rascal

I lived it too. It was difficult to hold it together under twi conditions. Our personalities, our likes and dislikes, didn`t matter so much when twi rules were what we subjected ourselves to. Once out, it made a huge difference. He was practical, frugal, and a health nut, I was an animal lover/rescuer, junk food junkie. He was a drinker, I was a tea totaller... I never lived up to his standards of what was important, he never allowed me to be who I really was....shrug It has been heartbreakingly difficult through the years to find a middle ground that both can live with....sigh you are always left wondering what might have been had you married a more compatible person, rather than the one that was acceptible according to the twi criteria. I think that we both would have made excellent spouses ...to other people.

(((((Dot))))) Sacrificed on the alter of twi...what an appropriate description of what we did. Would it bother you if some of the rest of us identified the victims of our personal sacrifice, and laid them along side of your husband? I wonder if this isn`t an idea for a seperate thread.

I also wonder about Harry`s parents, his grandparents, his aunts uncles and cousins. The grandparents were both alive while his Dad was in school and afterwards because Serius was always welcome to sunday dinner at the potters (sr.) So in the brief time between them leaving school and their death, not more than a few years....you have the death of both grandparents, at what seems a young age, and while we are at it, serius` horrible mom died too. Ron doesn`t seem to have a grandparents. Maybe there just isn`t any room for all of the details....but it seems like there are a whole generation of folks that died early.

I don`t know about Trevor, but I have been thinking about Nevel. You know how great trauma affects the wizards powers, like merope being intimidated by her father, and when Tonks love was unrequitted etc. I wonder if the trauma of his parents being insane and living with his Gran that intimidates him so, hasn`t been draining him of his natural abilities. That and he was required to use his Dad`s wand for sentimental reasons...Didn`t Olivander make a big deal about the wand needing to chose the wizard? Maybe he isn`t such a blundering, accident prone screw up. Maybe now that he has his own wand, and his confidence is growing, we will see something extraordinary about him.

I agree mr p mosh....one of the greatest travesties of twi is how many people it has driven away from God. free and Bolshevik maybe it is just in our little country church, but the methodist church my kiddoes attend in the county are pretty decent. They have never treated us badly on issues that we disagree on, which are suprisingly few. They focus on loving God and taking care of folks. My kids love it there. Each person is treasured, each feels themselves a work in progress. What I am saying is....don`t give up on churches, I have found spiritual folks that have had a big impact on my life in different religions. TWi bred an arrogance in it`s practitioners, sometimes we have to just get over ourselves, in order to see and appreciate the value of what other Christians have to offer.

Guess I have trouble believing any of it any more. I mean if God is as all knowing and powerfull as he is purported to be.....why would he lead ALL of us to a group of men who he knew would rape some of us, knew would cause some of us to die, knew would destroy some of our lives in order that some others of us could come to a knowledge of him? That is a pretty ugly accusation to lay at the feet of someone who purportedly loves us and desires for us to know him better. It would certainly seem to negate the parable concerning the value of the single lost sheep.

I agree EP, what might be legally advisable is not necessarily spiritually wholesome.

E.P. I have a question for you to consider. Pleas believe me when I say that I do not want to offend you unnecessarily. You mentioned the *Christ like nature of vp* ...have you ever considered that given his proclivity to rampant adultery, the drunkeness, the lying, the stealing, the rape, the strife, the anger, the sulleness, the envyings...in short everything Galatians describes as a *man of the flesh who has no inheritance in the kingdom of God*? I mean, I ask what exactly in vpw`s life would indicate that he WASN`T a false prophet, a wolf in sheeps clothing, the man of the flesh that galatians warned us about? I mean yeah, he taught scripture, but so did Jim Jones and David Koresche. I mean I am wondering if you are giving him respect as a brother in Christ which he is not due...and applying a standard that is not applicable to those whom deliberately harm God`s people. It is a lot to consider, but it might make sense when you think about how when Jesus told his desciples that they would recognise one another by their *fruit* There must have been more to it than what lable you placed on your chest or how many scriptures that one could quote. I just do not see how a loving God could have led us to a place where we would learn some knowledge, but some of us were going to be raped and others murdered as part of the price paid for the rest to recieve the knowledge. It would make sense though if we had been decieved, if we had fallen into a snare that had been cleverly disguised such as is described in proverbs. The fact that the ministry imploded, and the offshoots are struggling with people still being hurt and disgarded might be an indication that the foundation that we built based on the teachings and scriptures we learned in twi might be considered a shaky foundation, not of rock, but on sand....a foundation that appears to have been crumbling, thus rendering the structures built upon them unsound as well. Shrug, just a possible point to consider.

