rascal

Good lord almighty...I certainly hope that you don`t allow this foolishness to deter you from posting helpfull information in the futrue Catcup. I have no idea why some one would want to call you on the carpet over this stuff.

I guess that I don`t know why you do what you do, and it was foolish of me to surmise.... I only know that it hurts.

Dove, your reasons appear to me to be excuses to shut information and testimony out. Your inability to consider the facts, or to evaluate the information... ...and worse yet your willingness to treat the people presenting the facts with nastiness is caused by something...shrug It could be arrogance and not wanting to be wrong. It could be due to fear and not wanting to be wrong....either way, the implications of wierwille being a man of the flesh, a false prophet are to staggering for you to embrace....so you seem to need to make everyone willing to present information contrary to that which you must believe with callous disregard and at times down right cruelty. This behavior ....this willingness to insult and demean, to deliberately be hurtfull are not the actions of a Christian....period

Dove, I can only assume. It was merely a point to consider. There are only so many reasons why someone would turn a blind eye and hard heart to the testimony that has been presented. It was the least viscious motive that I could come up with to account for you uncharicteristic behavior.

That is what I find troubling. The inferance that the women here ....the women on juedes` site, the women that son of the master ministered to monthly....John Lynn, Ralph D, so many many ALL have lied because the accounts don`t fit with what one wishes to believe :( I think that fear is what generates the meanness ....fear of finding out that we were wrong.

First off Dove, please.... I have seen a real effort on behalf of several of the posters to present this information in a non antagonistic way...honest to God, trying hard to give you and others the benefit of the doubt. Trying to respectfully present their pov. Many of your responses have been spitefull and uncalled for. Do you really want to know what I think? Or is it just another chance for you to smack me down?

Afraid.

Thank you for taking the time to post the above information. It explaines much.

Well Bumpy, I guess that I thought it was a pretty good idea at first. I have a lot of stories that I have shared in chat and around the campfire that have been shared through the years...As you explain yourself further though... there is a feeling of meanness in what you suggest....like an *in your face* to those whom are sharing their account of abuse suffered. There is room and use for both. I understand that you are sick of the negative storis of horrendous abuse. But have you considered that maybe, just maybe that is isn`t you this time that is necessarily being helped? Can you hold your nose in distaste and tolerate yet ANOTHER abuse story ...if in relating these accounts someone is helped?? Yeah it comes up a couple times a year, but each time there are new people that are reading and being delivered....there is a person that finally is able to share their story when they find out after all of these years that , Hey it wasn`t just me being a loser. There are people who weren`t here to read these accounts 2 yrs ago 4 yrs ago 6 yrs ago. For you and others...you don`t need it....ok....please please understand though...that it is of value to someone else, and don`t deny them that healing, nor dismiss the importance of the ones willing to share their information. It is all part of the body of christ working together. Your idea is a good one, there is something like that in the works, which is probably why the response has been minimal.

Snort...not that you didn`t have a thing to do with it eh Jonny? Maybe sexual predator was a bit strong....but never the less you seem to have imparted your own lack of understanding for the necessity of these topics and compassion regarding the people sharing them. All I can say is that I sure hope that ..... Every time someone like deciderator says that the abuse was alie......hopefully there will be people to stand up and give testimony. Every time someone claims that the women either deserved it or could have chosen differently.....hopefully someone will provide the accounts and information that show that drugging was rampant with the non compliant. Every time someone claims that even if true...it wasn`t a big deal and folks should just get over it...HOPEFULLY there will be someone with the courage to stand up and testify to the life long impact and struggle to over come the devistating actions of these men. HOPEfully in all of the stories, people can come to grips with the reality of the toxicity of twi and the need for carefull re evaluation of the doctrines that even today damage our lives. Hopefully you will never be able to shame people into silence ever again. People need to know the truth in order to begin the healing. WHo the heck are you to deny them that??

Wow Sunesis, great points. I once had an epiphany ...that in twi...with all of it`s accuracy, and all of the physicals in perfect order mania .....didn`t prevent some of the most staunchest adherants from becoming the most evil people I have ever met. I think that there must be something very important in addition to accurate biblical understanding in order to be a spiritually healthy person.

I agree bramble. At least that is what helped me years ago.

you left out visciously pschotic pervert :( I understand however, that he IS held in high regard with of the *upbeat* and *positive* crowd.

I think biblical accuracy is relative to the person`s understanding foundation...shrug As we saw in twi...scriptures can be *accurately interpreted to mean just about any idea that the teacher wants to propound. I think Jesus said it all....Love God and Love your neighbor.....too many times I have seen scriptural accuracy lead us away from that.

