rascal

Ummm ..... All of em? They were all torturous. I faithfully attended any offered as any earnest believer would do in order to grow spiritually. I was always waiting for the bells and whistles to go off . After each class or seminar I would hide my dissapointment, assuming that my lack of spirituality was why I jut didn`t get it...... I`d have to say that the advanced class at Emporia in 84 was a blast, but that was because John Lynn made it really funny in between the boring teachings, and we had a blast when class wasn`t running. Did anybody else go downstairs and sneak a peek into the strictly forbidden room? Sound out 84 was a blast, but again it was the location and extra curricular activities that made it memorable.

Gosh Lisa, I am sorry for your loss. Your father was really special. Thank you for letting us know in this most difficult of times.

That thing about the mother and son really ate me up too. Most mothers that I know worry constantly and obsessively over the safety of their children. It is how we are wired and how we spot the dangers ahead of time to protect. Trust me, if the *law of believing* worked, my first born would have never made it to 18. I wish that I could pretend that my *believing* would make everything hunky dory, I`d have a lot less stress and gray hair these days.

Dott, you know I have a soft spot for Danes. Do you have any knowledge if the abused Dane found a good home? They are the gentlest of giants, I cannot bear to think of one of those sweet gentle souls being forced to fight for their lives. If you have any knowledge of this dog or if he needs a loving home, I would glady bring him here to live with our other Dane, sweet zena. My experience with Pits is that they can be very dangerous unpredictable animals. I am a fan of every dog, but this is one breed that should be tightly regulated....ie never able to be owned or bred by families with children, never owned by someone who doesn`t have the fascilities to prevent these animals from harming innocent animals and children. In my opinion, the restrictions should be as tight on them as the exotic animals ie tigers and bears and elephants. Oh and how AWSOME about the dog coming to the resue. Was anybody able to find it and reward it afterward? The dogs that killed the woman in the hallwayin California were presacanarios I know the spelling isnt` right, but they are very different and dangerous animals....this pair gave many warnings, there were many many complaints made.... Mastiffs like the one in your picture are generally quite protective and sweet. When an intruder comes though, they have been bred for centuries to actually knock the offender down and sit or lie on them Don`t let the fierce looks decieve you. They are wonderfull intellegent reasonable animals.

Oh and places like Frito Lay and off shoots will continue because there seems to always be a fresh supply of people willing to put up with the abuse and pretend that the people who have been thrown away were somehow to blame.

You know, I saw this once in a Frito Lay factory I worked in. They would do horrible, sometimes illegal things to people, but call it by nice sounding names untill a persons usefullness was exhausted. If they wanted you to rat out your fellow employee, it was called giving *feed back* If they required that you would work beyond what was legally allowed, they changed the job description that you clocked in under. When your body finally broke down because of the unending stress of heavy lifting, and needed hip replacement and back surgery...they looked you right in the eye and said...*you cannot PROVE that this happened on Frito Lay time* and you were out the door because your usefullness was exhausted. That is what happens with this twi/off shoot stuff....use scriptures and misapplied teachings to do as you darned well pleas e rather than getting honest with God and making the difficult but necessary changes when we have gone off track...sigh When it all comes crumbling down, blame satan, blame the person wronged, but deflect it from yourself at all cost. People like EP/Frito Lay, seem to want everybody to just stfu and forgive, not hold people accountable, so that things can go right back to the way they always have been. Oh there will be a few little cosmetic changes, but nothing to address the deeper abuse issues. Damned right they want the questions stopped, so the verses are trotted out to try to shame their critics into silence........sure they want us to love/ie ignore the perpetrators actions so that they won`t have to look deeper into their own souls and address where they are wrong. It is the same old thing as was with twi....cover your ars with scriptures and you won`t have to go through the arduos process of rebuilding your faulty, cracked and crumbling foundation.

Great points, Mark, word wolf and Rich. What a darned shame that estimated prophet is unwilling and unable to read them He has to post and then flee, because A) Our words are not worth reading or our thoughts worth considering...ie we are of no value. B) They are frightened. In order to live in their world, one must rightiously pronounce judgement and then run, all the while patting themselves on the back for telling those *evil* ones off, mentally checking off their good deed done for God this day. I feel so sad.

What really hurt about this so called law is that when we failed to achieve the required results...ie health, corpes tuition, needed classes that weren`t offered in your state. You were yelled at for substandard believing. You were weak. These situations were mild comparedto when people died alone, scared and in condemnation, not knowing how or where they had blown it. Believers/family/friends all stayed away. The one who had failed was treated with revulsion. It was a sick twisted teaching that tormented people when they needed love and support the most. It also let people off the hook from caring or having to do anything

I`d call em. Tell them what you just said here. That you have just gotten their number, that you have missed them and wanted to get caught up. Let them carry the ball from there. Wafers give themselves away pretty quickly. Maybe they have questions for you. Maybe you are the calm voice of reason that hasn`t become posessed or died since leaving.... If they are out, then you can laugh together at the folly of our youth.

