rascal

Thank you Sunesis. Eyes, I think the statement that you made * because I don`t want to think that I wasted so many years* is a key point. I am not against holding on to the good that we recieved. It is when in order to believe in that good, (I am not talking about you now) we have to lable any information or person who presents evidence contrary to the view we hold as lies or somehow evil in order to maintain our personal perspective. I am just now realising how conveniently I dismissed information all of these years because I didn`t want to face the embarassing prospect that I might have been wrong.

Hey WAIT just a damned miniute Dooj. I haven`t done a THING to have you include me in that statement of NOT behaving. That really ....es me off. My point of view obviously irritates you jean to the point that you feel compelled to resort to name calling rather than rational discussion of ideas...ok, no problem. This response actually enhances the point that I was trying to make in a way. In our need to be right, it seems like we have to lable everything or everyone wrong or evil or crazy that would present information contrary to that which we would like to believe...shrug

Check it out...the new cover! You can see it on mugglenet. The books editor says that it is depicting something very important. He also said that he sobbed and sobbed all the way through the book....that it is very emotional. It has more pages than the goblet of fire...whew The picture shows him in some kind of stone stadium there are people watching in the shadows...we are looking through tattered curtains or something...he and voldemort are both reaching for something. If the arch that serius fell into wasn`t in a dungeon, I`d almost say that is what it looks like...but there is bright sky overhead. There is some kind of smoke or mist he is reaching towards. He has something tied around his neck.

Oh yeah an I remember now that there was an entire wow family murdered by their wow coordinator in Alabama in 78 or 79. Only a few people knew about it...very hush hush Wow, it is scarey how often this stuff happened.

Jean, so you received deliverance....great...what about our brothers and sisters who didn`t? Some of us were wounded grievously by the same fellows teaching you the scriptures.....Why would a loving God lead all of us us to a place that would wound many of us so deeply? Did he pick a few ...you ..you and I believe um yes...you over there will recieve knowledge and deliverance.....and let me see....you..and you will lose your families, you over there are expected to service the mogs, and you in the corner over there..you will be dying...sorry, but not to worry, I won`t let you down, and you can blame every bad thing that brings you to despair, on the fallibility of men...shrug I think that is an awfull lot to lay at his feet, given the scriptural account on how precious a single soul is. How could any knowledge learned be worth what was suffered? Given the information available now in hindsight, it is time for me to reassess whether or not we were led there by God, or twi`s spiritual healthiness, or if the knowledge aquired is even valid.

Ummm eyes, Sound out 84 was in Nashville (about 5 hrs east of memphis) I was there too and had a ball.

There was a twi believer, I am nearly certain was a wow that turned out to be a serial killer on a college campus in Lansing Mich. I flipped out watching it on a tv crime show. I never heard about it while in twi.

I think that you are right waysider. So are we guilty of the same defense mechanisms? I used to tell myself that ourself that at LEAST we were smarter than that jonestown bunch. I was still smug and arrogant concerning the knowledge that I had aquired. I guess that I saw myself in some of those interviews.

I don`t know guys, seems like you gave a whole lot more n two cents worth...wow some very interesting points to consider. I feel like I owe you.... Listener, I think you nailed it...down to brass tacks....our spirituality is OUR business, OUR responsibility....when we allow someone else to assume that role, it is no wonder that the results were less than favorable. Your statement about satans greatest trick was steering God`s people away from Jesus and supplanting him with the mog concept is also quite a stunning concept to consider. Full circle, I think that your point is very valid....that when the way east and west was seized, heck I`d say even further back to bg leanards class..... folks just didn`t realise that a ministry, or several had been hijacked. ...that that which was once good was now under someone elses control. The reason that I have been thinking along these lines is because in my experience, when I began questioning the validity of what we were taught, the legitimacy of the ministry that we helped build, the accuracy of the knowledge taught or even the spiritual nature of those who deceived us, people can get really defensive, like it is them or their integrity being questioned. I just wonder why we (not just us, I am talking about the other ex cult folks I have seen on interviews now) even decades afterwards feel so defensive and protective of our personal group and doctrine....even once aware that there were serious problems.

