rascal

Sam, I don`t know if you were referring to vp in your comment about instant news and gossip....but if you were ... there are folks here that DID know vp personally. It wasn`t pretty, and his evil wasn`t exaggerated. It wasn`t an occasional slip of an otherwise decent man. His selfishness and bad behavior were noted from an early age. Wow listener, you saw it first hand....I have to agree with your assessment. I have talked with more than one person who knew him from his days in high school and as a minister. It would seem that he NEVER believed that rules were for him. He always was looking for ways to make what he wanted to do *ok*. He was always doing crazy things to get attention... I think that was what sent him off on biblical research...he wanted it to be ok to screw like bunnies, smoke like a chimney , and drink like a fish because *all things were lawfull to them which are in Christ* Well I think the wide swath of destruction he cut through peoples lives...the trail littered with broken souls and dead bodies.... leaves no doubt that he was mistaken and that there are reasons we are told to not commit adultery, to remain sober, to love one another....etc

Wow yidontgo, that is really tough. My spouse and I were married a couple months after you guys. That is a long time with a lot of history. You seem very kind to make this not only easier for her, but to go so far as to make her laugh.

Congratulations Free! Kathy, I might disagree with your assessments as to why people wouldn`t vote for hillary or obama. Gender and race seem to play very little part in most of todays opinions, at least as far as I can tell. A lot of folks actually do their homework to find out what peoples voting records are, what their core values are in order to see what is behind the pretty exterior and personable speeches, and chose what they believe is best for the country, rather than who might appeal to us personally. It wouldn`t be gender that prevents her attaining the white house. I hope that we are getting a little more sophisticated in how we base our decisions that affect our country.

We could start a why I hate John or rascal really is a doody head thread, we could take this private, any of which is more appropriate than to continue to make this particular thread personal. Forum ettiquette and all of that you know? Nothing personal, but I am putting you two on ignore in order for me to avoid the temptation to continue in a de rail.

This is an awsome forum for presenting ones point of view, with the freedom also to disagree...shrug. Some folks cannot handle that and view that as a personal attack. Generally if you are respectfull though, that is how you are treated. If you want to address any more personal issues, how about we to address those in private as I do not want to once again derail this otherwise excellent thread. You make some excellent points. You and I ought to both contain our comments to the topic at hand.

I thought this was an awsome point Kathy, but just now figured out how to do the *quote* thingee. That was a lesson I have had to learn the hard way since leaving twi and having to break out of the mold that was designed for us as women. lmao hamm, you sir are brilliant!

Jean, don`t tell me what to do, or whom to address. John is a big boy and earns the flack that he recieves. What transpires between us is between us. Otherwise, I agree with your post entirely. You make some excellent points, and I admire your grasp and understanding of history.

Agreed, Dooj. I would have no problem with a woman president. But certainly not hilliary. Good lord almighty, she didn`t raise her child, the nannies did. She is dishonest and opportunistic. She is NOT an example of a professional woman or parent. I do know a woman who is an awsome mom. She is a professional that made her millions and retired at 40 to raise her family on her farm. She is also in the national guard and is more intimidating than any man I ever met when it comes to sheer bull dogged determination and intensity. She can out do most guys physically, yet be as genteel and charming as the most sophisticated people in society. We gals CAN do it, we just have to believe it.

This idea that a wife cannot make a good parent/guardian/professional, is simply another thing that holds people back from achieving their true potential in my opinion. I understand about needing to make choices. I mean it would be difficult to be an effective parent and juggle the demands of a high demand professional career, but is it not equally so for either parent? I know some families where the wife is as instrumental in her professional career as her spouse, they share the responsibility of home and kids, the husband actually takes on the lions share of the cleaning and much of the child care. They make it work because they believe that they can and ought to.

Oh, I see now jeaniam that you have started posting under your own name...Welcome, welcome, I didn`t mean it to sound as if I was talking about you...lol You make some interesting points about women in history. I think that makes the great point that we can do just about anything that we THINK we can do.... I mean wouldn`t have Elizabeth believed that she was capable because of her royal birth right? Didn`t Joan of Arc have the courage to do what she did because she believed that God called her? Can it be the same with us when we believe that we are fully capable functioning human beings to achieve the goals and dreams that we strive for when we stop believing that we must be subjet to the vagaries of our spouses opinions?

