rascal

Selective teachings to push the agends...YES!!! There was the basic format which taught scriotures, taught respect for the scriptures...once that was established...the *wierd* teachings were pulled into play. All the women of the kingdom... All parts of the body equal.... Mogs must be served in order for them to serve the body... Children are disposable.... Obedience is mandatory no matter how insane your leader sounds.... Yeah the teachings were inocuous at first...but they paved the way for the insane ones.

I told my spouse....*as similar as all of theses cults are, for goodness sakes, we should have joined a more interesting one*....lol The thing that struck me was that all of the groups changed the name of things. They would assigne some spiritual reason for what was being demanded. Members were to eshew family contact because of the families lack of ability to understand. The family members might try to kidnap them or talk them out of the *truth* It was the same arguments/doctrine used on us, that caused so many to burn their bridges. So much pain for the family members who weren`t permitted in the lives of the children, grandchildren brothers and sisters ...etc. The the verses them mentality was universal as well. We have to keep things secret because if the government knew, they would interfere.

Hmm, I guess that I didn`t understand that posting in a way that places twi in a positive light....was a pre requisit to expressing opinions here...shrug No wonder I am such an irritant... :blink: As a recap, So far nobody has denied that this teaching was widely taught in twi. I don`t think that anybody has denied that this particular teaching was used to force people into actions contrary to that which they desired. Kit Sober made a brilliant observation about *card board* Chrisitians in the doctrinal section. I will ask her permission to post it up here. She has a great point about why some of the folks in twi might have remained unselfish and untarnished by doctrine, while others used twi doctrine as a license to sin. She talked about knowledge of scripture without the movement of Holy Spirit in ones life. It was a brilliant observation imo....

Kit THAT was well said. Oh my goodness, that puts everything into a perspective that I can understand. The card board thing.... I have been struggling to understand why the scriptures learned delivered some, yet didn`t help others....whew...lights, bells and whistles going off here for me. Thank you Kit, I think that was the final piece of the puzzle.

I thought that there was potato. George, that is a good point, we want to belong, we want to be right. Anybody with Charisma that stands up and says *I know the way*!! seems irrisistable. What struck me was how similar all of the techniques to control were.

Whether it be spin or truth, Whether it be bullying or not all depends on ones point of view I guess, or whether you personally are consistantly on the recieving end of it....shrug There seems to be nothing I can say that doesn`t offend. My experiences, and my view point are still valid, even if it offensive from your perspective. Shoot, start your own thread with your perspective and experiences, the things that you want to talk about instead of continually trying to find fault and discredit me personally rather than addressing the thought presented. I will simply try to present my thoughts without the distraction of having to defend myself in the future.

A Bully always has a good sounding motive for harassment....shrug, that will never make it right or appropriate. Whatever lable you apply to your motives, it doesn`t change the fact that you seem to like to stalk and bully because my perspective and experience differed from your own. Clearly I offend you, my experiences in twi offend you, my perspective on the treatment people recieved in twi offends you. Call me a liar, Call me a woosey for not standing up, Call me unspiritual, whatever. I am putting you on ignore so rant away.

I was watching a show about ufo cults yesterday, and of the several profiled, was struck by how eerily similar their teachings were to ours. Complete unquestioning obediance was required of anybody who wanted to be considered spiritual. Anything less than total compliance wirth any edict was viewed as weakness. Weakness was not tolerated any where near the leaders... Anybody remember folks being required to leave a radius of so many hundred miles around hq? The buffer zone where no unspiritual were allowed to dwell? The truly committed in one group even had themselves castrated in order to avoid the distractions of this worldly body. When the leaders prophesies failed to come to pass, it was always viewed as a failure of the people on some level. Anybody remember the two communist take overs in 76 / 79 and y2k in 00? They separated themselves from their families in order to avoid being distracted and contaminated. When one leader`s wife fell ill with cancer, she was admitted under an assumed name in a hospital to die (her daughter who lived only two hours away wasn`t even told) She died alone in obscurity so that the followers wouldn`t know that her doctrine or belief had failed. Eventually they came up with some silly explanation for the followers why it was ok. Sounds like wierwille eh? The leadership finally told everyone that he chose to die because nobody would ask how best to run the ministry or some such nonsense. I saw a show a few months ago on cults in general where some others were profiled, the Christian cults all followed the same formula....only the terms and names of dieties had really been changed. All....including the ufo cults had scriptural back up for what they believed. All had charismatic leaders who allowed no disagreement..... All had programs for the truly committed.... All had excuses when their prophesies or doctrine failed... Funnily enough, the Chrisitian cults were the most flagrant in their drug and alcohol abuse as well as loose sexual practices....shrug go figure. The formula was so eerily similar in all of the groups, only the terms were changed. The destructive behaviors were consistant in most of them, the language that required the obediance only veried slightly

