rascal

Heyya Neo, nice to meet you. There are some darned good reasons that many of us take a dim view of vpw. It isn`t always about being filled with gaul and bitterness. Maybe when you find out what he DID to our precious brothers and sisters, you would change your perception of how *valuable* he was. When someones actions are so heinous, despicable, even down right criminal....you may sure that when these deeds are brought to the light of day .... that people would indeed *talk* and be deeply offended. He was impressed with Johnny`s fishing skills.....I am sure that is a big deal when viewed in the light of raping our sisters...geeze Bitter? Damned straight friend. When the off shoots start putting that in perspective, I might consider that they have some credibility.

Oh excathedra, I am so sorry. The suggestion of a cage with fresh food is good. Also walking around the neighborhood talking where she can hear you, many times will lure her out of hiding. Oh and fliers at the local business and veterenarians are also a great idea, because sometimes the bird will seek shelter in a garage or shed and the people do not know where they belong.

I have seen much different statistics hap. I am pretty sure that people/organizations (not you) shape the statistics to reflect the point that they want to make. The statistics quoted in the state approved gun safety course I attended were very very different. One of the things those statistics DON`T show is that extremely few of those assault by fire arms, or accidental discharge are committed by people who are legally permitted to carry their weapon. Trust me, one is made well aware of the consequences. Even though I have legally completed the requirements, I have yet to apply for the permit itself....all I can think about is the chance of missing and hurting someone else, not to mention how sobering the 100, 000 dollar legal fee, and possible prosecution and jail time if I am mistaken. It just isn`t fair to lump the statistics of all of the law abiding citizens who follow the rules, with the criminals who are illegally obtaining guns and committing felonies. My husband recieves a hunting/gun magazine that has a page or two every single issue of incidents where people have successfully managed to defend themselves with their weapon against an assailant or attacker.....many of them are women...shrug You don`t hear about these because they are not widely reported outside of their area...not considered news worthey. Oh and it IS illegal to carry a fire arm into the post office, into a school, into any court house or law enforcement center even when permitted to carry. There are many business who post signes on their doors prohibiting fire arms in their establishment, and a responsible gun owner is legally required to honor that. I suspect that maybe you and I are closer in thought on this than it would appear on the surface hap.

Belle, you are WELCOME to come out to my house and plink away to your hearts content! I`ll set up the cans personally for you, though fruit can be quite entertaining as well. Weekends in our valley on a pretty day are pretty darned funny. You hear reports of different weapons all up and down the valley as each family sharpens their skills. Every once in a while, you will notice a little different report and realise the Davis`s must have picked up a new rifle...then speculations abound on what calibur...the range, etc.....lol

So, that lady was a lunatic...shrug That should not prevent my friend or myself as law abiding citizens (meaning that we have completed the back ground checks, recieved the appropriate training, legally applied for and recieved permits) the opportunity to responsibly purchase a gun for self protection. If my friend felt like the law enforcement (who by the way were the ones who recommended that my friend do precisely this course of action) cannot protect her from the dangerous man who wants to bully and harasss defenseless women, then she should have the means at her disposal to legally do so.

God save us from your sister in law. I misunderstood, I thought you were saying that my friend shouldn`t be allowed to have one (which is why I went to the gun safety course to begin with)

I suppose Tom, but then too, there ought to be phychological tests to determine ones suitability to parent before having children, or physical tests to determine ones genetic suitability, in utero tests to determine a fetus` general health before allowing it to come to term....etc. Yes, you have a few nut jobs that will invariably be able to get through the filtration system, that are unsuitable. But I hardly see that as an excuse to deny the reasonable, responsible adults who chose to be law abiding citizens the ability to protect themselves and their families if they so desire untill we do have a reliable psycological exam process in place. Is my friend and her daughter to be at the mercy of the lunatic ex that is trying to kill them? They live a mile back off of the road in a secluded area. There is no way that law enforcement could get there in time to help. He isn`t intimidated by that, he might however be detered when Judy levels that gun and tells him to get the he ll away from the daughter and off of her property the next time he is trying to hurt them.

Well it certainly solves the *problem* of being in emminent danger of physical harm or death <_<

Never the less, I thought that it was a pretty mean thing to say in response to somebody who simply made the effort to move to an area that wasn`t rampant with gang activity. I moved out into the country. It has nothing to do with being white or flight from another ethnic race. It is all about not wanting the violence of gangs in ones neighborhood. It appears to be an unjustified racial slur against Dot, and came off as a personal attack.

When you snapped at Dot *whitey flighty* when she moved out of the tough neighborhood, Cool. I am not siding against you, I just think that you jumped someone unjustly.

Cool, I loved your visit. I loved meeting you. I am explaining this very badly. Sigh...deep breath....You appear to be viewing people as being intolerant racists when it is simply the lawless, violent, destruction that the gangs bring with them that is objectional. People are frightened, and are doing the best that they can to stop the spread of frightening lawlessness. To accuse Dot, and anyone else who choose not to live in a rough neighborhood of *whitey flighty* was unkind, and the first *racial* stone thrown here, and unjust.