That is fair enough EP. Sometimes it is hard to read and understand one another in this type of forum. What bothered me about what you said was that the damage was minimal. Surely you are aware that some of the folks that are reading you here, were victims of being drugged and raped by vp and his leaders? There are people reading this thread who were forced to have abortions in order to stay within the will of God, that there are several of us who had friends that were grievously injured and some of them died while following orders from twi leaders? I am sorry that you were grievously hurt as well. It is hardly *minimal damage* to those whom suffered these things. It still is as painfully vivid today as it was 25 years ago when it happened. I think that was the statement that I had a problem with. To minimalise the horror suffered, is to dismiss the evil....it makes it sound like the people who died, the pain that we suffered, the children lost do not matter, are unimportant. To me, and you may correct me if I am mistaken ep, but when someone (not you but twi leaders) minimalises the horror and evil that was inflicted on trusting souls, the people that were in their care as ministers...it is usually an attempt to minimalise ones guilt and assuage one own conscience. To me, it conveniently dismisses the need to repent and seek the forgivness of the brother that has been wronged. To me, the people who would deliberatly harm our innocent brothers and sisters in Christ to satisfy the lusts of their flesh....are despicable. I detest them for their betrayal of our pure hearts and selfless service to God. Their abuse of trusting souls, of women, of children, angers me greatly. That they took what we willingly gave in service to God and used it for evil and to cause great harm. I do not understand not being angry at people who chose to be so vile. Estimated Prophet, can you see how the people who used their positions of power and authority to steal from and cause harm to God`s people would to me seem to be no better than the Pharisees that Jesus so detested? He called them *whited sepelchers* pretty on the outside but filled with decay and disease on the inside? He said Woe unto them...I never once read of him asking people to forgive and be nice to them. Can you see why it would be hard for me to have any respect for the enormous harm that the religious leaders in our time did to so many trusting souls? Why was it all right for Jesus to condemn the leaders who hurt God`s people back then and not right for us to hold the same contempt for the evil ones who came to *steal, kill, and destroy* from people seeking God in this day and age? It just simply cannot be considered *minimal* ...nothing can be considered worth it.... The verse comes to mind about the shepherd leaving the 99 sheep to hunt and rescue the single lost. In the parable, he didn`t weigh in the balances and decide if it was worth it to leave the other 99.....the single lost sheep was worth the supreme sacrafice. I am glad that you are willing to dialogue with us here E.P. there is much that can be learned from one another, as I believe each here has learned a great deal in their hourny since leaving twi.

(((Ex)))

Yup, I guess it can be considered minimal as long as it wasn`t his heart shattered or life that was ravaged and destroyed...sigh :(

Safari vista, I personally knew of two different cases where women were thrown out of twi for homosexuality. It wasn`t just the guys. One was a mother of multiple children, one later married and had children. Neither woman ever were even tempted by the same sex. It is funny, they rabidly accused and denounced innocent people whil allowing folks like Janet M and her special friend and Donna to remain. It was just an ugly thing to do to people whom didn`t sufficiently bow and scrape to the mog.

I`ll bet if it had been a police dog attacked, the officers would have reacted differently. They should have done what was right. I wonder what would have happened if one of the civilians had shot the dogs.

Well said newbie!

Well....yeah, but wasn`t that Jesus? Do you not think he may have had a bit more on the ball then the people that we are discussing in these groups, as I think is evidenced in the widely differing impact of their actions? I have to wonder if these folks, placing themselves on par with Jesus, isn`t what has been wrong with twi/ces/momentus all along.

Great post socks, I`ll vbet you made that other motorists day, who knows, maybe they will do it for someone else. Where we live, the smile and the nod is the general rule. Course we live in a smaller area where life is less hectic paced. If you have car trouble, you can count on the next motorist to stop and give aid. Everyone waves and smiles to the car in oncoming traffic. I remember once somebody visiting our area got very upset at these people whom he didn`t know constantly waving at him....lol very suspiscious behavior...lol

Amen Bolshevik. I am sorry, for it is such a waste. I think though, that you will be stronger for what you have endured. Your parents are not mentally healthy. They are entirely dependant upon everyone else to make their choices. They are not free to love or support you, to chose what is right. They are required to ignore every basic parenting instinct. They are crippled in so many ways. I speak this as an adult who began raising our children the first few years when we were still involved in twi...I know and understand the pressures that were exerted to mold your parents into the cold unfeeling automatons that twi requires. I understand sacrificing the children on the altar of leaderships requirements. On the upside (at least this is what I try to focus on) .... I was once told that we get two shots in life with family. The one that we are born into, and the one that we create for ourselves as adults. Since we were screwed out of the childhood and parents that we deserved as children...the only option that we have left is to be damned good parents ourselves and make sure that our kiddoes are our priority and safe from the damage that was inflicted upon us. There is quiet peace, dignity and contentment to be found in that.