All the time Jean, all the time. I don`t doubt that for a single miniute. Good point sprawled. It would be my guess he has to let us do as we please and work within whatever window or frame work that our bull headed stubbornness will allow...lol And BECAUSE he seems to have worked in our lives in spite of the evil practiced by our religious group, we seem to automatically assume that makes US right in our doctrine and understanding.

I am not saying we shouldn`t look back fondly on the good times. Rejoice in the friendships. Take what is of value and apply it as we move on. We cannot however move and grow if we are bull dof=gged determined that we are right. I just wonder why it bothers us so to take into consideration that we may have been wrong. In spite of our best intentions and knowledge of scriptures.

Do I so badly need twi to some how be right or have virtue because I cannot handle being wrong myself? Do we have to imbue vpw or his doctrine or his ministry with a goodness because some how it ties in to how we feel about ourselves? How many times do we temporize what we learn of the abuses by saying....yeah that sucked...but it was ok because.... Yeah there were abuses...but we learned the word...so it was worth it... Yeah vpw stole his doctrine....but that is ok because we learned...so his plagerism wasn`t such a big deal... Yeah vpw and his leaders drugged and raped our teenage corpes sisters....but hey he was just a man and he made mistakes...we still got some personally beneficial information... Yeah people died when they followed the leaderships orders....but well they must have blown it somewhere... I guess what I am getting at is why do we tend to consider twi and its abuses any less heinous than those suffered by folks who were part of the peoples temple or the branch dividians? Why do we not hold twi in the same contempt? People were decieved, the scriptures used to enforce the evil required.... people were hurt, people died, scriptures were used to cover it all. Yet I still see former followers on tv interviews trying to explain why it was really ok, and that there were simply a few problems. I mean is twi better in our minds simply because it was *our* cult? Is our need to not feel foolish or decieved what prevents us from honestly examining our involvement our doctrine, and our understanding of how God and the universe work? We have trained our minds for decades to steer away from the negatives, not contemplate the implications of the fruit, form new opinions. To do so, is viewed as an unsavory thing. So that is my question...Do we need twi to be right and spiritually healthy in order to feel good or confident in ourselves? DO we not think about what happened in order to avoid the implications of the spiritual darkness of this groups leaders?

Thanks for the clarification Dooj. I actually thought you were referring to me (obviously) peace friend :) Jean, I just don`t think so so :)

Dooj, I guess I don`t understand what you mean, who exactly is NOT moving forward trying to do better? Who isn`t trying to help one another? I feel like you are saying that the soul searching and struggle to come to grips and understanding irritates you. Please tell me if I am mistaken. As I see it, each of us moves forward on the path that they chose. Each has impact in a unique and special way that maybe no other can achieve. Some don`t care to look back, Others need to in order to understand in order to insure what mistakes not to make in the future. Neither is wrong, what I think would be a mistake is to decide our personal path of growth was the best or only way.

Son of the master...I REMEMBER that!!! We thought you guys were SO awsome! Shell that is very sad, they were some of the nicest people I ever met. Dot, I cleaned windows at the big hotel in hot springs while I was a wow.

Listener, that is awsome about understanding who Jesus was to you. You don`t need to be a researcher to find that....I figure all of those guys who were supposedly the spiritual heavies ...their research ability did nothing to help them discover what you did after leaving. Please continue to share your insight, you might just provide that missing piece of the puzzle for someone else.

I think that we want to feel good about what we did because our motives were pure. (I don`t know if I count responding on this thread as I was app corpes 2 yrs before becoming corpes spouse) I know that my motives were pure, I just don`t know if that made it right. I don`t think twi could have functioned without all of us, right down to Joe believer who did no more evil that bringing people to twig, and teacj=hing the bible in his house. Our selfless love, our innocent enthusiasm was what lent an air of legitimacy to twi. If people had seen what he was really like, what would be really expected of his dulous, they would have run far and fast. As vrutal as this sounds, I feel like every single person corpes or not, who ever abs`d or witnessed, or taught ... bears some of the responsibility. Though we did what we did in the name of God....who was eventually served? What was the end result??

