rascal

Hmmm and that mitigates what we were taught in twi how? Sure we searched the scriptures..... Scriptures were used to back up every single teaching I mentioned shrug. I though that was what gave twi leaders the authority. It never occured to me to doubt the authenticity or motives of the men whom claimed to be ministers for God...shrug Chalk it up to being young, gullible, and stupid. I suppose in their subtlety lies the success of false prophets, the wolves in sheep`s clothing.

Amen Lindy. If you factor in that parents were told that the children were a direct reflection of their spirituality. That if their children misbehaved in some manner, the parents themselves and most particularly the father were branded as spiritually weak in some area. An unruly kid could destroy any respect or credibility one might have. An unruly child could forever brand you as *spiritually suspicious* Parents of unruly children could be declared posessed and thrown out of the ministry, be seperated from God`s ability to protect them. Parents were even told that the whole family could die if they left the protection of the house hold. That was the reason that parents, as unwilling as they were felt st times compelled to allow/inflict the abuse. It wasn`t because they liked it, but because it was presented as the only alternative to death and destruction not only for the child themselves but the entire families. That is why you hear of such extreme circumstances of parents throwing teens out on the streets.

I think in hind sight that this was the foundational teaching that the others false teachings giving the bullies power were built upon. God can only speak to you through your leader, God can only speak to the wife through the husband after marriage....(What the crap was THAT all about?? like some kind of switch is thrown and no more spiritual connection??) God can only work for the kids through the parents/father head of the household. The teachings were the weapons held to our heads, the scriptures, the ammunition in the weapons, to force people to do/ ignore/endure unconscionable treatment. To this day it is difficult to hear scripture quoted without my hackles raising up in suspicion.

This doctrine was in place as early as 1979. Our limb leader Jo-- S---- at our first wow meeting taught this in relation to peter. He pointed out how Peter listened to his leader and obeyed, and BECAUSE he obeyed, he got to walk on water. If we wanted a miracle in our lives, if WE wanted to walk on water, we must be carefull to obey immediately in order to recieve that blessing. He then pointed out that when Peter looked around at the wind and waves...the *circumstances* started allowing his 5 senses to influence him.... he sank. We therefor must obey our leaders, ignoring what ever our five senses tell us, what ever common sense might dictate and just trust our leaders like Peter did. And besides, even IF per chance our leader was wrong, why God would HAVE to honor our hearts and commitment anyway.

I shouldn`t have said *we* allowed.... There were many who were couragious enough to stand up for yourselves and your families against leadership. Some of you already knew God intimately enough to know that he would never ever require that of us. Some of you behaved with honor in spite of what we were taught. I admire all of you who stood up for principle, consequences be damned.

I started a new topic so as to not derail this important one.

This teaching was always invariable followed by the *suggestion is tantamount to an order* and *Obey even if it is wrong God will honor your obedience and make it all turn out all right anyway* This teaching got brought up in the child abuse thread as one of the reasons that parents were so uncharacteristically harsh with children. People beat their kids, they let others at rome city beat, punch, demean their children. Those kids are grown up now and are finally able to tell their stories. I think that this single doctrine was THE most responsible for opening the doors for abuse and evil that flourished in twi. We ignored every instinct, every rule of common sense and did that which was completely contrary to our own will and well being, ignoring the needs of our families in our earnest desire to be obedient to God :( When faced with these delemas, we would submit tearfully, brokenly to the mandate no matter how insane, or what the cost to us personally, no matter what common sense said to the contrary..... because we had been taught that this was what God almighty required of us. It was stuff that no person on this planet could have MADE us do....but we allowed it because we were taught that there was no other choice or option if we loved God and wanted his blessing and protectection to continue in our lives. Parents reported being told by Mi-cha- F--t to beat their kids with a 2x4 and if that didn`t work to leave them in the woods for God`s sake. Women, even married couples related accounts of being forced to abort children at leadership`s *suggestion* Women reported being forced into sexual servitude with this line of reasoning. People sold their homes, People ignored ailing/dying family members and friends, people threw their teenaged children out on the streets for minor infractions. People m&a`d life long friends and family members. Not only were we forced to do that which we felt was wrong within the very fiber of our being.... I believe that we were taught to tune out the very voice of God. This line of reasoning also opened the doors for bullies to operate with impunity. They were allowed to be abusive and vile and were able to justify it all....they were able to require their victims recieve the most outragious of abuse mutely without protest because the bully had a title with the authority of the God of the heavens and universe to back them up. We endured things that any NORMAL person would have immediatly pressed charges and had people imprisoned for, without protest. We sat mutely while being screamed at, physically struck, our children mistreated, our minds and bodies violated. It was a sick evil doctrine that conditioned people to submit to atrocities.