OK, guys, I just had a thought....(please bear with me...lol) Could it be that these folks who don`t bother with getting the credentials or qualifications are just basically lazy? Could that laziness be a symptom that manifests itself in their ministries and self help groups? Is this why the results are so mixed, why the people whom are adversly affected by their groups are considered inconsequential? Could it be that the attitude towards getting properly qualified is also seen in their lack of responsibility and accountability to the folks they claim to be benefitting?

Our german shepherd *kirby* was with my young children while walking on a hill behind our house years ago. She darted in front of them suddenly and attacked a rattle snake that had been sunning itself on the trail that the kids were getting ready to walk on. Words cannot describe the dog who traveled with me during my ministry days, she was my only friend and family for many many years. No she never physically saved me from danger, but she was my angel that guided me through those difficult times.

*some people may never get to the point of healing* I suppose you can put old vp in that catagory. I think that there is more to it than what we *will* aka believe to happen.

I agree with you friscoguy about trust lost, about confidence in God shaken. Many of us never recover our child like faith after the cruelty endured in twi, and now folks will have to start all over again in ces. I have to say though.....I don`t know if I really believe that lcm or vpw and others will be *with us for eternitity. I wonder if there might be a few *depart for I knew you not* s in store for some of us in twi who assume that our knowledge of formulas and scriptures equals knowing Jesus. If I am mistaken when the time comes, I guess the universe will be a big place....lol undoubtedly I can find a quiet corner to avoid unpleasantries.

Cool, thanks for understanding undone, I wasn`t meaning just you in particular. Gosh, I don`t want EP to feel picked on either. It probably feels that way, but it really isn`t personal. I have been reading wolf and these other folks for quite some time. The information presented can feel overwhelming, like an attack, but it isn`t an attack of the person, it is of ideas and thought patterns that sometime we don`t even realise are affecting our judgement. I thought that if EP could re read what wolf and some of these folks have written without being so angry, he/she might be able to consider the merit of the information that was being presented. I know, it is damned hard to have to come to grips with what really happened in twi. I am sure that if EP and others were aware of what happened to so many of us directly at vp/lcm/leaders hands in twi, they would no doubt understand the outrage we personally feel when the carnage is blythly referred to as being *minimal*.

You are a lot nicer person than me tbftg..... I figure each one of us wakes up each day and decides what kind of person they are going to be. Each one of us decides if we are going to be kind and helpfull or cause pain and heartache. That people chose to be evil makes me despise them.....They could as easily choose to be a blessing. It reminds me of the differences listed in galatians between those of the flesh and those of the spirit. I hvae no respect for those who chose to act as if they are *of the flesh* with *no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven* I am sorry, I just don`t have any respect for them.

Estimated Prophet, What is it about wolfs post that offends you precisely? The fact that John Lynn is too good to address me here, that we are considered perpetually whining victims or back biters and hard hearted frankly, offends me too. As far as what happened in twi as *minimal evil* that is extremely offensive when people litterally lost their lives. Please re read the post, I think you may have misjudged and charged him falsely. Wolf makes some excellent points if you can read him without becoming irrationally angry. I think that there are some salient points to consider if you can set aside your frustration long enough to consider friend. In your address to sprawled out...do you think that vpw was not a liar and thief? You must not have known him very well. Can you set aside his public persona ...the face that he wanted everyone to see and honestly view what he was in his private life? I take it from your post that you were never personally close and are unaware of much of what he did. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey undone, why are you offended with folks here? Is it because we talk about what these people did to us? It sometimes feels like folks get more angry at us for telling what happened than the perpetrators who assaulted us. I don`t understand why the people who merely report the abuse are treated with such venom and and accusations, while love and respect are reserved for the perpetrators of the evil....sigh Your mad at the wrong guys people.

Interesting EP, I always wondered what the leonards thought about vp/twi. I`d say though, that I believe that the problems began with vp long before that. I`ll bet they didn`t know that vp was thrown out of the church he pastored for sexual improprieties. From all accounts he was immoral from the very beginning. His research and quest to me seemed geared more towards finding scriptural and doctrinal support for doing what he damned well pleased...shrug