rascal

I disagree. That whole idea of holding on to the good seems to be mostly an excuse to continue trying to patch and repair what appears to be a crumbling foundation in a desperate attempt to save the structure that so much time, effort and money have been spent building. I think that it is far better to raze the entire unsound structure to the ground and begin to build a new structure with a solid foundation. It is tough, costly, it takes longer.....but in beginning fresh, with the skills and knowledge that you have aquired, in the end you have a solid structure that can actually withstand the storms.

(((Full circle))) I am sorry. They had to have somebody to blame rather than accept responsibility for the failability of their doctrines.

Glad to see you friend.

I believed.

It was having to wake up to beautifull ohio that was awfull... Being a teen, I guess that I lacked the maturity to fully appreciate the the operetic style in which it was preformed over the scratchy loud speakers.....groan NOW it is in my head...please...get it oooooooooooooooooooooooout

Lol, I loved the roa. Every year my wow family would meet for a reunion. I would meet one day with my old *dakota* twig....Every line you stood in was a chance to make friends with those around you. I felt like I was a part of the coolest group of folks on the planet. I felt like nobody loved God or each other as much as we did. I thought that *the return* was going to pale in comparrison....lol The fly over was wonderfull, the band singing it`s good to be home again....made me proud ...lol they did a good job on me... The food was fabulous, wow burgers, biscuts n gravey, the farmers market for fresh plums...mmmmm I loved working. I did garbage pick up for many years. If it started raining we just made slickers out of garbage bags and continued with out hearts light, contented to be serving the body of Christ. The only really bad year was when the water contaminated and so many of us got so seriouls ill...the storms that flattened tent city wwere terrifying, but I always looked back in wonder at how God had taken care of us...so even the *negatives* ...lol seemed ok OH and the music!!! The dances in the big top Sammy Preyn, Bob Stanly, Joyfull noise...I thought it was all HUGE fun. The book store, the place where believers sold their stuff..... Funny enough, the teachings at night that were supposed to be the focus generally were to be endured. I thought maybe I was unspiritual or something because it was so torturous to sit through so many hours on those hard chairs.

EXACTLY Oak!!! It is just an excuse so that he doesn`t have to deal with the difficult questions....the coward.

Or perhaps johnj, one should not live their life in a manner that causes them to be afraid to address people ...shrug I see it two ways.... A) He is scared to death of people whom he cannot control through his religion. B) He doesn`t give a damn about people outside of his religion. Either way it isn`t flattering. He is however really brave in slinging the mud and accusations when he doesn`t have to face people he denegrates and slanders..lol

Estimated Prophet, I am glad that you can discuss these ideas with me without being defensive and mean. Looking at what you say from my point of view however, it appears that you are having to twist/ignore scripture in order to maintain you current belief system. I think that is part of what makes twi dogma an unsound foundation to build your house upon. The way I see it.....either Jesus` word`s are true or they aren`t. I think that he meant it when he told us that a bad tree does not bear good fruit....that he told us what fruit to look for in recognising one another. I think that Galatians lists fruit and tells us which is which. Those that manifest that fruit of the flesh ....have no inheritance in the kingdom of God....read it...there is no room to wiggle. Too bad vp and the leaders DIDN`T take the verse you spoke of litterally and cut off their *offending body members* it would have saved a whole lot of pain and heart ache. Oh, and far as a place where the fruit from the tree is good? Since leaving twi, I have seen it, I have seen genuine christians, people who manifest the fruit of the spirit. You do a great many people who DO manage to walk in the spirit a disservice in declaring it not possible. It CAN be done. I have seen it.

Not to mention the mixing metaphors. Jesus said that you CAN`T get good fruit from a bad tree or bad fruit from a good tree....the only thing to do was to uproot the tree entirely, if my memory serves correct. I think that if you haven`t had genuinely wholesome fruit, it is easy to pretend that the garbage that you are currently consuming isn`t all that bad. The whole eat the fish and spit out the bones analogy that John Lynn fans are so fond of quoting is simply bogus from a scriptural point of view. You have to get humble and start all over again, otherwise you are simply trying to patch up a crumbling foundation.

I personally think that it is pretty darned smart to analyse what happened, figure out what made us vulnerable, and how things could go so terribly wrong in order to grow and not repeat mistakes. It is also very nice to finally be allowed to have an opinion, and the opportunity to voice that. Some of us were shut down for decades.

