rascal

Lol George...you give me pause to think. Hiway, the jackets were the shiny bright silky tacky stuff that was popular in the early 80s. They were expensive at the time...50 bucks or so....Most clubs motorcycle groups had some version of them. :) They were actually quite striking. They were the deep blue of the wow pin with the wow pin embroidered real big on the back and your name in gold on the front. They were quilted on the inside and warm. They were actually pretty classy for their day imo. I loved mine and was very proud to wear it. Wish I still had it just because I thought it was so spiffy back then.

I had the jacket, my husband shot a hole in it when a bullet ricocheted (no I wasn`t in it at the time) and smashed through the window and through the coat that was hanging in the laundry room...sigh.... I was very sad because I loved it. My husband`s way corpes jacket was beautiful, but it faded to an icky yellow green. I have my wow pins...I cannot explain why I keep them nor why in spite of everything I feel about anything twi....I still feel a sense of pride, accomplishment, respect when I see them.

Dang ahat ... you got babies??? Cool BEANS! :) I guess that we have some catching up to do! Wow act 2 how exciting!! I want to do that someday. Cindy congrats on your schooling and the new grand :)

Twinky, if you are asking about church and volunteers, whether a lakc of willingness to volunteer amongst church members is the norm....I`d have to say that our little country church is amazing. When I was sick, the minister found out that I was unable to make apts to the big hospital in nashville because of cost...she found out what the expense would be, notified the women`s group who raise money at christmas bazars etc...and not only got the money, but enough for gas and lunch afterwards, then she herself drove me because I was too sick to. I am not even an official member...I attend sporadically...I found out that they do the same thing for the woman down the road who is alone and been fighting cancer...the minister takes her out of town to all of her chemo stuff...I have seen them on several occasions help people who have had house fires...I know that there is prison outreach where a young woman wrongly convicted serving 20 years, not only received an education, but was freed and even exonerated, and her children returned. They help build homes for habitat for humanity. My kids have gone weekends to help rebuild a house taken out by a tornado with the youth group. There is a group that goes every year to costa rica to volunteer at a mission/school/church. When the minister found out that my daughter wanted to go to college...she made all of the apts with all of the right people ...and got her enrolled at the methodist college. She has someone helping her to take the right tests, how to get scholarships etc... These are just a few examples that I am aware of in our small country church with probably less than 50 people. I know from friends that other churches in our area are just as involved. Our little karate school (made up from christians from many different groups) is putting on a benefit for St Jude (anybody wanna sponsor me for board breaking? ;) ) What I see for volunteers at least locally, is that it is alive and well, but nobody is expected to. Folks just do it because they believe that it is important. Nobody is shamed into or pressured into it...shrug Do you think that it could be that maybe these guys that are not being leaders are called to do something else?? I guess that it is a very personal thing between them and God about what they can handle or are willing to. How many times did we volunteer to do something that we were neither qualified or capable because we were expected to? There were a lot of people hurt by people who volunteered to be leaders because it was expected. I think that it is God that works in our hearts for this stuff... and if he isn`t ...someones foot in our bu tts isn`t going to be a better motivator.

I guess that I am in agreement with you twinky, I don`t think that ever really WAS right. From the very beginning, even as a minister wierwille was searching for ways around the rules and practices that he didn`t like. I think that being a christian is something that we are inside...that if it is real and genuine, we don`t have a life long struggle with loving our neighbor with the love of God instead of lusting after their wife, their property, jealous of anothers riches etc. I don`t think the man ever knew...I think that he was always trying to find the right formula the right combination the right magic hocus pocus that make him into a spiritual being. I think his life is a sad testimony of ever searching, but never actually coming unto a knowledge of the truth...The thing is he managed to drag a good many genuine christians off track with him.....Many woke up, those who`s introduction to God came via twi...I think it will be very difficult to overcome the false teachings, the idea of what spirituality is and how to achieve it.

That was my thought WG. It reads so mundane when you try to put into words that special little message of life and hope...you know it is something special, something personal a gift.....but to anybody else...it`s no big thing.

Absolutely. That is why I had to toss everything out I ever thought I knew and begin a new foundation to build upon....ie *Love God and Love your neighbor* was my starting place... As far as I am concerned, all that knowledge really did was distract us from our real responsibility. Prideful?? Shoot yeah, arrogant, belligerent, throw them in as well....I`d even go so far as to say that we were trained to tune out the very voice of God with the *renewed* mind as it was taught...that we were taught to silence our conscience and good sense with the whole retemorizing routine....lest we consider ... Jesus didn`t say that we would know one another by how much knowledge we amassed or our works....I think that there very well may be many of us twi folks that are one day to our vast suprise...will be told be Jesus to *depart, for he knew us not*

Great to see you Zix! Nothing new twi wise....stale, boring same old same old...meantime those of us who have escaped continue to live our dreams, mark milestones, accomplish our goals. Since the last time I saw you, three of the *tribe* are now adults, the waydale baby will be 9 tomorrow....3 of us have earned our black belts, one of them starts college this fall :) What about you fella?

