rascal

Gulp .... maybe I am a little more like Luna than I am willing to admit

My problem is, that most genuine christians make mistakes....very few though habitually chose to indulge in cruel evil behavior that is so destructive to their fellow saints. Drugging and rape, drunkeness and adultery, wholesale destruction of peoples lives....these are behaviors that most people are just not tempted to succumbe to I think that there is a reason that these men and women behaved without a conscience. I think that the answere is in galations 5. I don`t think that a knowledge of the scriptures precludes one from being very very evil. I think that *it`s the word the word and nothing but the word* is a distraction from our real spiritual obligations Jesus set forth.

Thanks Jonny. I am glad that we can remain civil in our discussions and while examining our diverging view points. I think that there is much that we can learn by listening.

Jonny ...those men were adopted, they weren`t of the spirit....today, now that spirit is available...as christians, genuine christians, the spirit within us makes us a different being, sets a different standard than was there for those men of the flesh. There is a different standard for us...I agree that vpw and his leaders were on equal footing with those of the flesh...I wonder if the were ever of the spirit...genuine christians. Galatians says no, and that they, those that manifest those fruit of the flesh that we KNOW vpw did.... have no inheritance.

Johnny, lusts I understand, infedelities I understand shortcomings I can forgive.......but the evil went far deeper than that. A willingness to destroy anyone who wouldn`t play ball. Slaughter of anyones reputation who might spill the beans. I am talking of a 17 yr old girl here whom vpw alienated from her family and threw off of the wow field with accusations of possession....funnily enough a week or so AFTER she refused him sex on the bus. Jonny that goes beyond the pail of minor shortcomings....there isn`t just a single story...it wasn`t just vp.... I have no idea how much the drugs and alcohol plays into allowing things to go so bad.....but it wasn`t even just the adultery and savaging of reputations here....we have first hand accounts AND confirmation from top leadership of the drugged drinks of unsuspecting teenagers, for the purpose of sexual relations. Please please understand this isn`t about me getting my panties in a twist about people falling short. Yeah we all do....God knows I blew it this week HUGE and because of me...my dog died. But THIS ...what these men did ...is s an indulgence in evil so heinous, that I have serious doubts whether a genuine christian could DO this to a brother or sister.

Amen!! I think that we were used in a horrible way. Not only to mask the evil activities, but even worse to lead people into the snare. Those of us who led with our pure hearts and selfless examples...our abiding love for God and each other....and worse yet....led other innocents into the snare to be consumed. Suspiscions were disarmed, internal alarms ignored, because of the examples that we set. I know WHY we did it. I know we had the best of intentions.....but the bitterness of realising that in truth for all of our efforts to live for God....we were leading people into and disguising darkness....is at time overwhelming.

You paint with a mighty broad brush there concerning other peoples positions and beliefs concerning twi JL. Maybe vp believed the whole schpiel himself...maybe he was the most greatly decieved of us all. I see no place in the scriptures that actually say that false prophets or wolves in sheep clothing necessarily realise that they are false. All I know that with drunkeness, drugging and rape and adultery and destroying of lives laid at his feet...to name but a few....it gives serious rise to the question of whether or not he was ever a genuine Christian. Certainly if one is to believe what the scriptures say about men of the flesh and fruit of the spirit.

OK, the information IS out there....if you ever desire the truth. One thing to remember.... Satan wasn`t any less evil just because he was a scriptural master.....ergo neither does scriptural mastery make vp/lcm/geer/jim jones/david koresche trustworthy or even a genuine Christian....the evidence is to the contrary. The only way we can determine for sure whether someone is of the flesh or of the spirit.... is to do as the scriptures require us and examine the fruit of one another to determine HOW to recognise one another, to identify false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing. To bury your head in the bible oblivious to all else IS much easier....but really does not fall under the injunctions that Jesus charged us with.

