rascal

Uh John, please carefully re read the post you referred to.... follow the context carefully... In the sentences immediately prior, (the whole paragragh as a matter of fact)....I was discussing the people who still felt a need to defend their cult....not even twi per say.... That this statement is what THEY have said to and about the people who objected to the treatment recieved in the cult or at the leaders hands... You and jean are taking this sentence completey out of context and misapplying it to yourselves....absolutely in complete opposite of WHOM was saying it and to WHOM it was being addressed :) You are mistaken in believing that I personally would use that phrase against another.

Maybe you would feel differently if it was your teenaged daughter that entered the wow program or way corpes with stars in her eyes ...a heart full of love to learn how to serve God...only to find themselves far from home and family and learning that it was decided that YOUR particular ministry was to sexually service the man of God? Open your heart and think for a miniute about our sisters faced with this delmma. The betrayal of trust...Life for these girls were horrible if they refused...they were declared posessed so that nobody would listen to them if they told....if it seemed that they were going to be believed...they were thrown out of the ministry and program. It has been substantiated by top level leaders...that unwilling girls were slipped drugs in their drinks....only to awake and find themselves in bed with the mog. Think about our brothers who entered these programs pure of heart only to find out in time that their wives were expected to service the mogs...one of them suicided when lcm prevented his wife from leaving. For a miniute think about what was happening to our sisters and brothers behind the scenes after these men left the teaching stage. I don`t think what we learned was worth the devistation of one single trusting souls life.....and there were so many. Each of those souls were precious, their treatment unconscionable.....in my book. Yeah, you bet I believe the organization was corrupt.

Don`t be rediculous Jean, I never EVER said anything about people agreeing with me and spiritual sophistication...I don`t have any idea where you picked up that phrase, I don`t believe that I ever used it...other than that was what our twi leaders told us whenever we disagreed with an edict or order, or if something struck us as wrong. ...and JUST so there is no confusion on what I DID mean as far as corrupt.... I meant corrupt as in vpw was a corrupt man from his youth. A corrupt man who was thrown out of his church for sexual indescretions....A corrupt man who *borrowed without permission* a class from a good man, added a few twists and started his own ministry. A corrupt man who hijacked the ministries being built by christians in california....a corrupt man who taught evil doctrine making sexual servicing of the mogs a requirement for his teenaged followers....a corrupt man who was guilty of debauchery and cruelty...a man who`s vices eventually killed him. A corrupt man who`s ministry was a detriment to many.... Yeah, I meant that I believe that the whole shebang was corrupt. You just had an awfull lot of really nice people that didn`t know any better and put their heart and souls into what they believed was a good place. The good we saw was a diredt result of their efforts....not vpw nor lcm Just so we are absolutely clear on what I meant ...lol

well...since she had two lesbians that were supposedly delivered that lived in her basement for years sharing a room....that Donna who supposedly had *opportunities* in this area...and was her best friend....that only one bed was used when they vacationed together...has led to speculation. There was a thread a long time ago where posters claimed to have seen the evidence first hand....I have no clue as to how to find that thread now.

Thanks for the clarification George. Sometimes the stories tend to blur together in my mind. The serial murder in Lansing didn`t kill wows, he killed college students if I remember correctly.

I am sorry Dot, it has been 15 years ago. I don`t remember. I watched the entire show about the murders and the search for the killer...the clues left behind....etc. It wasn`t untill the very end after they had made the arrest that they mentioned that he was part of twi. I am pretty sure they said he was part of the wow program. You might try researching murders in Lansing at michigan state.

Yes, we endured the bad assuming that was the *virtuous* thing to do, that God required this of us. How do you think he must felt as we meekly accepted the abuse believing that HE required it of us?