I was a wow in texarkana and fayetteville in 79/80. Anybody know if the Steve and Michele every got out?

One must consider that we did not become so full of fear over night. Before twi, I would have never dreamed of being afraid that God couldn`t take care of me, or that satan would kill me, or that my family would suffer and die if I did not follow a certain set of rules. Blow it in a single area after God knows how many years of striving to cover every base, to leave no doors open...and blammo a family member is dead. Not obeying leadership was the biggest no no...I was willing to do anything rather than risk their displeasure, because it meant that I wasn`t listening to God either. It was heartbreaking when ordered to go against our concience and good judgement. It didn`t matter how distastefull or dangerous the *suggestion* was, I was too afraid to go against God to refuse. We were presented with such a distorted view of God and his requirements...sigh Listener, yes life is very very good since leaving the fear we lived in while involved with twi. God has shown himself to be tender and caring beyond most of our wildest expectations. Shame on our teachers for causing us to be so afraid of displeasing him.

Great topic Highway. I don`t know if think even those of us with pure heart necessarily were doing a good thing. No matter how honorable our intentions were, because folks ended up sticking around believing that it was a good place to be because of what they saw in us. We inadvertantly hid the true nature of the organization.

I have a picture that I both hate and love. I have mentioned it before. When you look at it....at first you see a peacefull scene of ducks sitting quietly in a picturesquel pond. There are three ducks that are in the process of back winging to land in amongst the ducks who`s presence would seem to indicate that all is well. The arriving ducks, do not realise that the ducks in the pond are decoys, and that with their attention focused on the decoys are unaware of the hunters that are half rising, guns at shoulder from behind a blind .... readying themselves to fire. The ducks are entirely oblivious to their impending doom. I identify my involvement with twi with this picture. At first glance it gives the appearance of serenity and peace. On closer examination it shows itself to be a scene of impending carnage. I see us. The arriving ducks were the new victims.....the decoys were we believers whom attracted while distracting the unwary, the corpes that were aware were the blind that hid the hunters untill the prey had been lured close enough for them to kill.

They couldn`t have functioned without ANY of us. What I mean is....proverbs talks about *in vain is the snare set in sight of the bird* or some such thing... The meaning is....if we (the prey) had seen what they (the predators) had in mind...we would have fled before becoming ensnared by the trap. I see US .... the good hearted, pure intentioned, humble believers as the unintentional BAIT that lured unsuspecting victims. The general public saw us, our earnest efforts, our loving hearts, our selfless giving, the scriptures held forth... as the face of twi. We were what enticed the prey. Further, I see the corpes as the camoflage (sp?) (though unbeknownst to themselves) that the evil at headquarters hid their true nature of debauchery and cruelty behind. I see those whom were aware of the evil, who knew the fate that awaited those who would become ensnared, yet simply didn`t care ...... as the ones waiting to spring the trap. TWI, VPW, LCM were able to masquerade as Godly people in charge of a spiritually healthy group ONLY because all of us, (though unaware) enabled them to stay diguised, their true nature and motives to remain hidden.

Ohhh you you MAN you! lol

That is stunning listener. I wonder how much of it was escalating alcoholism. Most of the people I know that are, tend to be extremely volitile (sp?) They also seem to think that they are justified in any abuse they chose to mete out...well it was all their fault...they made me mad, or they shouldda done this ... Doesn`t matter, he wasn`t the end all be all mog, he wasn`t a good leader, he wasn`t even a very good christian....if he was one at all, I have my doubts. His successors sucked even worse. The fruit of his ministry is not that of a good tree. I think that his understanding of the scriptures that he imparted to us, might have been detrimental to us spiritually.

AHHHHH sorry Kathy, I assumed that you were telling us that was the case. Thanks for clarifying. Sorry bout that...lol