This is off topic but the *It is impossible to obey God without first obeying leadership* and a *suggestion was tantamount to an order* were also the lines used to hound women into unwanted abortions as well. It was a cruel lie to manipulate people into doing that which went against their nature. Whether beating children, or aborting them. It also gave bullies full reign to inflict their cruel abuse on all without having to face any consequences for their inexcusable behavior. I think that this was one of the most visciously evil of doctrines that opened the door to exploitation on so many many levels.

That is chilling WG. Truly horribly chilling to have a minister, a spiritual advisor requiring this of parents. Thank God you didn`t listen. I wonder how many did. Poor kiddoes. You know, Howard, I agree, VPW perhaps never taught publicly to beat your children. He was however heard repeatedly to recomend the *Hunt close* book for training children. He said that is you could train a dog....yadda yadda...made great sense to me at the time, but then I wasn`t a parent. I have read a record where VP was seen visciously beating one of his dogs...the dog was cowering and crying pitiously, and yet the beating continued.... He was quoted to have said something along the lines again that the dog would never disobey again..... He advocated training the kids like dogs...it isn`t hard to understand why with examples such as those ...thar punishment was to be meted out untill the kiddo was whimpering and cowering but obedient. I think that it is all just plain sick now.

So glad that you finally told one of your stories Paw! You sure kept your grandma busy that summer.

Guys, I am so sorry. We didn`t know. I had no idea what was happening to you guys. Being 17 when I became involved, I always envied you guys getting to enter the corpes with your parents. I once made the foolish mistake of pointing out to a corps kid how very fortunate he was to be raised in the word by his corpes -parent. Lord, he looked at me like I was from mars, I understand why now. Please believe that most of us just didn`t know what you poor guys endured. I humbly apologise for supporting and promoting an organization that treated you poor kiddoes so visciously.

Trust and Obey, that is beautiful.

I understand that those of the flesh....those whom do the things listed in galations.....many things that our leaders habitually indulged in....that it states that they will have NO inheritance in the kingdome of God...period. Yet the folks who do these things still call themselves christian. I think maybe we just don`t really understand *born again* and *fruit of the spirit* Maybe you can be born again and still be of the flesh and have no inheritance in the kingdom of God... Shoot, vpw and lcm and many of twi`s leaders won`t if what the scriptures say is true in galatians....shrug. I don`t know. I just know that I have met genuine christian whom have been changed dramatically on the inside when born again....and that they don`t have issues with drugs or rape or cruelty or drunkeness........those things hold any appeal for these folks...and yet twi leaders consistantly are *challenged* in these areas. I have to wonder if twi`s theories and formulas might be flawed concerning the new birth and what it takes to be a genuine Christian, rather than one who just wears the lable that marches boldly up to Jesus on judgement day and is told to *depart for I knew you not*

YES Bramble, you are absolutely correct. It should be a choice. I absolutely think that it is insane to force people to do it. That is part of what made Andrea Yates go nuts...continual pregnancies because they believed that it was biblical. It isn`t an easy road, but the rewards are wonderfull. But always always it shoyuld be a choice. Small families have their outstanding benefits as well. there are pros and cons with each situation. I wonder what is considered a *big* family. Three? four? What is the cut off point. I try to figure out which kid of mine that I wouldn`t want. I was schedueled after # 4 to have my tubes tied, my spouse talked me out of it the morning of surgery. It would have been the *responsible* thing to do. However, the three children that I had after that have been a joy, one of whom saved my life because in my post natal care, cancer was discovered. Had I not been going to the doc for the baby, by the time it would have been discovered, it would have been to late. Sometimes what looks like the responsible or right thing isn`t always the best thing. Belle, thank you for your generous compliments about my family.... You would make a wonderfull Mom...Rarely does anybody start out with a lot of patience or parenting skills, it is something you develope along the way...kind of like on the job training.