Hey Cool, glad that you took my post in the spirit that it was offered. I know that you told me once, you had a perception based on your experiences that there might be racial hatred and persecution in this particular area of the country. Your perceptions of my area at the time seemed possibly colored by your experiences in other areas. It was my impression that you didn`t find the bigotry that you expected. That was simply the connection that I was trying to draw. That your perception as to the reasons for people being offended and willing to defend against the gang was not race based, but violence and crime based. As far as ms13, there was a television special on them not to long ago. They are dangerous and viscious, and completely terrifying. NOT because they are Latino, or that they come from South AMericaa, but BECAUSE they chose to bring their drugs and violence and cruelty to us who simply want to live in a society governed by rules that protect us while we work hard to earn a living and raise our children They want to make the rules, and when we don`t agree, we die.

I agree guys, that was the point that I was trying to make. It is possible to carry a fire arm and be responsible. Most people who go through the arduous, and expensive process of obtaining, being educated, and getting licensed, are conscientious. These are not the folks that you need to be afraid of. I study martial arts as well, and the legal requirements and ramifications are the same. If I were to cause injury to someone without *emminant fear of serious physical harm or death*, I would be prosecuted. The FIRST thing that we learn is not to be where trouble is.... second: leave if possible, third: try to talk your way out, fourth: try to run, f fifth: only after all else is exhausted.... defend. Only after all other recourse have been tried, are you permitted to protect yourself. Oldies, here in Tenn, there is a list of the states that *reciprocate* where one is allowed to carry their gun.

Cool, I must be misreading you. It felt like you are assigning racial motives to why people would find gang presence objectionable. My point was, however badly expressed was, that their behavior is as objectionable to me as that of any other criminal threatening my family or well being. I don`t have to look for the under lying reason to know that I don`t want it, and will fight strenuously to keep it out of our neighborhoods and away from our families. Goodness....I KNOW how you feel about child molesters....cannot others feel the same furious repugnance to those who would invade our neighborhoods, corrupt our children, destroy our teens with drugs, deface the property that we work so damned hard to earn the money to pay for? I know how you feel, I was trying to draw a comparison as to how the rest of us could feel violated by the mindless evil that is attempting to establish itself in our neighborhoods WITHOUT it being a race based opinion. No more than that, nor wa it intended as insult.

On the *Gangs* thread there were some people that seemed really offended with the idea of folks being armed. One of the fellows in chat seemed to be quite disturbed at the idea of people carrying fire arms. There seems to be this perception of mindless the public carrying guns firing indiscriminantly at shadows. I wondered if folks in general know what is actually required to carry a gun. I recently accompanied a friend who fears for her safety from a soon to be ex son in law to a gun safety class. She lives way out in the county and the police can not possibly protect her. She did the responsible thing. She purchased a fire arm and then went to the gun safety course that is required before one can apply for a permit. That course covers safety, legal issues, and practical application. It was an all day course and there was a waiting list to apply. Among other things, we were instructed that in order to fire our weapon we have to be in *eminent danger of physical harm or death* in order to not be charged with a crime afterwards. We learned that IF we ever draw our weapon and fire and EVEN if it is found to be justified, we had darned well better plan on having to dish out 100, 000 dollars in legal fees in defense of ourselves. IF we ever draw and fire our weapon in a case of justified self defense and we miss...inadvertantly causing property damage, injuring a bystander or killing an innocent person. We will lose everything that we own in being sued for damages in civil court. All sobering reasons to maintain a cool head and composure. In order to apply for a pemit in our state, you have to be finger printed in order to ensure that you have no criminal back ground. You have to have proof of having attended a state certified safety course, (which is quite costly as well as very time consuming) you have to pay a hefty fee, and you have to wait several weeks, maybe even moths to recieve your permit, and it has to be renewed on a regular basis to ensure that your legal status has not changed. In short, I am just trying to clear up the misconception that people who carry are not necessary gun toting loonies looking for any excuse to blow somebody they don`t like away. It is a time consuming, thought provoking, and very expensive process. One that is not entered lightly, or without serious consideration to ones responsibility when one makes this decision. I hope that maybe in explaining the process a little bit that it might make people a little less afraid of the idea of responsible citizens who are simply trying to protect themselves.