Thanks for considering my thoughts E.P. I have to wonder if J.L. really gets it either, because I gather from his letter that he is still very much a *if you don`t like what I say you are the one screwed up* type of guy. The whole *leader* concept, the idea, their responsibilities, as we were taught ......I believe is misunderstood. The true *leaders* I have met since leaving never claim to be *leaders* they just serve. They leave the *leading* to the true shepherd and focus on their genuine responsibility as ministers...serving/ministering to Jesus` flock.

Ok, I am not trying to pick your words apart Estimated Prophet....I don`t want you to feel that I am attacking you. But gosh, something you said has just leaped right off the page at me.... *They saw lots of sheep with no shepherd and wanted to help*....could this is the problem?..... Wasn`t Jesus supposed to be the shepherd? Maybe these guys are trying to do a job (no matter how well intentioned they are) that simply has never been theirs? There is always going to be problems when someone tries to replace the shepherd of the flock, in a way they really are not allowing Jesus to do his job. They are ill equipped, and untrained, and therefor the wolves come time and again to ravage the flock. As they are not really shepherds, they are unable to recognise the cleverly disguised predator...and then must stand by completely incapacitated, helpless to prevent the slaughter. They can only numbly wait untill the wolves have sated their appetites, depleted the flock, then trudge through the carnage of the destroyed and gather the remaining flock, calling them unto them, promising a safety that they are never able to really provide. The rest of the flock, are thankfull that they were not one of the slaughtered, not knowing the real shepherd, confidently resume following the psuedo shepherd. Just food for thought. Maybe these guys need to return the sheep to the real shepherd and resume lives as one of the flock...shrug

I cringe to think....but I know that there is nothing that I would not, and did not do for twi/God. God would not bless me and Satan would be allowed to kill me if I didn`t. No matter how personally repulsive, any action required, I did so believing that was the only way to stay in God`s will. To not obey, meant spiritual suicide. Damned right I would have killed if asked, and if asked I would have died in defense. It is embarassing to admit, but I drank deeply. I don`t know if it was because I was 17 and had no reference point or guidance when I got involved. I don`t know if it was that I experienced the trauma of the death of a close friend for the first time when I was taking the clas .and was told that it was Satan...having a *family* when mine was such a mess.... I can only look back and shake my head in disbelief. I can only ask for forgiveness for the harm that I caused, the people whom I neglected. No I did nothing illegal, I was never asked. I was however required to destroy a wanted unborn child. I gave up everything that was important, my family, my college education, my horses, the wonderfull dog that traveled with me for so many years.... All heartbreakingly difficult decisions, but made because I was told that God required this of me.

(((((psalmie)))) I am sorry. The wildflower garden is a great idea. My husband doesn`t get it either when I insist on burying my pets and planting a memorial garden or sunflower house. Then again, it is usually a horse or large dog I am having to deal with. We have rock walls and gardens all over our yard in memory of our dear friends.

My Dad`s neighbors once found a cockatiel in their garage. Maybe your little one has found a warm garage or shed to hide in.

(((((((((((psalmie))))))))))) what a heart breaking dilemna. I understand, there is never an easy answere when trying to figure out when to put one down. Your kitty has been well loved and cared for. You need have no shame for not being able to afford a surgery that the cat might not survive. It seems to me that the only question is how long to keep her with you. The nuts that post that crap that you spoke of, do not usually have children or families to care for. YOU know what a good pet owner you are. My suggestion is to make these last few days (if indeed they are) as comfortable as you can for her. Let her know how special that she is. Tell her that you intend to see her again some day. It has been my experience that she will let you know when it is time to go.

Dang, I knew I`d lost em round here some where.... Thanks hap, it was distressing to think that I had offended you. Sorry I didn`t follow you better. ~rascal~ (who`s also a married liberal(?) republican armed, trained, and hopes never to have to be dangerous)

Thank you Belle. Neo, those threads that Belle highlited, will help you to understand without putting the people who shared in it through the gauntlet again.

I guess that I am puzzled... Hap are you irritated because you think that we shouldn`t have access to guns? Are you in favor of owning guns but only under strict guidlines? Having a gun but only at home? No guns for responsible law abiding citizens period? I am honestly puzzled as to your position here. It seems like you are contesting the advisability of me owning/carrying a fire arm. Please clarify and then mayb I can communicate appropriately.