I agree listener. I would contend that we were infected with unhealthy thought processes that even after leaving we don`t necessarily recognise as harmfull. Waysider, great points about turning a blind idea to suffering. Jean, I disagree, I think the way was WAS a corrupt organization from the very inception. VPW was in trouble all the way back to high school. There was a REASON that the local folks had no respect or trust for him...and it wasn`t for the lame reason that he gave us...*a prophet is not without honor save in his own country* He earned their contempt with his sexual misconduct dating all the way back to the church he was thrown out of.

Jean the phrase was used...or also *spiritually mature enough to handle it*. That was what they called it. They said that *all things were *lawfull* Just don`t do something that makes you a stumbling block to your brother. The rule was for those deemed spiritually mature enough to handle their *freedoms in christ*...anything was allowable. Also once one was considered spiritually mature, they were taught about *lock box* They weren`t to speak of this because other people couldn`t handle it spiritually*...etc That was why we who weren`t one of the *enlightened ones* rarely heard about the abuses. The ones who didn`t go along with the plan once they were enlightened were declared posessed to their families and friends and thrown out of the ministry. That was why we rarely heard the other side of the story. That is why there were different teachings and standards.

another spot said...*I don`t think that good experiences prove good doctrine* THAT should be posted in the greasespot gems

Edited to say....Another spot, I think that you nailed it right on the head. ...your last post basically covered exactly what I was struggling to articulate. God worked in SPITE of the faulty leader ... in SPITE of the faulty doctrines...I thank God for loving and working with us in spite of our stupidity. I won`t give those men or their evil practise my gratitude for what God did in spite of them.

Thankyou Eyes, I wasn`t responding to you, but felt I needed to be crystal clear in light of the repeated allegations that I had been ugly in pm`s. Go back and re read jean, I never said that ever. It would be quite a foolish assumption on my part. This thread is not about that...if you would like to address pm`s do it there please. This thread is about why people need twi to be ok.

Full circle, thanks for sharing your pieces of the puzzle. Your account dovetails in with what others have shared of their experiences. Bolshevik, I agree about the doctrine sucking the joy out of life. It was only in starting from scratch did I start seeing the hand of God again. Some of the stuff I retained as of value, most was discarded as I learned the greater law of love. I am not saying our experiences weren`t enjoyable, or that we didn`t learn something of merit...we did, I am not denying that. But then again....neither do the surviving davidians or temples gate folks...heck there are still folks following the stargate (I think was their names) even after the comet went by and their fellow cult members suicided. Everyone seems to have excuses why the death or theft was ok. (I don`t think any of them had the legacy of debauchery that ours did) Everyone is still very protective of the group that they invested so much time and heart into. People seem to need to make it some how ok...they are passionate in their defense of their lifes choices...whether it makes sense in hind sight or not.... Anybody that thinks otherwise is some how ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle it...etc I really don`t think we have anything on these guys as far as being spiritual and right. I think that in honestly being able to understand what was right and what was wrong, is the only way to begin healing from some of the more destructive thought processes.

Just to clarify, I never ever said anything ugly to jeaniam in private messages. I simply replied honestly to the questions that she asked. I did not initiate contact nor did I continue to answere her.... (ignoring the name calling and allegations entirely)....after she told me to never contact her again. I do not know how to paste pm`s, or I would in self defense.. I said nothing that I did not say right here in the open, I spoke carefully with much thought, and with all of the love and tact that I could muster. I KNOW this is a lot to digest, I know that it is difficult to believe that people we loved and trusted could have betrayed us so. It is much easier to believe that the folks presenting the other side of the stories are lying so as not to have to re evaluate ones entire spiritual understanding. I have nothing but compassion in my heart when exploring these issues and coming to grips with what happened. I have tried to ignore the slams because I do not want this thread to end up in the soap opera forum. I don`t mind. I do not care what I am called, but I want folks to know that I was not ugly to anybody in public or private.

