rascal

It wouldn`t suprise me. A few years ago, it was less than 3000 active adults. I have heard of no evidence of outreach being successfull. I am aware that people have been leaving on a regular basis since then. Man, I am pretty sure that we had more people than that in our wave of wows alone in 79.

There is an awfull lot of information that needs to be examined point by point. I am trying to cover way to much ground in a single sitting here. At first glance it all seems outragious and impossible. Each of the things that I mentioned above however, can and have been verified by numerous first person accounts. It would probably be good if you took it issue by issue, I will try to help wherever I can. I think that it is relevent to this thread, because it explains how ces could have gotten in such a mess in the first place. The foundation that it was built upon is shakey and needs to be examined carefully for cracks and flaws. If on examination, you find it to be solid, you then can have confidence in repairing the structural flaws of what has been built upon that foundation.

Thank you tbfg. Sam, what I said in the above post is a hell of a lot to digest at once. Please feel free to ask me details of what particular account that you wish. I know that it seemed good, the word taught was wonderfull, but do you realise that the class was lidted damned near verbatumm from a man who WAS a spiritual giant? See the BG Leanard threads. VP for years searched out teachers that would make what HE wanted to believe ok. He took BG`s class and taught it himself a month later under the name of pfal. Whole sections of bg`s books were lifted and republished in vp`s books.... It has been researched, there was no snow storms when he supposedly got snowed in in tulsa. Our basic foundation seems to have been what was profitable and good. It is why we later dismissed the inconsistancies we would see in leadership and practice. The class was used a s a springboard into what vpw wanted to be ok. There is so much to be learned, it is heartbreaking and sould crushing to realise that people could teach such powerfull scriptures in public and yet be so vilely evil in their personal life. It is a lot to digest. Please feel free to question me closer on any of the above information as it becomes pertinant to you in your quest for what honestly happened.

Hey Sam, I wonder where you got your information concerning churches in membership decline? Yes, absolutely, Life is good, families prosper, God`s blessings abounds in our lives. What could possibly bother you about that? Does it make you mad to see God`s hand of blessing working outside of the parameters that you have defined? Why would God`s blessing upon people be a sign of folks being asleep? It is my experience that churches are bursting at the seems ... having to split and start new chapters left and right. There is every flavor for whatever suits your need. There are groups that focus on singles, groups that focus on families, couples, older folks. There are bible study groups...outreach groups...homebound peoples outreach...The spirit of God is abounding, as they work with one another assisting each other on their journey in their spiritual growth Is it wrong because it isn`t your path? Who are you to decide? Have you been out in your community and actually met folks instead of listening to what someone else SAYS about them ...it might suprise you.

Well what particualarly would you like to hear about? The face meltings, the children that were treated visciously in the family corpes? The ones that were raped on the field by twi leadership? The teenaged girls that were drugged and raped on the motor coach? The forced abortions? The savaging of character and accusations of possession when they thought a woman might tell so that no one would listen to her? The men and women who were driven to suicide? Do you want to know about vpw exclusively or would you like LCM`s antics as well? There was a thread, you can do a search here about suicide in the way that covered a lot of this. There is a thread about forced abortions, there is also a thread anout child abuse in the way. There is also a web sight called messiah 7 that contains many similar stories. I can give you a blow by blow description here, but it would be redundant and the stories related in these folks own words are so much more powerfull than I can relate second hand. I know many of the people who related their experiences, some are my own. Sam, it was rotten all the way up to vpw. I am so sorry to have to tell you that. It will be a very difficult read to discover what these men did to our dear brothers and sisters in Christ. You would not have seen these things unless you were close to the inner circle, the *enlightened ones*...those deemed spiritually mature enough to handle the drugs and sex. You know, all things being lawfull to them which are in Christ..etc There were whole teachings about how it was a womans duty to serve a man of God, married or not ..meet his needs in every form, so that he could better serve the body of Christ. There were teachings about why it was necessary to abort our childen, there were teachings about why it was ok to destroy a persons credibility when it came to protecting a man of God`s reputation. It will sicken you to read what these men did, these men we trusted to be honorable and as pure in heart as we were. I do not believe that we can trust men such as these, or their take on the scriptures. Sure God worked, in spite of the evil, just like he does in mormon, catholic, baptist, methodist, whatever lable you pin on yourself. It would seem that he works within whatever parameters we allow. I believe that he worked in our lives in SPITE of what happened in twi.

Shellon, the originator of the thread was trying to make the point that it wasn`t really an honest obituary, but more of a promo for twi.....shrug One would think that you could say nice things about someone in their obituary without making it an info mercial.

Vickles, I was actually thinking the same thing, but didn`t have the nerve to say it.

Lol DMiller! International outreach at Greasespot !!!

That would be really cool. I`d like to be mistaken in this instance.

Sigh, I guess that I feel that in being silent, it smacks of a lack of confidence in the supporters of ces. ...of their compassion, their understanding and seriously underestimating the value of the prayers that could be generated if folks knew how dire the situation currently is.