Cool, you know that I think an awfull lot of you. I want to gently ask you a question. Not because I want to offend, but simply for you to consider. Could it be that your difficult personal experiences color your perception of innocent people and their attitudes and views concerning race? People who chose to fight the incursions of these criminals into their neighborhoods are not racist...nobody notices the skin color here...it is the crime and violence that these gangs bring with them. It isn`t a race issue....We have the right to say *no, I do not want that here where I live*. I can be strongly anti gang and not be a racist pig. I can carry a fire arm to protect myself and family, and not be a lunatic vigilante. I can fight to keep the gangs and the criminal element out of my neighborhood and not be a heartless monster. I think that these gangs, and the violence and crime that accompany their chosen life style flourish when they are not fought vehemently by those who value our homes, our families and our communities. I think that the crime that they foist upon us, the innocent citizens, is to be combated as harshly with any means at our disposal, as we would rapists, child molesters, murderers, in short, the people who chose to violate us and our loved ones. Your arguments could be turned around and applied to any criminal element of society. Would you feel the same if it was child molesters that Dot was fighting against in her neighborhood? Would you tell her that she must be more understanding of the underlying causes of their situation and spend mega bucks on new buildings and activities to hopefully keep them otherwise occupied? I don`t think that we should have to put up with these criminals, get along and let them live beside us as long as they treat us personally ok? We have rules to live in peacefully in this society, we shouldn`t have to lay them aside because the violent games are overwhelming and we just simply want to *survive*. What you guys did in your area that was already over run by the violence was admirable, probably the best that could be done once the gangs were entrenched and strong. However, I think that these people that chose to live this life style has to be fought aggressively BEFORE it gets to the level that you described, and that Dott is doing a very noble thing in taking proactive action in refusing to even allow the graffitti that represents these criminals in her part of the town. It simply isn`t a racist thing to want to be safe and protect our neighborhoods which include, any who want to abide by our rules, regardless of their ethnicity.

Dave, I have always believed that you were a class act.

Gosh, it chaps my arse that we were needed on the front lines, while lcm`s and other big wig kiddoes are not required to pay their dues...aka classes, wow, corpes, assignments in order to be well pleasing to God. We lived on a shoe string budget, giving everything above need for the movement of God`s word, not to mention our homes, our resources, our time in outreach and bringing in more income for them. All in order to see to it that their kids get a college education and can make a decent living in this world.

That truly is sickening. I was 17 when I got involved in twi. I was told that GOD needed me to move his word, needed me to be on the front lines of the spiritual battle. NOT seeking a worldly education. I was told that it wasn`t best, I was told that I owed my money, my time, my efforts to God (via twi) for the outreach of his word, rather than persuing my own selfish goals in life... To hear that leaderships children were not only allowed to go to college, but had their way paid with MY extort er I mean tithe money. God, that just makes me sick that not only were we denied an education because God needed us, but we had the privilege of actually PAYING for THEIR kids to go. Just when I think that I cannot be any more suprised at the theft and hypocracy in twi ...I am suprised and angered all over again. What a bunch of self rightious arse holes. Denying so many of us a chance at an education, yet ensuring their own are not only encouraged to better themselves ..... but PAID for...Geeze

Too Cool NP, thanks for that. You are correct, there are good and bad representatives of every group. Maybe it is just how we percieve things.... I mean geeze, I feel like I am attacked and bullied for exactly the opposite reasons....lol That was what I was trying to say to people, however badly that I stated it.... I mean, I would like to think in terms of What do I bring to the *table* to make this a wholesome healing place, or the place that I would like to visit? Rather than simply being mad at someone else for not bringing what I personally like. I guess that I am just crazy about all of us and am unhappy when everybody (or anybody) is painted with a broad brush. I think that if we all could see one another as valuable, individual, as precious....rather than pass judgement based on the lables that we wear.....we might understand each other better. (I am speaking to myself as well here)

Good question NP. I don`t mean to be offensive. Truly, there are people here that I respect from a wide variety of spiritual back grounds. The *fruit* that comes through, the love, the patience, the long suffering, meekness....you get what I mean comes through in what we write. Those are the people who`s judgement I respect and perceptions that I consider. No matter which group they participate in. Maybe the people who choose to be venemous or self rightious or bullies are not a fair representative of a group or the teachings that they espouse...but they sure give me pause to wonder what they are taught that makes bullying behavior acceptible.

I may not have direct personal involvement with off shoots, no. The only reference point that I have for determining the spiritual healthiness or lack there of in any particular group and what they teach, is the way that people who have participated and support them behave. What do you bring to the table here?

Cow girl, I think that was the meanest thing said on this thread, in fact everything that you accused the other posters of being. I don`t know if you are mad at a poster personally, or that someone disagrees with cff, or that they have a disagreement with being personally critisized. <_<

Awww Belle, I don`t want to seem like I am picking on anybody. People who come here don`t know our individual battles engaged, our victories, the obsticles over come over the years. The camradery and impact that we have had on one anothers lives here. I was just trying to gently indicate that the people here are precious as well, Each with a uniquely special view point, each having learned insight on the path that they have traveled since leaving twi and worth sharing. I just was trying to point out how precious people here are and how valuable the various insight can be, no matter which group or church or philosophy that one currently subscribes to.

Thanks Sushi, I can always rely on you to help fix my goofs...lol That is the link to the main church sight. www.uia.net/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm is what is at the top of the page for the way international stuff.