Dooj, thankyou. Don`t underestimate our ability to stay on track in spite of detours here and there. I think some awsome ground is being covered. People are all contributing missing pieces of the puzzle so that we can get a greater idea of the entire picture. It is a good thing :)

Thank you word wolf for the information presented in a succinct manner. Another spot, thank you for that link, that place is where I read some of the most horrific stories...I know folks who know at least one of the ladies who wrote. I had read it before, but didn`t know how to paste over to here. John, I don`t argue that God worked. I think however that he worked in spite of how bad things were....just because he worked within the frame work that we gave him access, you feel that twi/you are right. It is no different that the other folks that I talked about. They learned scripture, they think that they recieved deliverance, that they saw God work, hey their group wasn`t so bad. The debauchery, the lives shattered, the death all gives evidence to the contrary. As far as your evaluation of me, my mental state, my spiritual health and my peac of mind, I can only say that you are mistaken, but thankyou for your concern.

Jean, you told me in your last haranguing that if I answered your pm you would have me reported. I guess I didn`t think you wanted to hear any of my answeres...shrug The evidence is there. The stories have been told first hand by reputable posters, some of whom are my friends. I know what I personally experienced. I know that there are many who have come forth on other web sights. John L7nn among others confirmed what these girls said happened... Somehow I still don`t think that will be good enough for you. You seem to have made up your mind that you cannot be wrong, there for, any evidence to the contrary would of necessity be a lie. I am sorry.

Great points bolshevik and listener. I agree with you chef concerning prayer.

Hells bells, I don`t know what *I* think most of the time...it`d be pretty tough for me to tell anyone ELSE what to think... :blink: ....lol John in me simply questioning the validity of what we are taught and the spirituality of those who taught us based on the fruit exhibited....you feel the need to brand me as a liar, pshycotic...whatever...and you feel compelled to make me out as somehow untrustworthy or having an agenda, so that my point of view will not have any merit..... That is the point that I am trying to discuss....in your need to believe in the wholesome nature of twi, you have to brand any who have experience to the contrary as some how crazy or evil...in other words, in your need to be right, you have to trash someone else.... This was the point I was trying to make about folks who had been in cults feeling so protective of their own particular group. Eyes, YOU get it!! You understand the concept that I was trying to articulate and just not doing a very good job at. It is mighty hard for me to give credit to or thank God for the guys who hurt so many of my brothers and sister. For in so doing, it feels like what happened to them just wasn`t a big deal.

Agreed, Dooj.

I agree.

Thanks a lot act2, I appreciate that. Gosh what a shame to have missed you, I am only an hour away from the grand ole opry. I would have loved to have gotten together for dinner. I was attracted because God needed me in the spiritual battle. He needed me, it was a chance to do something selfless and grand. I think that is what chaps my arse the most.. all of the selfless service, that giving, the sacrifice, with all of my soul....rather than benefiting God or mankind.....sigh simply went t fill a mans belly....bah

I mentioned this on the corpes thread, but I think it is applicable here as well. I think that it is very difficult to go from thinking that we were *God`s elite* with a special corner on the market of truth, to becoming humble enough to admit that we were mistaken and start again from scratch. I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty.

??? Oh well please do enlighten me then jean. It is my point of view that you appear to disagree with, so you then need to brand me as evil or crazy in order to feel right, rather than counter with logical points. That is the same thing that we tend to do with our cult involvement. Lets try not to think about the abuse, lets try not to think about the betrayal and death, lets not examine the fruit of the spirit that will identify whether our leader are of the flesh or of the spirit TOO closely because we really don`t want to KNOW what the source of their power was...geeze ..it just isn`t honest.

I guess that I really do care, because if every last thing I learned was wrong, it significantly impacts my decision making abilities and life today. I think if we don`t get honest about what happened. If we traipse through life thinking we are right.....we aren`t very likely to get humble enough to learn where we are wrong and fix it. For me, it is issue of honesty, clarity and continued personal growth. I also think that it is very hard to go from viewing ourselves as *God`s spiritually elite* to being humble enough to admit that we were wrong and start again from scratch.