It isn`t that I want to *kick em when they are down* or point my finger with derision at their efforts....sigh I just wish that they had the confidence in their supporters and their doctrine to be honest about what is going on. I think to be open would be a step in healing and growth. This hiding the problems and presenting a false front to the group is not going to aid in the growth or healing, nor help address the issues that have led them to this current crisis.

Husband got the newest magazine, I was really dissapointed that there is no mention, other than a paragragh stating change of officers, of the current crisis in ces. I have to wonder, if the people in charge really believed in the power of prayer, why they couldn`t be honest and tell folks ...*hey we have troubles, friends, we need your prayers* No, they hide it, pretend like everything is hunky dory, business as usual, nothing to see HERE folks....sigh I guess that I had hoped that if these folks were determined to be on the mend, that they could be open and honest with the people who trust and support them. I believe that the love and prayers of thousands of people would do wonders, if it were honestly shared how desperate the situation is. Instead, it is the same old *lockbox* crap that took twi down. It reminds me of when wierwille was dying...there was no request or prayer, no confidence in the people who cared. It was business as usual, pretend nothing is happening....all a big hush hush secret...don`t tell any of the peons....they can`t handle it.... untill you could get them all together to read a paragragh and send them home without allowing them to ask questions. It smacks of the same lack of respect for the regular folks, you know, they aren`t *spiritual* enough to handle the truth. I think folks deserve to know what is going on in order to hold the board accountable. I think that it is insulting to good folks to pretend that everything is just fine. It is the same as twi, all smoke and mirrors, protect the organization, even if people must be sacrificed along the way.

Agreed Excathdra, I see the parallells. It is all about being alone and vulnerable with someone that you should have been able to safely trust. It is about discovering that the person who you trusted is a monster, it is about using your position and power to hurt. Maybe this resonates so deeply with me because my ob decided to be an nasty arse (he had a waiting room full of patients and I had chosen an inconvenient time to have the child of course) when he rushed in at the last miniute to deliver my first born. It was terrifying, to have the man in charge of my life angry and unneccessarily rough (my arm blackened from wrist to elbow with the roughness in which he inserted an unneccessary iv no medicine just the needle ... AS my child was crowning) it destroyed what should have been the most special day of our lives, the welcoming of our precious daughter. It was bad enough that when the hospital gave me a courtesy call six weeks later and I gave them an honest acount of how frightening and dissapointing my experience had been.....they called me back a day later and apologised profusely, and insisted that we forget about the 500 dollar deductable that we still owed them. I guess my story checked out and they were afraid I would sue. What that Dr. did to that woman was criminal, that she did it when the poor woman was at her most vulnerable, cruel. I dearly wish that she had been prosecuted.

No Estimated Prophet, I wasn`t baiting you. Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I seriously wanted to know what you thought was made up. Sometimes when we are uncomfortable with the truth of a situation ... I have noticed that we have a tendency to discount the information by branding the bearer as a liar. I wondered exactly what you thought was made up. It would give us a chance to examine the information and determine if the person who presented it was an actual liar. Either somebody lied A, or B, you simply didn`t like the information presented. I seriously wanted to know which was the case in which post that you were referring to. The example you sighted, I cannot tell out of context which part, or to whom it is referring, that you have an issue with. I cannot say that I agree or disagree with you there....I will have to go back and read in context.

Pretty psycho to take that moment of vulnerability to *punish* someone. If she didn`t feel that she could be *good* to someone outside of the household, she had no damned business accepting the patient in the first place. How horrifying to realise at that moment, in active labor, when you are trapped and cannot leave.... that the person in whom you must place the trust for your life and that of your child, really doesn`t like or care about you. That is really frightening. Makes you wonder if the doc hadn`t been saving that particular little gem for just such an occasion. Cat I am glad that you were there.

((((QT)))) What they did was ignorant and inexcusable. Thank God you are strong, you didn`t buy into that crap, you didn`t throw your wonderfull son away. You have my deepest respect girl....You know that they HAD to blame you right??? Else they would have had to start questioning their hard fast *truths* their universe would have started to unravel...it HAD to be your fault. My nephew is autistic, though highly functioning. My dear friends son is autistic. To imagine those wonderfull imaginative little souls within the confines of twi is horrible. What is amazing is how much they are learning about this now, ways of understanding and connecting that can help these guys. It is amazing what can be accomplished when one is educated. Devistating when one lacks the capacity to understand ...ie the kid is posessed or needs deliverance.... QT, I hope that you decide not to remove your post. It speaks eloquently of the ignorance and down right evil that is at the very heart of twi`s understanding and teachings concerning people. Maggie M, I am glad that you were free to seek the path that would help your child, I doubt that would have been the case had you remained in twi.