Congratulations! What an awsome accomplishment.... I am so glad that you are taking care of yourself. I also sincerely appreciate you keeping greasespot up and running during your personal difficulties. It has been an part of my ever ongoing healing and growth process. I look forward to seeing more of ...(er though um um I guess after losing 100 + lbs that technically there is really less of you now...lol :) ) you around here and am looking forward to hearing more interviews. Cathy

Thanks Bride, well said :) Speaking of *blessed* Easter..lol my son had brought home a little hen a couple of days ago sitting on a nest. He found 11 newly hatched chicks easter morning. It was such a fun suprise...tiny golf ball sized fluff ... now mind, there have been numerous tornados, death of a mother and her infant....and all sorts of heart breaking difficulties in the last couple of days around us......but in the midst of all of the chaos a subtle reminder yesterday that we were celebrating life, newness a fresh start...it was good to remember not to treat yesterday like every other day...to give pause as to what is important to us. :) I don`t know, it just seemed like a special personal gift...the eggs weren`t supposed to hatch for weeks.

Garden, thanks...I am not looking for any answers at this point from anybody. It will be God that gets through to him if at all..... I agree, therapy would be beneficial, however that takes money and a willing participant .... you cannot make someone see your value, someone who cared enough about their wife and marriage to make the effort. I am a firm believer that my kiddos need both of us, and that we had just better suck it up and act like reasonable adults until we get them raised. Until then, I will try to remember to see him with God`s eyes, to focus on what is good and positive. Maybe it is unfair to judge Christian marriages by mine, and a few others where I have seen the husbands using the scriptures to dominate and subjugate....not that this is the case with me since leaving twi.... I can`t stand to see another woman required to submit because she believes God requires this of her no matter how selfish a bozo her *man* is...I don`t ever want to see that for my daughters....isn`t there something wrong when unbelievers treat their wives and daughters better than many of the christians?

I guess I question the whole biblical concept of women and children...I mean it`s like we are disposable. Our value relies directly on how what we bring to our husband. Old Job was the subject of a bet between God n Satan...he lost his wife and children....he passed the test and got another wife and kids along with the rest of his cattle and riches.... Too bad so sad for the first wife and kids...but hey that was ok Job was blessed...the family was as disposable as the cattle and lands....See what I mean? I just don`t see God as viewing me personally and my children as an asset that can be replaced. That our value solely relating to the husband that we are married to. It seems grossly unfair to someone whom has tried to be a Godly person her entire life. Yet all of that means nothing if the man I married 20 plus years ago blows it in some area or another. I just question how a loving God could be so unfair ...so instead of becoming disolusioned with a God who designed and created me to be inferior, forever to have to submit to anothers will...I will instead challenge my understanding and the validity of particular scriptures. I hope that is ok without being offensive.

How so WG? I admire and respect you and your views. Have I offended you? I question, I search, I try to better understand a loving God and sometimes that is at odds with what I am taught biblicaly. Because I have seen scriptures used to bully and manipulate...maybe I am hyper sensitive to allowing myself or my beautiful intelligent daughters to be placed into servitude because of their gender? Is it me? Am I using my experience to unfairly judge all christian marriages? I don`t know, I have seen good and I have seen bad...the ones that are good never seem to employ the I am the ultimate authority because I am the man. Is my resentment coloring my perception of a Christian marriage? I guess that I feel I don`t fully understand the whole concept or there wouldn`t be the bitterness and resentment of having to live up to and by anothers expectations.

I just know that our so called *christian* marriage taught ala twi has been a nightmare....I don`t know, but I think being programed to expect obedience no matter how hair brained an idea is, or respect no matter how stupid you are acting, because you are smarter, more logical, that because of one woman`s actions in one instance thousands of years ago God requires us to make atonement by needing a man because we are too flighty or irrational really is a recipe for disaster. I am sorry, but I have seen far to many marriages outside of twi as well where the husbands use scriptural justification for being an overpowering bully. Women submit not because they are afraid, not because they like it, not because the husband is smarter...but because they are told that God requires this of a virtuous woman...so they suck it up, they hide who they are, they have their input and ideas ignored and dismissed as unimportant....are required to follow instructions even when acutely aware of how detrimental the actions may impact one...comforting themselves in their misery by telling themselves that God will bless them ..... I am sorry, it really is like being in a mini cult all over again. I just cannot believe that if there is a loving God, that he would deliberately set up a race of beings and design half of them to fail. I know that marriage CAN work...that it is a beautiful thing...that it is vital for the raising of children when it is approached like Garden and Oak described...but I think that is because of the calibur of the people involved... I just don`t want my girls to have to submit to someone ignoring their own instinct and well being because they believe that God requires it.

