rascal

I was never a southern belle..never that classy...lol Naw, my folks were northerners, I was army brass, I did spend part of my growing years in the south though. We settled in Tenn after twi.

Wooohooo glad that it is going to be a big book. It will be hard to read, knowing that it is the very last book....sigh

Well if we wanted a woman in the white house...what about Condolisa Rice (sp?)? She seems like a class act and strong.

Thankyou Sunesis. He has indeed.

Frankly, I don`t understand the need for *leaders* fit or otherwise...shrug

I don`t suppose the people who want the secrets kept/can`t bear to hear the truth will believe or understand our motives ever. It is a lot easier to villify the person who speaks up, than to come to grips with the disturbing implications of the truth.

That is an excellent point about partnership John. That is what has kept us together as well. In our case, raising our children together is a partnership that has always been of the utmost importance to both of us. As you said, personal feelings may fluctuate, but the companionship/partnership is forever. That was well said. Nashville eh? I live close, too bad you didn`t give a shout, we could have had lunch together....lol

Nicely said Tzaia. I sometimes wonder if it is possible to live and understand *my grace is sufficient for thee* (one of my favorite axioms to strive for) while participating in groups like this. Our spiritualitity and relationships were always preformance based.

((((Excathedra)))) of course you are worthy, as is your testimony.

That is a shame Free, I am sorry about that. What I found made life unfair at the factory where I was making really good money was when it came time to apply for medical and dental benefits for a family of 9. They couldn`t find enough reasons to get rid of me soon enough. For some reason when other people I knew started using their insurance a lot, the company soon found reasons for them to be fired as well. I`d say big families are discriminated against as well.

Free, I don`t know anything about the corporate pay rate for women. I know that in the factory I worked at and at the restaurant I work at now, women have come a long way. The pay rate/promotion rate seems to be scrupulously fair. I think people are afraid of being sued. My daughter was made shift manager and they cannot get her into management fast enough. She is replacing a man who wasn`t doing a very good job. I don`t know if our experience is the norm or not. As far as the man having *authority* over the woman in marriage...it certainly didn`t work well in ours. We did things like that for a decade...and it went to he ll. *Submitting one to another* like it says in ephesians is more our style and has worked well Sometimes he needs his bu tt kicked, sometimes I need mine...shrug ...I`d say that we are equal opportunity screw ups...lol Sometimes he is smarter in a given area, sometimes I am....either one of us can display flashes of brilliance when we recognise that in one another. Isn`t that is how a partnership works?

Jean you don`t know how glad that I am to hear that you and your daughter are treated well. I have no beef with you, and extend a hearty welcome you here to grease spot. I don`t know if you are being intentionally rude or not. My marriage has always been a work in progress while recovering from twi ...shrug....I don`t know it all by a long shot....never claimed to. Most of us here are sharing, learning and growing from our mistakes and experiences. John, I don`t know why you have your nose into my marriage, but since it obviously interests you so...of COURSE my spouse knows what I say here. He has been traveling this road with me for 20 years for heavens sakes...lol He looks in here when he cares to, most of the time he trusts me to relate things honestly where and when appropriate. If I am talking about it here, generally we are living it, usually learning and overcoming lifes challenges together and moving on...shrug

OK..... Mrs Hunt was 86 years old when this happened. She was out feeding her horses when she slipped and got mired.....she couldn`t get back to her feet so she crawled and rolled up the rocky hill to her barn, shredding her knees and hands....she rolled and crawled and wormed her way to the house and dragged herself up the stairs...across the porch and through the door. She collapsed and could not move once in the house....she heated with wood, and within hours in the 5 degree weather the house was cold. At some point she had a heart attack and faded in and out of consciouness for 3 days as she lay on the freezing floor. My friend found her 3 days later on the floor unconcious....the only thing that had saved this woman was her ancient corgy had been laying on her back for three days to keep her warm. Mrs. Hunt made a full recovery eventually, she was in hospitals and nursing homes for almost 6 months untill she regained her strength and mobility. She would have died within hours the first day if her little dog muffy hadn`t laid on her sharing body heat, preventing loss.... There was another dog there, bagel who just cowered and hid the whole time.

Lol, John come on, you did too. I understand if you have changed your position, but PLEASE don`t say that you never advocated the smacking of a woman when they became annoying. You offended a lot of people that week. Are you embarrassed that your wife knows what you think here? Does it bother you that she read how you treat others? I am not playing victim OR socio path here....Who is the one acting negative/ugly? I am truly glad that she posted, I have honestly wondered through the years if she was ok, given some of your comments. I hope that she comes back, she might even learn a thing or two.

I understand, I know that we were taught this in twi....I at one time even believed this myself, that if I irritated my spouse to the point of getting hit, it was my fault for not shutting up when I should have. I believed many of the things that John has put forth in these forums when I was in twi. I have since changed my pov. That is probably why I am so irritating.

Not in the instances that I listed. I guess that is why I took him at his word this time. When confronted about hitting a woman, he likened it to smacking at an annoying mosquito. A guy can only stand to be annoyed for so long, you know.... There were several pages on the thread where he defended himself and his position.