So the people that were destroyed didn`t have God there with them? He some how didn`t care enough to see them through... When you make statements like *God will sort it all out* it means that those whom ended up in a mental hospital or dead some how just don`t matter. I read some about this momentus, an article from a lady who actually ran and promoted their damned classes for a while. She put it very well...people who have really hurt folks, people like ex twi leadership embrace it heartilly because in having everyone blame themselves...it absolves the leaders of their guilt, their need to seek forgivness and make restitution where possible to the people they have wounded or destroyed. This is in direct contradiction to what the scriptures tell us to do concerning a brother that has been wronged. Of COURSE these guys love it ....it lets them off the hook, just like in twi ....they don`t have to care about those whom they owe an apology and restitution to. Their sheet don`t steenk, it is always someone elses fault. For heavens sakes, this woman was one of the young girls that had been drugged and raped....and the momentus trainers said that it was her fault that this happened to her and that she needed to take responsibility. That isn`t what the scriptures say to do about these false ministers, these wolves who ravaged and devoured the flocks they were responsible for.... I can see why it would appeal to some.

Invented bad things to say about people that God loves??? Where? When? Who?

That is SO sick, so evil and cruel. Every time I hear these stories, I get upset. I have to ask these morons....Do they have no recollection of what Jesus did when people were ill???? Geeeeze I don`t remember him condemning, I don`t remember him yelling, he healed them. I am just ill thinking about people at their very lowest point, the fear, the pain, the devistation....when they needed the comfort of God the most, the love and support of their bretheren to give them peace during this the most terrifying of times when you ar e staring death in the face....That sole comfort, the peace that should have been theirs in relying on a loving God to be there to hold their hand come what may....was STOLEN from them... They couldn`t go to God, because it was their own fault, they had blown it....he couldn`t help them according to twi rules... I can only imagine the horror of feeling not only the family turning their back on you, the condemnation and shame of not being able to believe or correct the sin that allowed them to be ill....but to feel like God himself had turned his back on them because of something they had done. Evil perverted bastards to deny that comfort to an ill or dying person. Of ALL of the things stolen from us by these wolves, these liars in God`s name, I feel this was the most visciously destructive.

I don`t know if I believe that LCM COULD get someone born again of God` spirit or not. I mean, his fruit brands him as *of the flesh* and *with no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven*....in direct contradiction of what his lips were spouting. I think that it is like so many have pointed out....they had to invent a need for their product. They had to make it some how one of a kind special....They had to recruit enthusiastic sellers to market their product. We got sucked into amway because of a former boss years ago...like in twi, there was a lot of hoopla, a lot of hype and promises...in the end, we never saw any of the promised profits.

Amen Joe Pascha! No matter how much we like these guys or how noble their intentions are, that doesn`t make them right or healthy.

Carribousam, might I respectfully suggest that you might be unaware of the evil precedeing the mid 80s? You would have to I guess in order to believe that twi was healthy before that. I was there, I have friends that were there. We had horrible things done to us in the name of God. There are a lot of folks who assume that because they didn`t see the depravity that later engulfed the ministry early that it was non existant. It was there, just a better kept secret is all.

Seems to me that if all of this prophesy stuff was genuine, the *prophets* would have seen all of the hurt that was going to be inflicted. I guess even if I believed that prophesy was being praticed, I`d have to hazard a guess from the fruit exhibited, that it would have to be considered not genuine. I mean how many times have we seen that people will have a personal dislike of a person or a situation and assigne *spiritual* motives to their purely personal discomfort or dislike. I have seen it in many groups.

As bitter as you believe that we here at greasespot are....I can guarandamntee that there is nobody else on this planet that can really understand what is going on with you folks, much less sympathise. Many times what you read as poisonous spew here, really may be nothing more than a challenge for you to critically view your thought processes. It seems like you have to some how brand us as evil or unspiritual in order to to be able to conveniently dismiss that which is too difficult to consider and flee back to your comfort zone. Believe it or not, most folks here care.

Basic foundation for me....what I mean by raze it to the ground......... Decide number one if I even believe there is a God. Second brick in that foundation is ..... can you handle *love God and Love your neighbor*? Begin the building process from there. You don`t need any formulas or principles or classes, or research, or leaders, or ministry to *get it* Start with that basic premiss as your *rock* and go from there. It won`t matter then whether there were two crucified or four, or what administration we are in or if there is a trinity or not, which body of believers that we fellowship with. When you know nothing, God can teach you through everybody. Some if you will, would go to the rubble of the demolished building and start digging out the bricks, one by one and knocking off the mortar, testing them for soundness and reuse some of their old building material. That can be somewhat limiting in the supplies that you will have available and the quality of what you build. Heck for me it was easier and faster to just to order new bricks and started all over again. Anyway, for what it is worth, when I got rid of the arrogance of thinking that I knew it all and realised instead, that I actually knew absolutely nothing.....that was when God started working significantly in my life again. That was when the foot came of the hose after over a decade of frustration from lack of results.. Bliss you are correct...it all depends on what folks mean by *baby*