.........I actually think that we were doing just fine here without you returning to stir the pot again John, which I think you meant to do all along anyway. By the way, from what I have read so far, your wife seems to be a class act with well thought out opinions. Of COURSE she would be welcomed, and her input appreciated.

AMEN Listener!! Repentance, and ASK for forgiveness....something that is shamefully absent from most off shoot and ex twi leaders. I think that is huge symptom of the contamination stemming from old vp`s doctrine.

I agree Dot, physical death, the threat of a real gun leveled at my head didn`t hold any fear for me. What was so much worse was the fear and shame....the degredation of possibly becoming posessed. The shame of dissapointing God, maybe of becoming a spiritual contaminant to your brothers and sisters. This was the weapon used to inforce the insane things that were required of us. I know that when I was accused of being posessed, the shame was so overwhelming, the fear that if I DID try to contact any one for help that I might infect a beloved family member.... I seriously thought that I ought to remove the spiritual stenche of my posessed self from this world. I was an 18 yr old kid who was trying with all of my heart to do my very best for God. I didn`t know how or where or when I had allowed myself to become contaminated spiritually, but if this new tc`s wife said it was so...than who the hell was I to think otherwise?? I didn`t want to live without God.

Subjecting one to another, pretty much covers it for me. There were times in our life when I was required to take charge. There were times when my husband was entirely unreasonable and it was necessary for me as the mother of the children and guardian of the home, a Godly responsibility to stand up against and actually defy him, in complete disregard of the twi teaching. (He just never had much trouble defying me for some reason...lol) As with most of our understanding from twi, I didn`t think I could or should untill it was actually required. Then I realised how dumb we had been. There are times in everyones lives where they are mistaken or arses, in spite of their gender. Sometimes when your judgement if faulty, or impaired, your actions will affect innocent people adversely. I just know that life was tough while I followed the *submit to your husband/leader* dogma. We began to heal and grow once I quit shutting up as the meek little woman. Our role is so much greater than we usually can see it. I think the only thing that limits some of us many times is ourselves.

Excellent word Ex. The Methodist church we occasionally attend has a woman that is a pastor. She never assumes the roll of a leader, she runs her bu tt off taking care of people. She is greatly loved for her efforts, her sermons are inspirational. She would be offended if you referred to her as a leader...but she is in the truest sense of the word because she only seeks to help/serve. I don`t think *leader* is a healthy spiritual concept for the leader or the follower. So long as people think that they need one though, I am sure that there are those who will assume the role for them.

Beautiful Highway.

Maybe we are smarter now BECAUSE we were once suckered??

Well I wouldn`t agree with a guy OR gal going for a job that they couldn`t do physically or mentally. There are times though that guts and determination can get you through, maybe further than someone else with a natural gift and ability...male or female.

I guess the statements about being subject to our husbands or guys being able to do the job better has bothered me. Sometimes I think that we are talked into holding ourselves back in order to fit someones idea of virtuous or Godly...shrug In this day and age we are allowed access to all of the same education and resources that the guys have. If it is an area of physical endeavor, such as police, fireman, army, etc...then we may have to work harder to succede, where as a guy might be naturally gifted..... Just like we (or they) may not be as mentally sharp as the next person, get as good a grades in school etc if one wants to excell in a scientific field.... but hard work can make up for our lack if we want it bad enough....the options are there for us if we want to work hard enough to achioeve our goal.

One thing to consider.....if we hold ourselves back because of biblical custom.... in the corporate world or our relationships.... Consider this.....the women in scriptures culturaly were denied an education, they were denied access to the temple and scriptures, they were TOLD that God didn`t want them to be anything other than wives and mothers....who was going to go against God and men? Sure they were incapable of being successfull professionally. They had neither the education, nor were allowed to develop the skills necessary to succede in their culture at the time. All the resources and teachings were focused on the sons. The women in order to survive had to define their role in the parameter that their culture allowed. I think we do ourselves a tremendous disservice to convince ourselves that somehow we are less capable to persue our interests and goals....these days in most instances I think, is a level playing field of opportunity.