Oh there now Johniam....THAT was positive and upbeat :) Thank you for that bit of edification...just exactly the sort of thing one would expect to hear from their brother in Christ ...snort

Well then she SHOULDN`T have ASKED us if we STILL believed it johniam. She shouldn`t have asked if that was not her intention. Cid shouldn`t have accused me of lying if he didn`t want to see the proof that I wasn`t. ....and LASTLY...it`s pretty disturbing the savage viciousness demonstrated to your brothers and sisters by you supposedly *positive* and *upbeat* folks ...I don`t understand how you can claim this after what you guys have said and done to people here.

The thread turned into an attack when I simply answered the question posed by the author of the thread Jonny.....ie....* DO I believe it*? I answered in response, to a single blanket statement made by a single poster ....politely, giving my reasons as to why I disagreed with his premiss that he was scolding people with..... You are one of the ones making the false statements about the discussion at hand and why it took the turn it did.....and using that to slam people as not being able to say anything nice about twi. That isn`t honest and that isn`t what this is about.

Excathedra, thank you for telling...thank you for having the courage...as difficult as it was...... thank you for not letting these guys shut you down. Your testimony is what set me free from the bondage of false doctrine. You were the first to have the courage to do it. I know that it doesn`t help the pain of what you have endured...I can only thank you for being instrumental in freedom for me and my family. Dot, thanks for making it graphically real. People need to know and understand what pigs these people were...I think it is necessary in order to finally allow ourselves to start examining the doctrine that has been so enslaving. Catcup, thanks for providing the testimony of your families suffering, it corroborates the initial accounts and makes it so much more difficult for the bullies to dismiss the first hand testimony they clamoured to have..and now suddenlt isn`t good enough. Had you people not come forth who actually knew these men.....many of us would be trapped the rest of our lives trying to live up to the rediculous standards, and accepting responsibility for defeat and failure....in bondage mentally even after leaving the group......never daring to consider that the *principles* applied might be flawed. Gentlemen, thanks for showing that chivalry is NOT dead.

You know, the impact on these girls seems to have been pretty significant and life altering. I find it difficult to read of people trying to pass it off like it was no big deal really.... I say, a genuine christian just simply does not DO these things.

((((Excathedra))) Words fail. I am so sorry that you were targeted by this amoral predator :(

Thanks for your perspective ex way corps.

Seared conscience comes to mind :(

Lifted, why does it bother you so much??? I must assume that you are referring to me...and me refusing to give you names of people that wished to remain annonymous. IF they had wanted others to know, they would have posted themselves to the forums as a whole. You put me in a very bad position then. It was also a little unsetteling to be pushed for private information. I explained then, I could not give you the name of source of my information. You just won`t let it drop....the story though I was given permission by the person to relate (because it was so similar to mine) was so personal and embaressing that the person who had shared it with me ASKED that I not reveal their name. Dove and Jonny and Johniam, and oldies calloused regard and cruel behavior is a prime example of exactly WHY she didn`t want her name used. As you have seen here.....a perfect example of personal first hand testimony NOT being good enough for some ..... and the girls whom share it have their reputations, their characters and their judgement brought into question. The fact that they were young, that they trusted their minister, that they were in many cases drugged...that there are multiple first hand accounts that are strikingly similar....it just won`t be enough for a person whom is afraid to question their beliefs. For some, it will NEVER be enough.....THAT was what I told you when you pressed for identities that were not mine to reveal. It kind of bothers me that you keep referring to this year after year like it was some kind of personal insult to you....it wasn`t it was what it was.....Me refusing to breach someone elses trust. I am sorry that my answere has bothered you so. I

It is amazing how many people that you have to make liars in order to be comfortable with your choice to put credence in vpw or his teachings. You have marsha, who was known by several here, you have cat cup, her sister, excathdra, dot matrix, JUST in our little community here, that have given us accounts of their first hand experience with vpw and his lying predatory ways....you have two accounts, (one right here) of teenaged girls waking up in the MIDDLE of sex acts being preformed on them by vp after being given drinks by geer....the whole evening being fogged and confusing....confirmation by top a top leader of drugging and rape (not just once, but that it had been going on a long time) and you have to make these ALL each and every one liars in order to make twi/pfal platable and appear acceptible. You have vp`s successor lcm whom not only have we had first hand accounts of forced sexual servitude, and m&a for non compliances....you have court documentation...of sexual misconduct....you have documentation of cover up of those activities from the current president and various leaders.... Come on....connect the dots guys... GENUINE christians, not to mention ministers do NOT treat people with this kind of calloused disregard. Why do you need so badly to be right in your religion that you must close your eyes, your hearts and your compassion? The word beguiled comes to mind :(

Excathedra, I am so sorry. I don`t understand this insane need to make the victims of these monsters look like the criminals here. I don`t get it, I cannot understand the insane need to portray that filthy human debris....in a positive light:(