Well, speaking as the mother of a large family of children, I am at a loss as to understand what they are being denied. We believed the scripture that said that they were a blessing, that a quiver full was good. Yeah sure, when they were young there wasn`t enough money for the elaborate chuckie cheese birthday parties, but we found other meaningfull ways to celebrate. No they couldn`t all have ballet lessons, but the could and did participate on ball teams and theatre. For the most part they adore each other, and are responsible, kind individuals. They learned at a very early age to think outside of their own selvs and consider the needs of others. My nieces and nephews on the other hand who DID have every advantage from being raised as a single child or with one sybling with all of the advantages...they had EVERYTHING money could buy....but can be the most creepy, disrespectfull little snot you would ever want to meet. One was already in trouble with the law before she was 13 for theft and stealing a car. Mine have all of the latest toys and gadjets, but not because we can afford to buy them, but because each of them works very hard to earn the money that they save to get what they want. They have motor cycles, go carts, a jet ski, horses, exotic pets. I don`t think that you can claim that a child from a large family is at any more of a dissadvantage than one from a small one... that one way is any better than the other. I have found that each has it`s own unique advantages and draw backs.....either way I don`t think that there is a right or wrong.

Belle, I don`t know if *born again* and *of the spirit* are synonymous (sp?) I just know that we were instructed that *by their fruits ye shall know them* I have met genuine Christians in and out of twi as well as folks that claim to be but were more evil than the most rqank of unbelievers.... I have met people who`s fruit in their lives would indicate that they were *of the spirit* though they eshew the name of Christian.... I think if it were as cut and dry as stating a belief or wearing a lable, or something that was achieved by completeing a certain set of actions... Jesus wouldn`t have told us that we needed to examine a person`s fruit in order to recognise one another...shrug Jesus said that there were going to be a lot of people that claimed to have *known* him...and that he will tell them to *depart for I knew you not* I think that there might be more to it than the recitation of a few verses or the statement of a particular belief system...shrug

Oh YEAH, and Bow, my deepest apologies I DID find little Zoretas karate picture. It was sandwitched in between the yoda pictures! lol thanks So much, I thoroughly enjoyed looking at the pictures after the confusian all died down. That picture of the family will be perfect for Christmas for the extended family. Sure love all of you guys.

Well, I guess that you know that it is *real* by examining the fruit in one`s life. That was how Jesus said that we would know one another...shrug ... not by the lables that we slap on ourselves or the things that we confess out of out mouths.

Wow, I`d better check my meanings better, I thought it meant he talked grumbly and mean sounding lol....

Awww thank you guys, Thank you SO much...what awsome sentiments, thank you, thank you for the kind comments about my family jard, what an AWSOME picture belle! Gosh you guys are wonderfull, and didn`t I get a special suprise to enjoy our celebration?? I reflect back on that day 20 years ago, I think how Mark and I were two independant souls who decided that together, we could best serve God. That we were able to bring out the best in each other in our earnest desire to be the best doulos. We never dreamed that our lives wouldn`t be spent in service to God in support of the ministry at any level. I remember the first year that Mark filled out our corpes assignment request card, he put *anytown usa* on all three blanks. I was just in aw of idea of a life time of serving with a man who was willing to be wherever God needed us. Lol, who would have believed what God had in mind around the corner? I wonder....so here we are ...20 years later and look back over the changes.. my what a strange journey....lol WW, actually our anniversary is on the 21 also. Long story, but our lc got called out of town just before the wedding that was schedualed. He had to marry us legally in a small private ceremony with our wedding party as witness on the 19th, and on the 21, we had the ceremony with akll of the out of town guests and in the church with a corpes buddy who wasn`t licensed in our county, officiating at that one. The LC said both were our wedding days, because both had been preformed by men of God...lol I guess getting married twice *established* it....lol maybe that is why we are still together. SO happy anniversary to you as well ww, I will lift a toast to you on tuesday when we celebrate again...lol

