brideofjc

THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE: When one receives the Word of God not as the word of men but as it is in truth ,the Word of God it puts forth power it opperates, produces effect, in who? ...... those that don't believe? NO, in those that believe. Believing fulfills the condition. If it worked automatically then it would contradict the free will that God gave us. Those that believe what God's word says get the effect produced. It is not the BELIEVING that is effectually working....Jesus said it best when he said in Matthew 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? and why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin. Rather contradictory isn't it?

They can be translated as "and, but", but that is only a "connective" and wouldn't make much sense. Put them in when you read it and you will see for yourself. It doesn't matter how many words one can squeeze out of "kai", but the question remains, "Does it fit?"

White Dove...YOUR example works but 1 Thess 2.13 does not.... WHAT is EFFECTUALLY WORKING? It is the WORD OF GOD that is EFFECTUALLY WORKING. So it should be obvious it isn't WORKING for the sinner, else s/he would now be a saint. <_< Well, how RUDE! That's really infantile! That's despicable! :blink:

Waysider, Wisdom is simply wisdom....and it works for saint and sinner alike. For example, changing the oil in your car every 3k miles so that you don't seize up the engine.

But the key word in this verse should have the emphasis placed on the word "believe"...which is the real crux of the verse. In the Greek language there are words that can have more than one meaning and the context determines how you will translate the word. We have these occurrences too, such as: 1. Give me light (daytime) 2. Give me a light one (weight) 3. Give me a light (flame) 4. Give me a light (lamp) The Greek word for "believe" is πιστεύουσιν which can be translated as a present active participle, dative plural masculine OR present active indicative, third plural. Here would be the renderings: 1 Thess 2.13 but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. KJV but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually works also in THEM that believe. (Pres. Act. Ind. 3rd pl.) but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually works also FOR THEM THEM THAT ARE BELIEVING or TO THEM THAT ARE BELIEVING (Pres. Act. Part. Dat. Masc. Pl.) Guess where the KJV translators came down? Yup! Present active indicative, 3rd plural, which is where I would also come down in my choices during the translational process. If you try to translate as a Pres. Act. Participle which would give it the verbal force that is needed to maintain TWI theology, just look at how you must translate by using the "helping" words of "for" and "to"? The result is an awkward translation....oh you can force it this way....but it still remains FORCED. Rather, if you let it translate itself naturally, it then is rendered as "WHICH EFFECTUALLY WORKS ALSO IN THEM (that belong in the body of Christ, and therefore ARE BELIEVERS i.e. have faith in Christ). TWI theology.....CRASH AND BURN, BABY!

"Also" is there....it is the Greek word "kai" and it could either be a cumulative particle which would allow "also, too"; but to make VPW theologies fit inside the glove, you would have to translate it as an emphatic which would render it as "the word of God, which effectually worketh, INDEED, in you that believe." But that doesn't sound right to force it in that direction. That would be like saying "wow, I didn't know it would work for believers too!" Too goofballey, if you know what I mean. To translate it as an ascensive is even worse, you would come up with "worketh EVEN in you that believe." Like this must be the absolute exception to the rule...doncha know?

And sometimes I allowed my children to experience the consequences of their actions. Perhaps God does the same, Oak.

And yet even earthly fathers sometimes lose their children to auto accidents, drugs, alcohol, prison, fires, sickness, disease, natural catastrophes, etc. etc. I could have my child walking right next to me and the child still catch their foot on something and fall down, hurting their foot and/or leg. Does this make me an awful parent?

OM...It was the Lord Jesus who told Peter how he would die and therefore glorify God. Paul was beheaded....with all of that revelation that he received directly from the Lord Jesus and you would contend that he lacked faith??? Was God just sitting up there on HIS throne with HIS arms crossed saying, "My, oh my, if only they would just show a little more faith and I would just reach right down there and snatch them from the jaws of death! Tsk! Tsk! Whatever will I do?" VP was just plain wrong. The Lord Jesus clearly states that we must take up our cross and follow HIM and that means that we are to enter into the FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS. Most christians like to skip right over that verse....and if they just can't get around it, they read about....fellowship....yeah, yeah, I can dig it....but SUFFERING...? Nope, I'm ONE SPOILED KID! THAT'S ME!