Dunno, wolf. I was reading an interesting discussion about the *missing day* What happened between monday when V killed Lily and and James and tuesday when Harry was retrieved by Hagrid and brought to the Dursleys. Surely he wasn`t sitting alone in the smoldering ruins of the house for 24 hrs? If there was a lightening shaped scar, the day after, as it never really an open wound? Who could see him there if it was unplottable. How long was he there? Were there accomplices with V when this happened? One would certainly think that he didn`t go alone to do such a dangerous job as attempting to destroy the child of two highly skilled members of tootp. Who was there with v, why did they leave Harry after their master was destroyed?? Could the scar possibly have something to do with additional horcruxes to be created with the death of L&J? If V was destroyed when his spell against Harry rebounded, who then retrieved his wand from the ruins, so that worm tail could have it in the robes that V put on when he returned to his body in tgof? It would indicate that wormtail might have been with him, or visited the house shortly after before the destruction was discovered. Not many ideas about the scar, but many many questions about that day.

Typical when forced to acknowledge the bad fruit. Fer Gawds sake find some way to blame it on somebody, ANYBODY else, rather than get honest enough to reexamine the beliefs and actions that are producing the rotten stuff. It is pure arrogance. Sorry word wolf I was posting at the same time. I guess that I just feel so bad for the folks who dared hope that these people were the ministers and leaders that they claimed to be. I guess you have a pretty good point. These guys could not operate if people weren`t so willing to tolerate the garbage.

...*and people who LET THEMSELVES be abused* geeze Holy smoke. The bad fruit comes from the people who were abused?? Now THATS a new twist...um have you ANY scriptural reference for such a statement, or is that some more of this personal prophesy crap?? These arse holes set themselves up as messengers/leaders to bring people closer to God....they insist that only in adhering to their teachings and suggestions is one going to grow spiritually. They visciously mistreat people....and it is the people who were foolish enough to want to get closer to God`s fault cause they *let it happen*. This make it somehow ok? Sure a sucker is born every miniute....but some how one expects a minister to be a help in ones spiritual quest for God, NOT to be opportunistic boogers.

One thing I ought to add. The severity of the problems experienced in any given off shoots, as in twi, the parent group, seems to be related directly who the leader is in a particular area. You have a wide variety of experiences in the same group. That is why some people appear to enjoy their involvement, and others were destroyed.

I know that I sound like I am being mellow dramatic here, but this stuff is serious. The scriptures that these folks teach are warped and manipulated to make what Chris Geer and vpw (the founder) appear to be alright, or a minor *slip*. The folks who participate in the off shoots now either don`t know about the character of these men and the damage they inflicted to our innocent brothers and sisters, or they just don`t care. There were drugged rapes, forced abortions, and people driven to suicide in the original group Geer was the worst) all excused with the scriptures that these guys used to enforce their desires and will. There were people who tried to follow the teachings for healing that died when they threw away their medications, *believing* that they were healed.

(((Wendy))) Your prayers are the most powerfull thing that you can do for your daughter. What she does, she thinks she is doing for God. If she feels she must, she will put God/the offshoot before family, friends, and job. We were told to do horrible things because God required it of us. It is not that she will be against you, but she is being told that she will be FOR God. I was convinced that my parents and well meaning family members were working for Satan to trick me away from the *word* The man, Chris Geer, that runs this group was the guy who many have reported (including former leaders themselves) to have given drugged drinks to young women so that they could be raped by the original founder of the group. He is a vile, cruel man, in NO way qualified to teach scriptures. The people that are at the top hiarchy of these groups, are depraved and evil. What they manage to do is attract good hearted, well meaning people to hide behind. They appear healthy and wholesom at the out set because of these well meaning people, and because they teach scripture, they appear harmless. Walk carefully friend, lest you set off those alarm bells that will make her feel like you are being spiritually influenced by satan. I am sorry, but looking back over my time in twi (the parent group), (I became involved at 17) with the utmost of regret for what was taken from me. You will both be in my earnest prayers. I would rather my kids were doing drugs or jail time then to see them become involved, warped and manipulated by these people. Finally, you are NOT over reacting, this is a major cross roads in your kiddoes life, you are involved in a battle for her life and mental wellness.

Well said Momo2.

OOOps yeah JK Rowling`s web site. Sorry, that is what I meant. Woooohooooo!