Awww what awsomely cool folks you all are. Bow, I thank you for bringing such awsome folks to visit my humble home. I look around and see all of the yard work that needs to be done, the dirt swept into a pile that didn`t get picked up, the dirty windows...etc. I pray that people don`t sit in the section of the couch that is broken....lol You see the love and the kids and the food....the good things....in my rambunctious brood you see great kids, in my garrulous spouse, you see a prince...lol you get him... I have to laugh at your description of people filing in from every concievable entrance when lunch was served. Kind of reminds me when the kids go out to feed the cats and call kitty kitty...there are felines flying in from all directions under the house out of the trees out of the barn under the vehicles, seems like a hundred, (really only a dozen or so) sometimes followed by the dogs... Ron what a pleasure to meet you and Andrew live after all of these years...you are every bit the gentleman, the quiet, funny man that I would have expected from the other side of the screen. I would like to see you again in the spring when Andrew could ride. I didn`t feel like I got to speak very much to you, or even get a good look at the pictures of your beautifull mountain home. Hopefully that can be remedied in the future. I cannot thank Dot and her friend enough for making the extra effort to add several extra hours on to her already long trip. What an awsome treat...I wanted to sit down and listen with all of my attention as she filled in pieces of the puzzle. Your friend Dot, fit right in with all of these nutty greasespotters...we will have to make her an honorary grease spot ...eh? My only dissapointment was that there were So many people and so little time to visit...lol. I needed a week to sit down with each of you. In addition to it being our anniversary, it was my mothers birthday, so had invited her up before knowing what a treat you guys had in store. I was mortified when she started barking at me no different than when I was a child...sigh It was ok though, because like a child...hee hee I muttered rebelious little insults under my breath as I slunk into the house tee heeing with dot over my mothers embarassing behavior. Dott was so understanding ...lol I am glad that you all enjoyed the food, all I could do was worry because the potatoes and biscuts were cold. I think the hot gravey and good coffee (marks contribution) made it edible anyway. I loved how the kids all dissapeared as soon as they arrived, Annie and Andrew each seemed to blend right in. I love it when I see it so hard to get them away when time to leave...it makes me feel like they had a good time anyway. What an unbelievably special little dog that sarah is...gosh, she crawled into my lap and right into my heart, what an awsomely sweet little soul. She is so very special, I had a difficult time letting Bow have her back...sigh That little sweetie is something special. I didn`t know that she had not eaten that morning...and I had a plate of food right under her nose (she was sitting beside me) and she never begged, she only gratefully accepted tidbits when I offered them (which was as much as I thought I could get away with without making her sick for the trip lol) Thank you Dot for rescuing her. Thank you Bow for the epic journey you made to give her a stable loving home. She in her way was as special to meet as the humans that came to visit. I have already forgotten what name you gave the little brindle dog while you were here.. I promise to stop calling him *bu tt ugly*...really, I didn`t think that it bothered him, but you really are right, it isn`t very nice. I think that I just do it so that I don`t get so attatched. It doesn`t sound very nice when the kids are yelling his name...I have to wonder what the neighbors think. I was so delighted that Rosey behaved herself. There was something about you guys that she really liked. She has been known to be violent and disruptive (as the holes in my woodwork and furniture give mute testament to) when people have come that she DIDN`T like. I thought of another *rosey* story if you will bear with me here...lol When she lived with her former owners, a tornado struck....they all had to go down in the basement they took her with them ...she was screaming in terror...it is ear piercing when she gets going.....anyway, the teenaged boy who was carrying her cage.... was telling her to shut UP as the family was going back upstairs when the storm had passed..... The guy finally shouted above the din...*Rosey if you don`t knock it off ..I am going to put you back down in the basement*.... She ceased immediatly and looked fearfully up at him and said in a frightened quiet tone clear as anything... *NO ...rosey scared* I swear the bird knows the context of words. Anyway thank you for bringing the party to me when I couldn`t get away, what a joy.... I think we oughtta nominate Bow to be the official greasespot diplomant or ambassador, something, the way she and annie travel and visit greasepotters bringing them together from all parts of the country...lol Anyway thank you all for making the effort to visit, What an awsome awsome treat.

Waterbuffalo, I agree.....Jesus also said for us to look for specific fruit to recognise one another as well. That makes more sense to me than believing whatever lable someone has slapped upon themselves.

Potato, I was there....honest. I had to get to the point where I had to make the decision if I even BELIEVED there was a God after the fiasco of depending on him to operate as I had been taught... After I made that decision, I told (ok shouted while brandishing the middle finger) him something to the effect that EVERYTHING that I had ever been taught about him was a lie....(yeah I know but I was having a temper tantrum) and that IF he really was there...just to stay the eff away from me... It was really wierd, almost audible, like a warm chuckle, and the words or impression that NOW that THAT was settled, that I really didn`t know anything....we could start back at square one. It all boiled down to the decision to believe that YES there was a God and based on that supposition.... I COULD manage the first two great comandments...*love God and Love my neighbor* It was a start and he has been patiently building on that new rock solid foundation laid after my other *house* built on the sand came crashing down.. Be patient with yourself and God, he really IS faithfull to restore what the locusts have destroyed.

Thanks Bell, I don`t mean what I said in a mean, judgemental, or critical way either. We are free to chose whom we enjoy fellowshipping with period. I just think that in our arrogance, we might miss what is of value offered by different Christians who practice differently and focus on other aspects of our spiritual walk. It is a legacy of our participation in twi. It is also our loss.

I often wonder if that isn`t why some folks (not all) drift into particular splinter groups....a continuing need to still feel special and elite...like twi believers are some how a cut above your average Christian. I talk to a suprising number of ex way people even years after leaving that are still too arrogant to go to a church or fellowship with other brands of Christians.