I would refer to you Foxx's book of Martyrs - filled with accounts of people who would not back down from their statements of faith in the Lord Jesus and were willing rather to die as a martyr rather than be coerced into giving up their faith. Just because it doesn't make sense to you does not negate the truth. If God was not being glorified, then why was the Lord Jesus LOOKING on the whole scene even as Stephen looked up into heaven and saw his Lord standing there? Then why are the Christians in Sudan being martyred for their faith and what about China? The list goes on and on....all of them lack faith....? I think not!

But then OM, you have to explain why great prophets were also crucified, stoned, sawn asunder, sewn into animal skins, quartered, tortured, beheaded ad nauseum? They ALL lacked faith during those moments, but all of their lives had a clear and strong ability to HEAR from the Lord and walk in HIS directions? Not likely, OM. Perhaps some would fall into that category. I personally believe the Lord God actually chooses people to die the martyr's death for HIS glory. And for those that are going to gag on this, too bad...the Lord God's thoughts and ways are far higher than ours, since we only see such a small slice of life, while God sees all from the end back to the beginning and reverse.

Hey Bramble, You need to re-read the post that you got my words from. I'm commenting on the dictionary entries, not people per se. If you reading the darker blue, those words are from Oakspear.

Unless you were a Jewish person caught up in the Diaspora and transported to a Hellenized country and adopted their language and other customs minus the polytheistic tendencies.

But the Lord Jesus did instruct to start at Jerusalem and there doesn't appear to have been a time frame as to when they were to move out. If there was it was not recorded and so we will never know. Whether they were right on time or late, the Lord Jesus doesn't inhabit time as we know it, and the fact remains if we are too slow....the Lord will raise up a tension in our lives until we deal with the situation.

According to the Jews, they are "Goyim" Oy Vey!

They wouldn't have Oak....These were the daily food handouts that were going on....the fellowships amongst the Christians....you can make a sure bet they did not include pagans, Hellenists or otherwise, at least not in these....these were the love feasts. I opened up two windows, still couldn't get the actual boxes to reprint.... Never mind, I now know what you're doing....when you reply to multiple posters, SOMETIMES this board puts them within the same post....but the only time I've ever seen that is when you post immediately after each other....if you wait this board puts it into two posts. This is now my edit: just like it did here.... The only ONE that will fully equip you to handle God's Word is the Holy Spirit.

OOOOHHHHHH! The Veepster's PRIVATE INTERPRETATION! Just exactly HOW does your wife stand it????

"Using the algebra of sets, this article contains a basic introduction to sets, Boolean operations, Venn diagrams, truth tables, and Boolean applications." You still don't get it Waysider? It's CIRCULAR thinking!!!

C'mon Waysider, you didn't scroll down the entire page...... "The following example involves two sets, A and B, represented here as coloured circles." Phew! i'm sure glad you said that!

Here WordWolf....I posted this on 2 Timothy 3:17

Hey WTH, But ἰδιῶται is............

I had a large response to Jen's post, but it got lost in cyber space....I won't retype it.

The only reason that I changed the color, was to offset the multiple posts that were within the post. When you reply to the original post, this board has a box that the quote is placed within, but if you reply to a post that contains these boxes, the boxes are deleted and if you do not transfer the words to the second reply, then the reader will not know what you are resonding to et al. That is why I took the time to not only color code it, but to write in "Jen writes....or....BOJC writes....." This is now my edit: As you can see, Oakspear....the box above does not contain the boxes that you responded to in Jen's posts. This is what I mean and so if you read the box above, the average reader will not fully understand what you are replying to because this board has deleted them.