rascal

Me too Dave!! The SAD part is that it has taken over 15 years....sigh another decade and I oughtta be just fine... :P

No wonder about it Bramble. I saw the nastiest bullies were the ones who recieved the accolaides and were moved up the ladder the quickest. When everybody we knew with heart and integrety were being fired and thrown out in the late 80s, and my spouse was saying it was time for us to leave as well....I can remember desperately telling him that if all of us left, it would leave the bullies who enjoyed hurting people in charge.

John you completely mischaracterized my point in attempt to belittle my statement. You are a big boy and I am certain, capable of legitimately making your own comments without lying about someone elses pov. It is rediculous to think that you understand why myself or anybody else returns here or even more silly, what is healthy or acceptible for anybody else. Please try to answere for yourself, as that is the only one who`s perspective and motive you are qualified to comment on.

Imagine, maybe there is more to our healing than just moving on. Maybe there are layers, levels that need to be examined each one at a time, only to be seen and presented as the previous layer has been examined and addressed. It took decades to develope our thought processes and beliefs. Decades of suffering injustices and abuse silently. I think that it takes a lot of time and carefull examination to regain healthy thought processes. I think that in the journey of coming to grips ...that together we can help one another.

Yeah Mark, but you know? God is so awsome. Even as messed up as those of us who committed heart and soul for decades were, who gave up our lives and dreams....It seems like the bigger the heart break, the tougher the situation....the greater the injustice suffered....God seemed to work even BIGGER to bring the deliverance and healing. Does that make sense? I can look back and realise that it was during the very most heart breaking, soul crushing times in twi that God manifested himself in the most fantastic ways....impossible things that absolutely couldn`t be chance. No it wasn`t pleasant, it wasn`t pretty, it takes years to straighten out your thinking processes.....but I don`t feel alone either. In my opinion, the most important key is to realise that we were wrong pure and simple and let God start over with a clean slate. See where he can take you without the restraints of our twi aquired knowledge and arrogance.

Penguine, all I know is that there are folks that will arrive expecting to join with Jesus. They obviously believe that they have the right to be there.....they have done things in Jesus` name....but Jesus is going to tell them to *depart for I knew you not* I think that we have a poor understanding of the new birth and who will have access to the kingdom of God. The verses in galatians 5 say that those who manifest the fruits of the flesh will have no inheritance ....and I know plenty of people who manifest those very fruit who believe that recitation of romans 10;9 & 10 guarantee them access. I like your analogy of a contract, a covenant that needs to be honored.

I am so glad to hear that in SPITE of what twi says to the contrary, people are waking up and seeking freedom from the bondage of associating with them. You know? I don`t think hq gives a damn, less work for them anyway.

Why didn`t the wc stand up and fight this injustice? Because when they did... many many times they were immediately taken by armed security to pack their belongings and escorted to the edge of the property. They were then visciously slandered, their reputations savaged, and people were told that these folks were posessed. Any attempts to talk with these people and you stood the chance of becoming posessed yourself. I was told by one lady that this happened to her when she refused to participate in a threesome with LCM. By the time she got to her home state...all believers had been contacted and told she was posessed. Many DID stand up, knowing the price that they would pay. But when you are declared posessed...who is going to listen? Nobody wanted to be the subjects of the next days lunch rants. Nobody wanted to be declared posessed and m&a`d forever seperated from the house hold.

Nope....I never saw martindale work hard ever. No..I never saw martindale work along beside the wc. No...I never saw him serve by example. No...I never saw him travel to a region to bless people. What did I see?? I saw a vulger man constantly haranguing and critisizing all of the people who WERE working hard and doing the very best that they could to work heartily as unto the lord. I saw a man who took lavish vacations on abs while expecting the rest of the wc to spend THEIR vacations slaving at corpes week and the roa every year. I have no respect for the mans lack of character, poor work ethic, lack of principles, or lack of just plain basic decency.