What I have a problem with.....is that in protecting people....the true nature of twi was hidden from those very people they wished to protect....in hind sight...in spite of our best intentions...it just wasn`t honest. If vpw had plastered the truth as a disclaimer in the front of every way mag...Warning: Involvement in our ministry will require 10 percent of your income, absolute unquestioning obedience to any leadership, giving up all desires and activities not deemed profitable for moving the word, give up all serious pets, in some cases if you are young and pretty your special ministry might be required in servicing the men of God sexually...failure at any time to please your leader can result in permanent removal from all friends , family and co workers....monthly examinations with a microscope up your nether regions concerning personal finances are required....God Bless you :) We`d have run fast and far and never looked back People assumed that twi was a spiritually wholesome place, that it was a safe place to seek God because they saw the earnest christians that were doing their best to serve God with integrity and honesty. Who could know that once moving to a new area beyond the protection of those valiant souls....that we would be faced with abuse/corruption/cruelty/broken families/broken hearts and in some tragic instances death? I know WHY we did it...but I don`t know if it was a necessarily a good thing....evil was allowed to hide behind us...masquerading as a spiritually healthy, a safe organization. I trusted twi because of those leaders that shielded me from the truth.

Deciderator, please be absolutely certain that the charges I level against these men are well documented. I did not post them lightly or for shock value. The information is available, it is yours to be had with very little effort. The question is....does the truth matter to you? Only you can decide if you believe that the spiritual nature of these men contaminated the scriptures they lay down as a foundation. Trust me, if the information that I presented was not factual, you would have had a half a dozen people jumping all over me at this point calling me a liar and exagerator of facts. Nobody contests that these events and many worse happened at the hands of vp...of lcm...of geer and so many many others....any more .....where the difference in opinions lie is the conclusions that we draw. The pfal/twi/vpw fans think that these minor shortcomings don`t contaminate the end product. I contend that their actions are listed in galatians 5 as those of somebody who is of the flesh who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God....scriptures are very clear...no wiggle room. I have a little problem with trusting ANY idea that men of the flesh would put forward on ANY spiritual matter. You have a choice here. Find out if what I said concerning your teachers are true...or continue to remain in blissfull ignorance....then depending on your choice....the next step ..you must decide once aware of the entire unplatable truth...whether that affects your perception of spiritual matters. I hope that you do not read me as antagonistic, or mean spirited. I am neither, I am simply earnest in my desire that people know the entire truth.

I`m sorry that you didn`t wolf. I noticed the poll on mugglenet that most people seemed to like it....but that there were some like you who were dissapointed. I guess that I am not very analylitical. I just enjoyed following where the story went. I spent most of my time trying to not go nuts and fly through the book at one sitting (I finally gave up after five chapters and finished it lol) I mostly wanted for snape to be good, I wanted to know that there was a real plan why Dumbledor had to die...I wanted to know why Dobby was important....I loved that Neville finally came into his own with his gran... I loved reading the back ground on Dumbledor....his family, what made him the guy that he was. I loved the developing of his brother, how so different yet still on the same side....I was infuriated that rita skeeter was allowed to trash him...in short I was completely engrossed and involved with the story Maybe it lagged in the middle, but it seemed necessary information....What I haven`t figured out yet was why they didn`t just dissaperate from the dragon rather than waiting for it to get close to the ground. The overwhelming feeling that I had when I finished the very last page and closed the book was just wishing that I could Thank the author for a real treat.....in my opinion a once in a life time pleasure. I seriously do not see myself ever getting involved with a series or story this enthusiastically again....and to think...I only started reading it to determine it`s suitability for my children and ensure that there was no chance of spiritual contamination....lol

Hmmm

Wrong again Oldies....THIS thread is about things learned in pfal AND DO I still believe them. The spiritual nature of the men who taught and believed pfal IS a major factor concerning WHY I don`t believe what I was taught....ie a valid point to be presented. The discussion that you are trying to hijack between deciderator and myself, is concerning whether or not the point of *it`s the word it`s the word, it`s the word* is a valid biblical truth, or even a spiritually healthy concept. I think that there is ample evidence presented in the lives of the men who lived and died by this code to contend that assertion.