Well, just keep in mind that that *old way mind* was inspired by the cultural predjudices of 2000 plus years ago. I mean some of that women stuff in the bible we have already recogniosed as no longer applicable in todays world and dismissed...We cut our hair, we wear the clothes we like, we worship in the same room as the guys....we speak in public, own property....etc...and I just don`t see God having a problem with these things...while if it were to happen in biblical times the isrealites would no doubt stone us as heretics. I see little advantage subjecting ourselves to the cultural rules and values of 2-5000 years ago....we accepted outragious restrictions and accepted roles as 2nd class citizens in twi in the belief that was how God requires things 2000 years later. As far as military and women...I have a friend, 45 years old, mother of 3. Her reserve unit was called up and deployed to iraq. Not only was she able to keep up physically, when they had a company wide contest going in a self defense sparring type of contest...she wasn`t participating....but her teammates started calling her...knowing what an accomplished fighter she was from a life time of training and staying fit. She whipped the stew out of the last guy standing....I kid you not! My girls after 5 years of martial arts training could keep up with most guys be it running, fighting etc. I would not deny them the opportunity to fight if they wished. As far as decision making abilities??? My goodness my 18 yr old just replaced a much older man as shift leader. She has far surpassed him already in her ability to take charge in tense situations. I think it is all in how bad we want something as to whether or not we can achieve success. Please don`t hold ourselves and our daughter back with the prejudices of a long dead civilization.

Absolutely Blarney, and BECAUSE God worked, showed himself strong even in SPITE of our misunderstandings...we in our arrogance assumed that we were right!!! Gosh, one of those breakthrough moments.....whew That arrogance is what can still hold us back today. I think that last paragragh of your is worthy of a thread all of it`s own.

*fear was palletable* you know I had forgotten just how intensely frightening every moment was....I didn`t leave the farm, if I could help it> Every trip to town, to the pediatrician, to the grocery store was an opportunity to catch a fatal disease or die in a wreck. I had to stop my favorite passion of rescuing and fostering animals because of fear of rabies. Each subsequent pregnancy had me convinced I would die in child birth, leaving my other babies homeless....sigh We stayed in twi out of fear for consequences... the suspense of waiting for the promised catastrophy when we left was awfull. I thank God for Greasespot, for the posters that have helped me work past all of this. We have come a long way baby!

Congratulations act2. I remember the terror after leaving too. Well I didn`t leave, my husband refused to play ball. I still went to fellowship religiously to try to keep satan from killing us.....but I lived in constant fear, waiting for disaster to strike us. I cried and begged him to tithe....I knew that it was the only thing that would keep us alive. I prayed, I started living my old wow commitment as much as possible...1st 30 miniutes in prayer and the bible, we ran non twi bible studies, etc not because I felt led to, but was trying to avert catastrophy. Guys...I HATED my spouse for putting my children and ourselves in such danger. I despised him for his weakness in commitment and the consequences that his family would have to pay..... Everyday was a day of stress and suspense waiting for the other shoe to drop. I went to fellowship no matter how nasty they became because I felt it was my only chance to protect the children. When bad things happened, I tearfully admitted to the tc that it was no doubt due to our lack of tithe and was patted on the back for being so honest and brave. I felt it was so unfair that my family was suffering because of my husbands bull headed stubborness....I felt a kinship with jobs wife....we were all gonna die and it was HIS fault. Lol can you tell I was a gem to live with in those years?? I look back at those years and marvel at how much fear was a part of twi`s doctrine and practice. We were so proud of our knowledge of the scriptures, our understanding of the *truth*, our spiritual stand. What did it get us? Certainly not the quiet peace of knowing God as our sufficiency and Jesus as our shepherd...shrug

The thing is...I just wonder why we need leaders....I mean with Jesus as our shepherd, with God as our sufficiency. I just think that *leaders* interfere with us learning that on our own personal level. I think each of us can be the hands/feet/mouth of God....those whom God worketh to will and to do of his good pleasure. I just wonder if the concept of spiritual *leaders* is as archaic as the isrealites wanting kings...you know? We got em because we think we need em, rather than because they are really of any benefit. I wonder if in trying to BE a leader, one has not already set their course for destruction....shrug Just some thoughts.