Belle, it just takes time friend. It isn`t a process that we can rush. Also the *real self* for some of us is difficult because we got involved when we were 17. The adult that leaves 15 years later has no real self, because the immature self of the teenager they once were doesn`t work as an adult. For me it is an ongoing exciting adventure of exploring who and what I want to be. It is like starting over with a clean slate. Where I go from here is up to me. Of course it may be mid life crisis....lol but I am a big believer in exploring new interests. Liofe is short, we have wasted way too much time already. I intend to enjoy every miniute of the time I have left.

Nope.

Typical bully behavior John. When you cannot logically counter a point....just throw in your your whine and perpetual drivel about women and double standards and the lack of fairness.... Pretty sorry when non christians behavior is more christian than the proclaimed christian. All the quoting and backing of scriptures to prove your point means nothing when you are using them to bully and antagonize...scripture doesn`t make bad behavior or lack of understanding correct.

AMEN Bramble.... It was a wierd concept....certainly embarassing in hind sight.

I think that they are very pretty, but germ freak that I am...I can`t get past the idea of trusting people to be sanitary. I watched a documentary where an enormous percentage of students at a campus were infected with hepatitis (sp?) all being traced back to the tatoo and body piercing place that was popular. I love watching miami ink and seeing th beautifull designes. I think personally one or two masterpieces...really really pretty ones is nicer than a whole lot of clutter of little or average. I like the memorial tattoos....though my daughters boy friends was drawn by an amature friend and covers the whole arm and is hideous. He like it though, and it is a tribute to his sister...so what can you say.. Your tattoo is gorgeous Chas.

AWSOME!!!! What a great accomplishment. This is a huge deal......Congratulations on meeting your goal and living your dream. :)

Bramble, your well thought through perspectives are appreciated.

I know that (as a woman) I was told before I married that the women were too emotional to make a rational decision. That men were more logical and so should always be listened to. I was told to not obey the husband was to be stiff necked, that it would allow the devil in to our lives. I was told that God would protect me if I obeyed because I was doing his will...if I did not obey even if I was right, God would not honor that because I was being rebellious. No I am not a man, but I know that these were some of the things that we heard as a couple when being counseled before marriage God`s honest truth though...my spouse was completely unaware of what I had been taught at all of those years of womens advances. He had no idea why I never stood up to him....always secretly thought I was some kind of wimp.... He was shocked and appalled to find out what had kept me in silent misery for so many many years. I simply was taught that it was what God required.

Wow, that is some story. So very typical.

Yeah, that is a made up story...to bad life isn`t as clean and nice as a hollywood movie. We are talking real life of trying to live rediculous standards imposed on us by lunatics. The little woman sitting by quietly biding waiting for the right time for our Godly man to be in the right frame of mind to hear us didn`t save very many of our marriages. That didn`t help the wives and children of the alcoholics or the bullies who simply enjoyed throwing their weight around. There isn`t any minister getting an epiphany in our story to make it all right in the end. I don`t think you could possibly understand the ignominy of having to completely disregard yourself, your insight, your intelligence .... yes even your spiritual awareness...to stand by helplessly while a spouse with the twi given (notice I don`t say God given) right to make stupid decision after stupid decision that negatively impacted you and your children. To have NO say so, when you knew that they were dead wrong, or their judgement clouded by alcohol or arrogance, their abuse biblically acceptable, according to twi doctrines. To have the only recourse of a virtuous woman be considered prayer, placation, and quiet acceptance of the inevitable consequences was very cruel. It was so bad that I once told my husband I`d rather my girls didn`t marry a christian if it meant giving up their identity and freedom of will. Course I can understand now that my understanding of a Christian man and woman and marriage was at that time completely warped by the insanity of twi.