The idea that we should have made the word our own, goes without saying.... But to use this to assigne blame to the folks who got hurt instead of being properly scandalized because this was a common ministry wide doctrine ...ie obedience to leadership =obediance to God.... is suprising to me. I/we who bought in to this teaching are more offensive and worthey of contempt and critisism than the leaders who actually granted themselves authority and misused scriptures to treat trusting people with cruelty is really suprising. That it is ok to treat people badly because they were to stupid or foolish or cowardly to stand up seem like harshness is still condoned. I just don`t believe that a genuine Christian or group behaves this way.

You have a very good point about the guys who behaved this way being abusers any where. The thing is though, that they were succored, encouraged and promoted in twi...shrug I guess I would expect that if twi were a Godly place with Godly doctrines, these guys would have been delivered, or at the very least.....held to a Christian standard. Instead they were given positions of authority over people. They were able to inflict cruelty and abuse on people, and with the authority granted in this teaching.....able to intimidate/coerce/force people not only to accept their abuse, but in cases even inflict it on others...shrug The fruit of twi is putrid....

Folks, thanks for understanding.

Gosh this is frustrating. Dove, this isn`t about having sex, or regrets, or how I should have been smarter, or more spiritual, or had better morals, or been more whatever, or about whatever was wrong with me that I didn`t know any better. It is about the ministers in twi claiming to speak for God, ministers that we trusted with our spiritual lives..... using the lies in these teachings as their authority and weapon of choice in the coersion or manipulation of people into going against their own will and well being....in many cases doing great evil. It was ugly, and it was wrong. I do not believe that a genuine minister would treat a member(s) of his flock this way, much less a brother in Christ to his brother or sister. I think that these teachings were what allowed the evil to operate unabated for so long.

I remember that he said it at wow training in 79. Funnily enough, I don`t remember LCM saying it at wow training in 85...shrug I never dreamed that it needed to be said to a group of missionaries for heavens sakes.

The topic was that this was what was taught in twi and was used specifically as the means to force people into doing things that they didn`t want to do, things that were contrary to their natures. The acts in and of themselves may or may not have been right or wrong for the particular person or situation at the time. What WAS tragically wrong was that it was presented as GOD`S requirement and not a leaders suggestion or idea. If it had been presented as a leader or a man`s recomendation, we would have then been free to consider and make our decisions. But these teachings in particular declared them commandments of God...one had only two choices...Obey God, or face spiritual/physical death as a result of no longer being in the center of his will. If you didn`t go wow or corpes or jump in whatever direction struck a leaders fancy, you were outside of God`s will... If you did go against your better judgement and attempt the program and failed, you were a loser and a liar ... your heart was never right..... I cannot begin to describe the heart break and horror of being forced to do something that you were adamantly against, something that every fiber of your being rebelled against and felt was wrong......but being forced to make the choice between what you felt was right and what somebody said God required.... It has been over 20 years, but the stomach sickening, heavy hearted, soul deadening feeling can still be felt if I focus on particular instances ....some more difficult than others :( just as intensely today as on the very days that I was forced to decide between what I believed was right and God`s will. It just didn`t feel like I had any choices when these doctrines were wielded as the authority to enforce the leaders desires..

I think that is the most tragic cost of all Belle. Not only have their perceptions of love of family been warped, but their ability to trust of understand the love of God. I fail to see anything even remotely Godly about this.

Wow, humbling to see it in print. I think that we (those who suffered due to these doctrines) are living illustrations of the validity of these verses. Wow Do we ever get any smarter as Christians? I mean as a group judging by those scriptures you quoted Dot, we seem to commit the same mistakes, fall for the same traps generation after generation...sigh 2000 plus years and we are still being crippled be the same tricks.

Dot, It is sometimes very difficult to communicate effectively here. We are all passionate about our pov`s. You appreciate the good in folks and can see the merit of different situations. Thanks for the clarity and balance that you try to provide.

