn't need any assistance; but I believe HE WAITS upon us to SEEK HIM. A truism to be sure: Jesus has never been lost.

But then isn't that was Simon Magus did? This was his power over the people, that he had some kind of super-connection to the spirit realm? I see what you are saying, Jen-o, however, I said what I said because anyone who so desires to have a rich and powerful connection to the Lord Jesus Christ, can have it if they will only spend the time to cultivate their relationship with HIM. But this is the false acquisition of power and control over others that false teachers garner for themselves, and it works because of the ignorance of the Word of God in the churches. It is my sad opinion this is also representative of the "spirit of Nicolaitans and their deeds." In the Greek, the word Nico is from Nikay and Laitans stems from Laos, so both together equals: POWER OVER + PEOPLE. Would you agree? I am not dispensational as TWI was and consequently shoved this doctrine down the throats of spiritual babies. However, Jesus was speaking to Jewish people, since that is who HE came to so that Scriptures could be fulfilled. HIS disciples were Jewish, (except I believe Judas, his family was from way down south of Judea) and hence were acutely aware of the shame that it would bring if your name was blotted out and you were cast out of the tribe. This was understood to not only be of the moment but for eternity as well and would follow you forever. This would be on par with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in that it would not be forgiven in this life and neither in the next. While it was written to the Jews, one must realize that we have been grafted into the root stock of Israel, therefore, you and I are Jews now and hence the Gospels are also written to us.

You mentioned that I might be witnessing part of the Laodicean church is the USA, and I really just didn't want to go there, but it is an ever present possibility as we move ever closer to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This thread is about VPW, but how many people did he affect with his doctrine. One didn't necessarily had to have spent 20 years in TWI to be infected with it. One could have been a friend of a friend type thing, but very impressionable. He probably even incorporated aspects of Carnegie into it as well. Thinking that someone else has a better or stronger connection to the Lord than another is not the best way to express it; however, that connection is rather like a muscle that needs to be regularly exercised. I think Mt. 7 was meant to be horrifying - after all, it was written to the Jews and the concept of being cast out of the tribes and your name blotted out was just that indeed. It should be horrifying to us as well, seeing that we are grafted into the root stock of Israel.

I didn't really want to go there..... :( But since you did.... :( that is an ever present concern...you should have added Joel Olsteen(sp?) as well. You're absolutely right, unfortunately, that many churches have gone the way of wanting to blend into the world with their church building programs and their desire to be MEGA churches, rather than sitting at the feet of the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL. There is nothing wrong in an of itself with any church program, such as running an ophanage or getting involved with the homeless, but when the physical needs of those who are suffering become more important than the spiritual food that one can offer to people, it becomes just another type of state run program with endless bureaucratic red tape to enable you to think that you are somehow making a difference. The only thing that will count in the end is whether or not you KNEW the Lord Jesus Christ. NOW IF HE calls you to set up a program, THEN DO IT, but somehow I think that HIS EMPHASIS will be on the SPIRITUAL first rather than just the physical. For in the end these bodies are but dust and will return to that state from whence they were taken. But you're right Jen-0, I won't say all because that wouldn't be true, but many preach what will keep the money rolling in, rather than preach repentance or deliverance which will then enable the person to be set free, so that a true learning will begin to happen and a real relationship with the Lord. In two sermons that I delivered on spiritual deliverance, it was very obvious that we have an enemy....barely anyone there for the evening service and I remarked, "It is interesting that when I get ready to teach on this subject the numbers of people that fail to show up. But also remarkable are the ones who do come to church to hear this topic." Today, many church goers probably don't even know what a real relationship with the Lord is like and sad to say, they just might hear the words in Mt. 7. I hope not. Much prayer is needed and I hope you make that a top priority in your life.

I agree with you in that it should be the means to an end, i.e. walking in the Spirit and with power, and not just the acquisition of knowledge. What difference? We see it in the book of James: what good is it if I have the necessary things to help someone but only tell them, "Be warm and filled" etc. while they are still hungry and cold? We were spiritual babies in TWI and so were impressed with "knowledge," or an "implied knowledge." But knowledge is not true knowledge if it doesn't penetrate the heart. But if people are sitting in churches year after year without imbibing the spiritual food to the end that growth occurs....does it make the server only a vain babbler? Hmmmm...maybe this could be another aspect that can be applied to our "now" of what Paul meant in Corinthians? Albeit, it remains with speaking in tongues, but the application could be implied. Food for thought