Deciderator, I don`t mind if you call me honey, though I am sure that you meant that sarcastically (I am from the south too lol :) ) but just so we are clear....I cannot recall referring to you as *dear*. You are at a point here....you are being offered the chance for the next step in spiritual growth and understanding. It is your chance. We have all been where you are now....we have all had to face this choice....whether to take that next step, whether to face the difficult truth concerning the debauchery and cruelty of twi leaders. You can learn the truth, the true spiritual natures of the people who instructed you, who layed the flawed foundation of your basic understanding....or you can retreat back to where you feel safe and warm, protected by that which is familiar to you. Your choice, nobody can make it for you. The only person limited is you. Oldies, I am sorry that you find the evidence of the spiritual nature of those whom you still hold in high regard disturbing...truly...but that will not prevent me from speaking the truth which you wish to remain hidden or inconsequential. It happened, they did it......it ain`t ever going away...I think it is a big hairy deal and I don`t intend to EVER stop talking about it

These things DID happen to your brothers and sisters in christ ....some of it documented in courts of law, many many instances of first hand accounts have been reported here and on other sites and corroborated. John Lynn himself confirmed that the young women had been drugged and raped. Posters (note plural here) here and other sites reported being given drinks by your man of God (I say that with the utmost sarcasm) Geer only to later awake being raped by vpw. Is that too graphic? Do you care about the lives destroyed? Do you care about the women who were marked and avoided who were declared posessed and so slandered that their own families would have nothing to do with them by the time vp or lcm were done because they seemed likely to tell or didn`t cooperate??? HOW can a genuine christian, commit these atrocities??? I don`t think they can...I don`t think that the word the word and nothing but the word makes you a Christian, a man of the spirit, or even a person of character and decency. Again I say ... there is much more necessary to the christian walk than an idolatry of the scripture, which I believe was evidenced by the men who were unspeakably evil to the innocent entrusted to that ministry. Scriptural mastery doesn`t impress me one bit, Charity, peace, long suffering gentleness meekness, loving God loving your neighbor ...THESE things are what we were told identified our spiritual brothers and sisters...I notice that not once is knowledge of the scriptures listed a s a fruit of one of the spirit. I do notice that in spite of the word the word and nothing but the word wierwille/lcm/geer had no problem with indulging in rampant alcoholism fornication, adultery, anger, lust etc ...(JUST to name a few) all clearly activities that identify someone who is of the flesh. I think that you are earnest and genuine in your understanding of your responsibility...I just think that there is a lot more to the eqaution than you have been taught. We have more responsibility than scriptural study to one another.

*The word the word and nothing but the word* OBVIOUSLY wasn`6t enough or the men spouting that proclamation wouldn`t have been drugging raping, destroying, driving people to death with impunity. These guys DID this stuff all the while that it was a-ok because THEY had *THE* word and that was all that mattered. Jesus and the scripture said otherwise.

Mistakes? What he did was callculated, deliberate, calloused and cruel. He embraced evil willingly and chose to abide in darkness. To me it seems like choices pure and simple not in the same category as somebodies occasional *mistakes*

Well the ONLY thing that you care about is the word....ok...but is THAT what Jesus said was important? Oh please...he said to love God and love your neighbor....all of that word and study is nothing without charity. As far as screwing up? Yeah we all do ...but not all of us drug and rape and steal from the very believer given in our care :( I think that you might still be beguilled into not caring about your brothers and sisters suffering.

Maybe what we do isn`t for personal profit.

I just really really enjoyed it. I have been re reading it and marveling at what I missed the first time. I got kind of chilled when I realised that BOTH Harry and voldy were stunned when he tried to kill him....I mean I knew that the thing was a piece of him...I guess I figured it was just one of the horcrux pieces....when I re read and realised that was all that was left of him...what he would be like forever...that Harry tried to get him to show some remorse....whew. That Nevill got to kill the snake...I loved what a comfort Luna was....how she ended up being pretty special after all. I also teared up...when harry referred to his son whom he had named after snape....the man he had hated for so many years ...as the bravest man he had ever known. I was suprised at how sad I was at dobby`s death...how tickled I was at Kreachers turn around, how I loved that Nevill had become a leader. My daughter and I marveled at how emotionally attached we had become to these made up fairy tail creatures and characters....maaaaaaaaaaan I am sorry that it was a dissapointment to you ww.