I suppose there in lies the value of greasespot. We all get to hear the *other* side of the story. It wasn`t JUST us, it wasn`t because we weren`t spiritual enough, or that we left doors open for Satan....etc. For years decades really, wierwille and his leaders managed to keep the ugly dirty little secrets from the general population of twi....convince everyone that the person trying to tell the truth is possessed or lying...after all...who wouldn`t believe the man of God?? All of those years of self doubt, of wondering how we had blown it. Ashamed, pretty sure we weren`t working for Satan, yet that nagging doubt, would we be destroyed for leaving the ministry that had taught us God`s word...would our children die, were we decieved?? Years and years spent waiting for the other shoe to drop....determined to hold fast to what we had been taught so that Satan couldn`t really trick us...never really moving on even after physically leaving. All I can say is thank you GOD and pawtucket for greasespot, as it has given many of us a voice for the first time in decades. We are allowed to think to examine to reason...it is tough, sometimes for me, it almost seems like waking up slowly from some sort of coma that will take time, effort, and a lot of physical therapy to relearn how to function again. Greasespot is my cult brain therapy :)

(((Oak))) as it should be.... WG, I have nothing against marriage either. I am in complete agreement with you as I watch my friends children popping out babies with different fellas every year...I feel sorry for the children and the grandmas that love them.

Ted also wasn`t a kid either, I doubt that he would have put up with what ol vp was dishing out to everyone else. I met him for a weekend once, I was in charge if showing the visiting dignitary around...etc.....he stayed in our home...and have to say that he was a gentleman. I also think that VPW attempted to surround himself with successful people to add an air of legitimacy to himself and his organization. Ex 10 said vpw knew whom, he could get away with stuff and whom he couldn`t. There were people that he never showed his true side to.

Depends, if we are talking ice cream.... chocolate moose tracks :)

I have seen what happens when scripture (religion if you will :) ) is used to dominate and subjugate, it isn`t pretty. I don`t believe that God created women inferior to guys, so that it is necessary for someone to oversee us. I think there are some real bullies out there that would LIKE us to think that....would like us to believe that in order to be spiritual, we have to submit because God requires it no matter how bone headed a spouses decisions are.... Too many years as a wife of having my input ignored, my warnings left unheeded, my insight discounted because of my gender and enduring the resulting consequences to believe that this is a Godly idea or practice.

Love God Love your neighbor on these two commandments rest all of the law. Sounds like submit to hubby is law to me....

I would suggest that this is possibly judean culture of 2000 plus years ago rather than God`s law.. Women now cut their hair, own property, are allowed in worship services...all one time big no nos in biblical cultures. Does anybody know of a culture or people that are successful that practice this?? I know that as long as I was the good little submissive wife, our lives were pure hell. As far as I am concerned we all need one another to keep each other in balance and check...when one has the total authority, it puts another at a disadvantage, it also puts a huge amount of responsibility on the shoulders of the one who feels responsible for the other. I can say this as well, that if you are unfortunate enough to be married to an alcoholic, submission is the LAST thing that they need, and it is dangerous for yourself and the kiddos. It is for this reason alone that though a christian myself, I don`t necessarily want my girls marrying one....a guy that claims authority over them because of his gender. He is going to have to be a lot more spiritually mature than that no matter what label he wears. I hope that my boys are mature enough not to need to feel powerful and dominate another. It is an archaic custom from a bygone era.

I don`t think that most people I know/knew were ever once tempted to groom/manipulate/coerce married partners for sexual trysts...most people I knew were never even remotely tempted to destroy lives on a whim...most people I knew were never tempted to have spittle flying in your face temper tantrums....shrug What is common??? I`d say that ones perversity directly related to how much time one spent in the presence of the founder...

You put educated words to what I have begun to see in my own battles....how one cannot allow their value, their sense of self worth to be determined by another....I have tried to teach my kids....that family members, friends, people at work, may be toxic and difficult...it is so important to see that and not feel responsible for their misery or to see yourself in the distorted mirror of their vision. The way you describe becoming an addict....you have put into words, what I was groping to try to explain....I am going to have my teens/young adults read this whole page. Thanks you guys.

We were taught to run retemories through our minds to silence the screaming inside....you can only think one thought at a time don`tchaknow? Whatever it took to please God and defeat satan...no price was too high...didn`t understand?? Tough toe nails, you just needed to obey till you were spurtchul nuff to discern these things...

I concur with Dooj, newlife. Please be very very careful about how much personal info you give this person. I know that you know that there are some real freaks on the internet. People here in years past have been really messed up by folks claiming to be someone that they weren`t. I would not give them any personal contact info...ok? Posters claiming well meaning intentions that end up still being abusive trouble makers...I have friends that have gone through some seriously scary stuff. You are probably smart enough that you don`t even need me to say this, but if I don`t... I`ll worry...lol