OMG OMG It WILL be published July 21, 07!!!!! I JUST read it on rk`s sight!!!!! WOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! OMG I am SO EXCITED!!!!!!!! This is SOOOO neat. I know that I checked that site yesterday and it wasn`t there.... Oh MAN to finally get all of the answeres. It is going to be very sad as well, knowing that it is the last to be savored....sigh

I kind of wondered after I heard that rumor if the reason that Lily was nice/stood up for SS was because she knew him before/outside of school. Petunia had more than one correspondence with DD, I wonder if she had a chance to be in the witch world and declined. I guess one of the things Harry will have to do is to hunt down mundungus fletcher. I`ll bet the heavy gold locket that they found while cleaning out the cabinets at the old black house in ottp was the horcrux that Regulus Black (that has to be who rab is and why he was killed) stole from the cave that DD and Harry searched. Harry caught mundungus stealing silver and stuff in thbp, I`ll bet he finds out that dung took the horcrux, not knowing what it was. Have you ever wondered what happened to Harry`s grandparents/relatives on James` side? Serius Black said that he was always welcome to sunday dinner. Surely the Potters had relatives, cousins, etc in the witch world. All of the wizarding families had inter married.

I was rereading ootp recently and was shagrined to find that she gave a HUGE clue as to who the hbp was going to be in the book that was to follow. Remember when Harry was in the pensieve and saw snape taking his exam? He said that there was like a foot of *cramped, crabbed script* on his parchment, describing in the exact same words the writing on the young snapes exam, as she used to describe the writing in the potion book in the hpb book that was to follow. If we had paid attention, we could have figured out early who`s potion book that was...lol Could the girl that was laughing at him riding the bucking broom have been Petunia? I am wondering if she had more to do with the wizarding world than we first imagined.

While on the subject of Neville, why did the DE torture his parents into insanity? Would that have had anything to do with covering the prophesy with both babies that the prophesy might have referred to? Could it be that the reason his folks were tortured was to gain access to where he was? I know I always assumed, but was it ever said if the torture happened before or after v attacked Lily and James? One popular theory regarding Snape, is that he was raised in the muggle world and knew Lily and Petunia. When Petunia burst out concerning the dementors at Azkaban, and said that *awfull boy* had told her.....specualtion is that she was referring to a young snape in the muggle world (his Dad was a muggle) instead of James as we all assumed. I agree the death of DD was contrived between Snape and DD, else why freeze Harry under the invisibility cloak? WHy did DD insist that he needed Snape instead of madame Pomphry when Rosmerta was offering to get help? I think that among other things, they had to give Draco a chance to save himself, and a way to rescue him from the death eaters. Remember when DD said that it wasn`t Draco`s mercy, but his that was important? When Harry was chasing Snape after it happened, Snape had ample opportunity to kill him. He didn`try any killing curses as he was fleeing with Draco. I vote for Snape being a good guy. According to RK`s web sight as of Dec, she is still writing. I seriously doubt that there is time to get it to the publisher and on the shelves by june. I once read where she had finally finished her manuscript (I think it was for OTP) and given it to the publishers. We were all eccstatic.... It was an entire year before the publishers had the book ready for distribution. Sadly, I don`t look for the sequal too soon, I would be delighted to find out that I was wrong.

That is pretty scarey ex 70s houston. Is the dog fixed? It might help. Probably not much. Both of those dog types in his back ground are pretty serious fighters. It sounds like a tragedy or law suit waiting to happen :( . This thread has been deeply upsetting.... I am so frustrated for my friend....her daughter has a baby. The daughter also has two adult pits and now a litter of puppies.... I finally slipped and called her precious grandbaby *pit* chow last night. It was a horrible horrible thing to say, and I apologised immediately, but doggone it what ARE those parents thinking??? The male has already visciously bitten my friends son/the owners little brother a couple of times. One time just for getting too close while mowing the yard. Another time when he tried to break a fight up when the male tried to kill the female. Gosh, she lets them in the house...What happens when the baby starts toddling around the yard? I hope that I am completely wrong, or that the first snap towards the baby doesn`t prove fatal. Sometimes people are criminally stupid.

Broken one, that was the most moving post that I have ever read. You put into words what I have been seeing, but not exactly understanding in my journey since twi. You explain beautifully why it is not a good idea to completely discount any group or denomination....ie God works in whatever medium we will give him access. Thanks