Deciderator...I am not trying to make you uncomfortable, I just want to try to explain that sometimes there is a bigger picture that you might not understand. I think that if you honestly understood who and WHAT VPW was...if you understood who and WHAT Geer was ....WHAT they taught and ok`d/instilled in leaders....quite honestly it might stun you. You might realise that these men were not what you imagined, that the *word* that they taught you contaminated. Does the idea of drugging and raping young teenaged women offend you? does the casual destruction of lives, the people who died at the hands of these men offend you? Does forced abortion? Forced sexual servitude?? Yeah the word they taught ...it is great the fellow that designed the class (and I am not talking about vpw was a genuine christian) , but it also has subtle nastiness woven in, stuff that in the end damages your walk. If you ever cared to be honest, if your thirst for the truth is genuine, I exhort you as a sister in Christ to set aside your instilled predjudices and give your bretheren abiding in the same body of Christ a chance to minister to you, to bring you up to speed with a n accurate understanding of the truth that you thought you knew.

Allowing innocents to be decieved and ensnared when you know better...when you have viewed first hand the evil and barely escaped the bondage.... is cowardly and totally against what Jesus taught in the scriptures concerning the spiritual battle my friend. Nothing personal, go on about your happy life, be oblivious to the ongoing suffering at twi`s hands.... pretending that the lives at risk, those who may be ensnared in the future are not your concern because you find that confronting the darkness personally distatefull. No problem, but please don`t try to point your finger of judgement and condemnation at those whom see it as their spiritual/moral duty to warn the unwary, to extend a hand to those still entrapped with the fears that keep them enslaved in the darkness that they abide in in twi. Our duty is clear, whether you can see it or understand it brother. People need to KNOW what we have seen People need to KNOW that God does not require them to submit to evil men and false doctrines. People need to KNOW that God loves them and does not require them to live serving an evil organization...that there is blessing and joy and growth and fellowship away from those who would presume to keep them in bondage. THAT is why GS needs to be hear and THAT is why we need to keep telling our stories of abuse.....THAT is why we can never ever shut up.

Precisely Eyes.... The wierd thing is....I am at peace when I have to make a stand now...you bring to mind the times that I had to stand up to my spouse in a dramatic situation, and even though I was right, that lives were at stake....I was terrified of going against him because of being a woman that lacked virtue....of losing God`s protection...of death for my lack of meekness. Everybody always knew better than me, even if I did per chance manage to stick by my guns, I was miserable, guilt ridden and consumed with fear. Wow...I`d forgotten...thanks.

As far as your marriage and stalking scenario??? What if that ex marriage partner was known for poisoning those they got close to...what if they were knowingly spreading aids to unsuspecting partners??...what if they were a known pedophile and were stalking unwary innocents???....damned right a warning would be in order for possible future victims....it would be ones moral, not to mention spiritual obligation. Just to be content to move on once one has escaped from the grips of evil....to carry on ones life without a thought to those left in bondage behind, for those possible future victims is cowardly and unconscionable.

A better understanding of the word did nothing to keep twi leaders from committing the most evil of atrocities on innocent Christians. I think we`d damned well better figure out if a *better knowledge of the word* is all that`s necessary for a genuine Christian walk. I think that a better/deeper understanding of the word as stressed in twi in many cases became a substitute for the genuine christian heart/character/morals/spirit etc. I think that the arrogance that was aquired from that deeper knowledge in many cases prevents the humbleness and meekness necessary to walk as a genuine christian. In short... that deeper knowledge as interpreted in twi was not necessarily a good thing. Jesus warned the believers extensively concerning those whom would harm them...yes even those who knew scripture....and yes in very unflattering terms. Sorry that it makes you uncomfortable, but it remains a vital and important job that needs to be done.