rascal

Eyes he did indeed say that.

JJ, the submission to husband deal is being presented as a reasonable explanation of the humiliation and mistreatment that many women endured in twi.

Well said as a man who never was required to submit to the humiliation and abuse that was required of a woman who desired to stand aproved before God in twi. Scriptures were used to ensnare and enslave. These pervs found the perfect way to commit their atrocities with impunity. While one would normally stand up in outrage when mistreated, if one feared that they would lack meekness or be considered posessed if they spoke up or raised an objection, an otherwise sound of mind adult would meekly accept the cruel treatment without protest.

I disagree...It was a ministry that USED the bible as a weapon for a bunch of sadistic bastards to manipulate people into accepting outragious abuse in the name of God that they would havenever otherwise tolerated.

I admire her as well. I have to tell you though, the movies are a very pale comparison to the books friend :) They are greatly simplified in order to fit into the time alotted for a movie. Reading them is a huge treat to avail yourself of one day.

:) Thanks guys. I wrote most of them down once, but that is as far as it ever went. Suffic it to say, there are some of the most mortifying moments in my life....lol

It was sick Eyes. It is awfull what you had to do tobe considered a *vrtuous* woman...one whom was spiritually sharp and mature. I hated what I had to do, but I didn`t dare disobey God and not keep my commitment. I didn`t dare try to keep the child and risk trying to live life without God`s protection. I couldn`t live with the shame of having let him down. I couldn`t live without the support and protection of the house hold. All of that so called *freedom* just put us into horrble bondage.

When I got pregnant on the wow field, I assumed of course that I had blown it past all possibility of redemption.... that I had to leave and did so. I was sought out and taken to the lc`s. I was told in no uncertain terms... that the *sin* wasn`t in HAVING sex ...only if I allowed the pregnancy to interfere with the commitment/promise/vow that I had made to God. I was stunned that sex was not viewed as taboo...that it wasn`t any big deal at all...it only became a big deal if I didn`t deal with my *little problem*

Why do I keep coming back??? I keep coming back because I think that all of you ar so awsome. Greetings from the beautifull upper penninsula of michigan :) I am camping and fishing for the next week or two .... but left the gorgeous lake to come all the way into town for my G.S. fix :) . I appreciate each of you and the valid points that you present that continue to facillitate my understanding, healing and growth. Thank you each and every one who has shown me such kindness and support....espescially on this thread. I will try to do better with my communication to avoid future derailments. Love, Cathy

I stand corrected oakspear sir. In addition to awarding me my doctorate, you bestowed upon me the most prestigious title *Mistress of Darkness* :) To YOU I will stand approved, lest you strip me of my honor.

Stop reading things into my post that are not there. You will either get what I am saying or you won`t. Nothing was said about right or wrong evil or not. There are people that will identify with me and who will understand my meaning.....there are people who wont pure and simple. By the same token....there are people for whom your posts will ring true....there are people for whom they will be meaningless. No right or wrong, just how you interact with people where people are at, and what you bring to the table here. I want you to leave me alone PERIOD because you are seemingly unable to discuss the topic at hand with extranious personal attacks that derail the thread. I have respectfully asked you several times now to leave me alone because your personal bias apparently prevents you from reading and understanding the points that I make without applying some evil twist. Again....make your OWN points without misrepresenting me or mine.

:) Thanks Ham. I appreciate your support in spite of my being grammatically challenged :) I`ll say this....that I am through standing approved before anybody ever again....that I refuse to be intimidated into silence for any reason....even if my writing skills are not up to snuff. (I feel like the little twiggy that is being told to sit down and shut up because I am not spiritual enough...all over again) I have spent entirely too many years of my life trying to be what everybody else THOUGHT I should. Another wonderful thing about being here has been to sift through all of the layers of learned behaviors and manipulated thought processes to finally finding out who *I* am and learning that person isn`t so bad....that the things that I like and enjoy and what I think is important has merit....maybe even learing to like that person a little......and not have a neurotic need to for evry thought to be tailor made to suit somebody ELSES definition of what is approved or appropriate... I think that through all of the years here of exploring our teachings, examining what we believe, why we behave the way we do....etc...somewhere in all of that I have finally found *me* Somebody I haven`t seen in decades. All I know is that I thank God for the way he works through the people here at this site to be a part of one anothers healing. What each of us brings to the table at an ex way site is up to us individually. Whether it be healing or tearing down and hurt. I only know that I love you guys and this place.