Gosh Hap, I didn`t mean that we couldn`t converse and I wasn`t trying to control this thread...you can post whatever you want to. This is a discussion, not Cathy`s platform to preach what she believes.. I value and appreciate your opinion. I DID start this thread with the intent of showing why one wouldn`t need to be afraid of people arming themselves legally. I wondered if people were aware of just how carefull and thought provokng the process is. ....where it goes from there is anybodies business. I thought we had moved on to discussing the advisability of allowing law abiding citizens to be armed. I don`t understand why you are picking up your marbles and leaving. (btw Did you find any of the ones I seem to have lost?)

((((Neo))) I am sorry. Not everybody knew. Mostly only those who were *initiated* they were called *spiritual enough to handle it* There were teachings that made it biblically seem ok. Most are very earnest in their love and defense of vpw. Most cannot fathom the evil that would do such a thing. You are not alone, it is a bitter bitter betrayal. The neat thing though is that once you recognise what happened, you can begin to rebuild that foundation of truth again....you start all over fresh. You examine each brick, each stone from your old foundation and decide if it is solid and worthey (many are) of you new stronger foundation. It is a tough process, but in the end, the sands won`t wash it away. I didn`t want to be mean....I just thought that if you understood why some of us were so angry, you would understand that it isn`t just a bitterness issue. Neo, thank you for considering my words rather than just branding me a liar because you didn`t want to hear.

I just don`t understand the mentality of people who feel it is better to remain helpless and allow the criminals to attack rape and kill at will..... We have a constitutional right as well as I believe a duty to protect ourselves and our loved ones when and where ever possible. I study karate, I make my children study, and they will all learn to be good marksman and handle a weapon safel in time. I have dogs that warn when there are intruders.... I don`t understand where there is a problem with that. Even here in the county we have unsolved murders...I know personally a woman that was found in the river half naked and dead....taken from her home in broad day light....the place where she should have felt safe. Maybe she wouldn`t have died had she known how to defend herself. It has been four years, I doubt that they will catch the murderer(s) I don`t want that to happen to my daughters or sons.

My point was that there were episodes documented every month of people successfully defending themselves when under attack. In counter to your claim of every once in a long while you hear of a person successfully defending themselves. Your statistics are entirely unapplicable to this discussion because the information encompasses all assaults with fire arms, almost entirely comprised of people who obtain and operate their fire arm illegally. The likely hood of a crime of passion occuring when there is a three day wait for a gun purchased, accompanied witha back ground check....a several week wait plus a lot of money to take your safety course, plus the back ground and finger printing that is done when you actually apply for your permit, plus the money for the permit. It is a long drawn out process. Crimes of passion are immediate, and those perpetrating them will use any object that comes to hand to get the job done. We have people murdered with knives, axes, blunt force trauma, fists....even a chain saw in the middle of town once. People who are passionately angry enough to kill don`t need a gun to do the job. I repeat, my contention was that the vast majority of people with permits to carry guns are not to be feared, and they might save themselves or their loved ones one day from someone who isn`t as concientious in their observance of the laws and rights of others. For us to be denied the right to protect ourselves because of the criminals with no regard for the laws or our safety is wrong.

I am trying to find those threads to pull up. Neo, vpw` s sexual abuse and rape is not even contested any more. Even his most ardent supporters agree that it happened, they just figure it was a character flaw, of an other wise very good man...shrug. I disagree.

Can you understand why some of us would have trouble having respect for these guys after learning what they did to our innocent brothers and sisters? People died.

Oh gosh Neo, I am so sorry for your friends. I hate to say it, but I have heard worse first hand accounts about lcm. He was a real class a monster. Believe it or not, after reading the first hand accounts.....Vpw was even worse, he was just a little smarter in how he delt with *damage* control. There are numerous first hand accounts of the drugging and rape that occured. One high ranking well respected off shoot leader confirmed it was known that the drugging was occuring ..... These stories are brutal, it is hard every time that these folks come forward because people accuse them of evreything from lying to seducing..... There is one person in these forums who was actually given a drink neo, and raped by vpw, there is another poster who had to deal with his nasty naked self before he was interrupted. There are several others who told their stories on john juedes` messiah 7 sight. I will not tell anothers story here, but you can read their first hand accounts on a thread called *sexual abuse in the way* I think it is called, There is also a lot of personal information on the *suicide in the way* thread. If you are genuine in your desire for truth, for the practices of the man behind the carefully crafted public image...please read these first hand accounts. They are blood chilling. You can search for those two threads they are graffic and brutal, told by people that are well known and loved, that have established their veracity here through the years. You will find in your reading why you never heard of these accounts, what happened to the people who tried to refuse, and to any who tried to tell. Neo, I am sorry. I am sorry that you have to read this stuff because it is heart breaking to find out that somebody that you respected and trusted could perpetrate such evil.