Well Jean, he may treat you well, but John has a tendency to be a real booger to girls here. He has advocated smacking women around because they don`t know when to shut up. He has in the past accused the women who posted here of abuse in twi of lying. He has a history of demonstrated disdain of women and a denigration of their difficulties in his posts. For heavens sake, he once called me a pig making farting noises and demanding that I go back to my family that had to put up with me when trying to post here...shrug Maybe he has changed his positions on some of these issues, I guess we all do. I hope so anyway. I have always wondered about you, hoping that he treated the women of his family with more kindness and respect than he has chosen to demonstrate to his sisters in Christ here. Great to hear from you and see the *other* side.

It is astounding in hind sight the intense fear, the debilitating shame that was used to manipulate us as if it was from God. When I think about the tender gentle way in which I have been delt with since, I feel within the depths of my being that the ministry leaders didn`t know God period. I think that the source of their power and inspiration came from somewhere else entirely.

I remember it was pressure for a long time, intense pressure to be *spiritual*. If you didn`t come to every twig, every class, bring new people, you were talked about as unspiritual. Then one day the lc come to our way home and went into my room and found a parakeet that I was rehabilitating from the pet shop I worked at. It was my first face melting. I was screamed at by an ex jock 3 times my size. He bellowed and roared the most shamefull things....how my heart wasn`t to be corpes, that I was spiritually asleep, yadda yadda... It was terrifying, it seemed to go on for ever, that huge man in my tiny room...when he was done, I was jut so much jelly, I would have done anything to redeem myself and avoid the venom, the disgust that I assumed was per God. I was completely broken that God considered me a loser. I meekly asked if the leader thought God could teach me what I needed to know and help me with my heart if I took another app years and went wow. Well, he deflated a bit and conceded that there might be some hope for me yet. The rest of my time in twi, I was damned determined that I wouldn`t dissapoint God, or incur his/a leaders wrath ever again. There wasn`t anything that I wouldn`t and didn`t do when told that God required it.

As long as you are sure Dot, I do not want to intrude on your grief. Your post and thread has struck a chord with me. How could we allow ourselves to be persuaded that it was necessary to allow these things in the name of God???? OK....I laid the life of my unborn child in sacrifice on twi`s alter of blood. I too was terrified, I too was deathly afraid of living without God or his protection, as I was told would be the consequence if I didn`t heed my leaderships *councel*. When I had done the unthinkable, when I had proven my commitment/honored my vow to God, did what was necessary to remain in the program.......... I am ashamed to say that I was intensely relieved that I was going to be allowed to remain in the household and continue in good standing, that I was safe. Damned right it was fear. Somehow, I just don`t think God was rejoicing that day.

Well, yeah women wanted to get married because we were told that was the only way we could serve God. We had to serve a man of God , so that he in turn could serve the body of Christ. There simply was no other viable option in that ministry.

I once found a journal from my spouses bachelor days.....where he had logically written down qualifications to evaluate whether I measured up as a prospective corpes wife... I mean you know, it was listed...I had had most of the classes offered, I had two completed wow years, Advanced class grad....app corpes...etc It struck me as so cold, so very calculated....but then, isn`t that how most of us really were? Our spirituality, our worth was judged by how many classes/programs/years standing we accrued. Not much to build a future together on. It all seems so insane in hind sight. There was nothing about love or like interests, as long as you were sufficiently committed, all the rest was inconsequential. I fully believed the *any two believers can make a marriage work* It may be true, but it certainly does not mean that it will be a happy life.

Trust me qt, he IS serious, and he has proudly declared much much worse through the years... Damn it, if we`d just learn our place, the world would be a better place.

Krys, it isn`t God that I doubt. I mistrust twi. I mistrust any understanding of God or spirituality aquired there....I don`t believe that a loving God would have lured us there to learn.......not if it meant that some of us were to die so that others could benefit. I can however see a case being made for it being a cleverly laid snare. *For in vain is the snare set in sight of the bird* from proverbs comes to mind. Disguise the trap with enough scriptures, prayers activities and we enter willingly assuming that it is a spiritually wholesome, God centered group.... It is the only thing that makes sense to me.

EXCELLENT point Groucho. I almost feel as if the organization interferes with a personal relationship with God. If it`s anything like twi, I allowed them to do the work, to take the place so to speak. I know that I freaked when leaving because I didn`t have anybody to tell me where God needed me of what he required me to do....I didn`t have anybody to tell me if I was off track. All I know is that it took being very isolated sans formulas and personalities before I started the difficult journey of building a personal relationship and undertsanding. I look back and realise that it is something that I never had, no matter how hard I strived to attain this during the years of working so hard in twi. It wasn`t through a lack of genuine heartfelt effort. I did everything recomended, took every class enrolled in every program to be well pleasing to God and on the front lines spiritually....sigh... It never felt right. Do you guys ever think that we fought so hard for twi and now for ces is because we NEED it to be right? We will over look almost anything, find ways to justify the inexcusable simply because we cannot come to grips with the humbling knowledge that we were mistaken? That it was all a waste? The most difficult decision in my life was when I realised that everything I had ever been taught to believe about God was probably a lie.....that I was going to have to start all over again....sigh