I neither want nor need your respect Jean. My thoughts are of my own journey to understanding. I will not tailor my post to generate your approval. Those that get it will, those that don`t won`t ...shrug

Johnj, I didn`t know that you were here reading this stuff. I want to say that I know you don`t do what you do for the praise, but I can only hope that you can understand what putting those first hand testimonies out there for people to read of the cruel nature, of the debauchery indulged in by these people we were taught were God`s representatives. Without these eye witness accounts of the true spiritual nature of these men....many of us would be lost forever, trying desperately to make faulty doctrine work..doomed to repeated failures , only blaming ourselves for our lack of believing, deperately wondering what door we allowed satan in to have such difficulties. In reading those first hand testimonies...we are faced with the brutal truth of these leaders true natures...that they are untrustworthy, that their doctrine was not THE word of God for our day and time. It isn`t until we come to grips with these uncomfortable truths that we can stop blaming ourselves for failure...condemning ourselves ... that we can finally begin our journey towards wholeness. I can only thank you, thank paw and thank paul allen for making all of this information available to us who were still trying desperately to be pleasing to God. You guys did more than just move on with your own lives after learning of the deception. You made it available for so many thousands of the rest of us to recieve healing and deliverance. I see God at work through the efforts of you folks. Thank you.

Groucho...I was at waydale in those early days (as cathy) I read trans chat after it had closed. I was always drawn to your posts.... In my way brain...I was shocked that you were so harsh...so so everything that we were not supposed to be as good little believers....lol ....Yet everything that you wrote...as difficult as it was for me to accept ....as much as it jarrde me to the bone.....made so much sense. I loved your posts, though they rattled me every time I read them....lol It was like being nailed between the eyes every time :) I think that is what is so special about this place.....It really is like being on a journey....we all just seem to be at different points in our travels... the folks who have traveled this path before us is in turn shining a light back to reveal the trail minimalise OUR difficulty of fumbling along in the dark. The journey of realization from thinking twi is the greatest thing since sliced bread to the gradual dawning of understanding the depths of deception...to the down right hypocracy and cruelty of those who demanded our lives and allegiance. In my mind it is a journey from bondage to freedom and wholeness. Thanks Groucho, hills bro as well...excathdra, dot, cat cup and so many many others who have had the courage to tell it like it was all of these years...Those of you who have seen the ugly under belly of the monster that twi kept hidden from the rest of us. It isn`t untill one comes to grips with the true nature of the men and ministry that we can recognise the unhealthy aspects and begin to recover. It isn`t untill others come forth and tell what happened that we can realise that ir wasn`t just *me* That I didn`t fail because of my lack of spirituality or having blown it. Thank you all.

Gosh how heart breaking :( How unconscionable the actions of these men towards young girls who were simply hungry to know God. I find the deliberate defamation, the slandering and assault on these girls when it was feared that they might let their dirty little secret out... the deliberate attempt to drive them to suicide....so far from my understanding. This was MORE than just a small moral problem of a christian who occasionally slips.....this is wholesale evil in my book. Thank God for the people who speak up....for the people who finally shed light on this evil so that folks can know and understand that it wasn`t just me.

Awsom awsom posts you guys...wonderful, outstanding demonstration of why THIS particular ex way site draws us all back time and time again. It would seem that each of us has a unique insight, an understanding aquired during the journey down the various paths that God has led us since our departure from twi. Each of us has a uniquely individual view point that perhaps can minister or reach another person in a way that nobody else possibly could. I think about the old adage God has no hands but ours... Shoot...I only know that I am thankful for this web site and deeply grateful for each of you and what you have meant to me through the years as I struggled towards reclaiming my real self and life :) You guys make me cry.

Not incapable, but am at a loss as to how to defend myself from personal attacks without it ending up in the soap opera forum yet again.......thus burying an otherwise informative thread. Secondly, I shouldn`t HAVE to constantly defend myself from one who regards themself as a christian .....a brother or sister in Christ. I am at loss to understand why one thinks that this behavior is admirable by any stretch of the imagination. I can only assume it is the taint of twi doctrine that makes this inexcusable behavior some how acceptable.

A victim with poor grammatical skills THANK you very much :)

Happy birthday dear lady! I hope that you have a great day :)

I see what you mean Temple lady...lol Well said way sider...WELL said :) Hmmm indeed Bramble.

Thanks Temple Lady, I think you made some valid observations, and excellent points. I really appreciate the insight, as I have been at a loss as to how to address this ongoing problem.

Eyes not emotion?? I suppose one would have to shut down ones very heart and humanity to ignore the poigniant stories of suffering endured at the hands of twi leaders one reads there. There are reasons that these men felt that it was ok to commit the atrocities that are shared on JJ`s sight. I don`t think that doctrinal soundness or spiritual healthiness are some of them. The stories related are true, one can only draw the conclusion that they will.... I think that it is wrong to accuse Dr. Juedes of not being accurate because of where the evidence that is contained in his web site points.

I never saw anything on his web sight concerning twi that was incorrect. Uncomfortable when considering that a group that I once whole heartedly endorsed and represented perhaps, but not inaccurate.

My bad, I assumed that you desired interaction. I guess that I don`t understand what makes you think that it is all right to treat people this way, particularly if one views themselves as a christian. I ought to have recognised the arrogance and nasty behavior of one still contaminated by twi doctrine.