Amen Mr. Hamm!!! It was humiliating and degrading, and it is something that followed us for nearly a decade after we left. I was incapable/not allowed to making a decision without his permission....and on the other hand...my husband received no balance or help from his partner. He laments his lost *god hood* status when joking....when serious, he acknowledges that it is nicer to have a partner than being married to a bobble headed doll that just nods her head idiotically at every stupid thing that comes out of his mouth. He says that he is glad that the spiritual/physically/mentally responsible for the entire well being of each and every member of our family no longer rests entirely on HIS shoulders........lol Shifra, I wish that I had stood up for myself. I was given to understand that with him being corpes, if I twitched one eye lash out of line, it would reflect on his spirituality. It would forever cast doubt on his ability or leadership potential. I never wanted him to suffer consequences for having loved and married me. I never wanted him to look bad because of me not doing every thing just right. I was terrified of bringing shame to him.

Thank you so much guys. I love you too ex :)

Thanks friends! It was a quiet, peacefull birthday which for me.... is saying something....lol Birthdays/mothers days have in the past been notorious for every imaginable (not to mention unimaginable) disaster. It was so bad (I know some of you have heard this story) ...that one year a horse had died....we were digging a hole by hand...it was cold and raining we were ankle deep in mud...shovels getting heavier by the miniute...bloating, nasty 1000 lb carcass right beside us....and one of the teenagers says *wait just a MINIUTE*!! We stop looking at him questioningly and he leans on his shovel and says...*your birthday isn`t for another couple of weeks*!! Lol meaning we usually reserve such treats for that day......lol I spent a good part of the day in trepidation...lol The family took me to my favorite restaurant. We shopped at my favorite thrift shops and pawn shop. I sat for an hour admiring the horses....I spent the entire day goofing off basically. Fun story.....my 9 yr old Hannah comes up to me a week ago and says...I want one of those swim outfits that keep you warm in cold water....the kind that covers your arms and legs down to your knees....and I ask her more questions...it turns out she had seen a diver in a wet suit on a discovery show....I ask her what in the world she wants one of THEM for?? I told her.... number 1 I have never even seen one for sale in Tennessee...number 2 I told her that I highly doubted that they would make them in her size....and number 3 and most importantly, it would cost hundreds of dollars that I would be unwilling to spend on something that she would never use...as we don`t live near water....and promptly dismissed the request from my mind...... Well when we went into the local thrift store for our battered womens shelter on my birthday yesterday....what in the heck do you think the first thing my kiddo lays eyes on??? I`ll be damned if there wasn`t a real wet suit ....not only a wet suit in middle tennessee in an area that is no where near the water....but in a childs size....lol ...she pulls it off the rack and excitedly points out that it is the precise color of blue that she needed to match her water shoes....and confidently shows me the price tag....THREE dollars!!!! I am just marveling at the incongruity of everything coming together to put that childs desires within her grasp... when a woman who worked there walked by and said ....Gosh, I just hung that there this morning, I didn`t really think anybody would actually BUY it....lol My kiddo looks her straight in the eye and tells her...... that God had put it there for her :) She had to call her Daddy (and anyone afterwards who would listen to her) and tell him her *miracle* story as she calls it. Now mind you, I don`t know WHY she wants the goofy thing, or what on earth she plans on doing with it....lol...BUT ....I will never EVER tell her again that something is not possible....:)

I will get to where ever you have it when ever you have it. My horse situation isn`t so precarious any more I can get away.

Damn, THIS was one of my pet peeves. WHO knew that getting married meant that God would no longer speak to you unless through your spouse and that was after the tc...etc. It was bad enough being a woman/2nd class citizen in twi...but when you married you were 3rd class...the only thing thiong lower in the food chain was children.

Wow oak...I was the same way. I WANTED what ever it was that made these people so confident, so peacefull. I was really suprised that upon completeing the class, that i was not immediately transformed into one of those I admired so. OK, I`ll admit it, I was thoroughly dissapointed. Everyone around me was saying isn`t it great??? I assumed that it was my lack that I failed to have seen the greatness. I kept doing what everybody said would help me see and walk the greatness...classes...wow...way homes...copres... I just kept thinking if I did what I was told, someday I would *get it*