Agreed Sunesis. Was it him or LCM in the corpes who were reported to have taught that in an invasion/end of the world situation... That if it came down to you or your children dying, to sacrafice them because you held the word and the word must live on. You could always make more kids later...but somebody had to be alive to teach the word.... That to me is an indication of the lack of value placed on kiddoes.... (read sick) I know that kids were viewed as a hinderance to moving the word. They were also conduits for allowing devel spirits into a family if not carefully monitered.

Calm down John, I never ever claimed to speak for everyone, honest I didn`t, please read my post. What I said was, that these teachings were what were used to make many many of us to do the things I listed. Each incident was one personally attested to by people right here. Please don`t mischaracterize me or my post. Pipes, I think that you nailed that effectively. I agree with your conclusion.

Dove, you didn`t experience it, I get that, honest I do. Never the less, these teachings were public, the teachings were used as a tool to get us to do horrible things or risk losing the protection of God. Some called it coersion ...some called it force as they were applied... You don`t see it that way...shrug, I guess it is all in ones perspective. If you were faced with the loss of God`s blessing and protection for lack of obedience in any one of these catagories, your perspective might be different. You might not feel like these teachings were as innocuous as they appear on the surface.

Polar bear, I agree. The scriptures could be tortured to mean anything that the teacher wanted.....and if it didn`t sit right, we were always told the lack was in us or our understanding. The good times are rolling for sure now! Potato, I think that the fight is because if you don`t find a way to assigne blame the victim, you have to come to grips with the idea that the abuser whom you loved and trusted was not really who you believed that they were at all. It is tough to find out that your trust was betrayed. Mountain top, I agree....many indeed used their wealth to help and deliver, that was what made it all so confusing....but you had the guys at the top who were hiding behind the good hearted folks that were doing their best to help others.

Dove, from what I know of you, you are just a really nice guy that was sheltered from the evil of twi. You weren`t corpes, I don`t think you were even a wow, I am not sure you ever even left town for any length of time to experience other parts of of twi in all of the time that you were involved ....shrug You know only what things were like in your insulated little corner of twi. What affected you directly. It is wrong for you to claim to know what was taught to the wow`s to the corpes and to family corpes at any given teaching or location or time frame. There are plenty of people here who heard this teaching. There are folks that have corroborated that it came straight from vpw. There are numerous first hand accounts given here of it being used to coerce/force people to do horrible ungodly things. No YOU weren`t taught this...ok No YOU weren`t beaten....ok No YOU weren`t forced to beat a child....ok No YOU wern`t forced to have an abortion.....ok No YOu weren`t forced to m&a a family member.....ok No YOU weren`t forced to sell your home.....with the enforcement of this doctrine.......alright.....I am glad that it did not happen to you..... But that in no way negates that there are many of us who WERE forced to do things, terrible things against our will and better judgement in order to remain under the umbrella of God`s protection.. This was the doctrine used that made us sit quietly by without daring protest. It was cruel, it was wrong. It happened in a ministry and at the hands of ministers that claimed to be working for God. From the fruit exhibited, I think that THE lied, NOT the people, espescially the children who suffered so grievously at their hands.

Dove, you cannot change what was taught or done to us in God`s name. It was dead wrong and it was sanctioned and taught from the very top. Your one time stroll through Rome city halls does not make you an authority on what was taught and what was inflicted on the participants of the family corpes program. The accounts of abuse and cruelty, related by the mini corpes survivors, as well as the parents that were there in the child abuse thread attest to the truthfullness of their accounts. I can attest to the truthfullness of the teachings mentioned above being the s.o.p. used to force women into abortions. It was a horrible misuse of scriptures. EXACTLY Potato!

That was it Dog Lover and Pipes, we were vulnerable because we loved God. We allowed evil to succede one step at a time.

But Dove, the founder/presedent/teacher DIDN`T teach just the opposite. He was the one who taught it to the way corpes who then taught it to us. He taught in varying degrees to the folks what he claimed that they could *handle* as the truth. The further up the way tree you climbed by way of classes, and programs, the more intense the doctrine. You having not been past a tc, were not exposed to a lot of the more insidious doctrines...shrug that dosen`t negate that they were taught or that vpw wasn`t the source. Evan says on the child abuse thread that he was. I know from others who were abused that the same lines were used on them. Gosh, what it sounds like you are really doing, is trying to place the blame for the unconcionable abuse of people on those whom were mistreated, and for some unfathomable reason and justifying the people who inflicted the evil. Well if you all weren`t just so damned stupid...... Dove this stuff came from the top, like it or not.