rascal

Eyes, that was an awfully nice thing to say....thank you....as a matter of fact I have been referred to as *mama grizzly* a time or two because NOBODY messes with my cubs...lol The picture of yoda by my name is because that is what my kids call me....they say that I am small...diminuative and harmless looking....but push the wrong buttons....mess with somebody in my presence ...and I am a force to be reckoned with...lol I guess that I am pretty intimidating when I finally get wound up.... The thing is...with others ....it is easy to be strong...to see the best in thm......but me...how I feel about me.....it`s like some of us were talking about a line from the movie pretty woman .... It`s easier to believe the lies.... I have no trouble standing up for others.....it is myself that I have difficulty seeing any good in.

Catcup...my midwife used to call me every day after the baby was born....some days all I could do was hyperventillate into the phone.....and she would say *alright..what has he done NOW*???? lol Comments like.....*No cathy, I don`t think Mark is a COMPLETE a$$ hole*...or *nooooo I don`t think that right now is the time (just after the birth of our 7th child lol) to consider leaving him*....:) invariably she would get me laughing....if she couldn`t ...without me asking.....she would drive the hour and a half to my house make me a cup of soothing tea, and rub my back while I tearfully blurted out my woes....I didn`t know why I was so neurotic after my babies were born...I didn`t know why the germaphobia would set in and incapacitate me...I felt like I was hanging on to sanity by the skin of my teeth. SHE was an awsome professional...no doubt skilled in recognizing the ppd ...that you mentioned.......She went way above and beyond the call of duty in caring for me.....I do not know what I would have done without her....she is also the one that badgered me (in a good way) to finally get the pap smear that detected my cervical cancer in time to get it treated. A trained professional to spot the severe reactions from abuse....what a blessing verses the professional that unknowingly further traumatizes an already fragile patient. Cat, I am so glad to have another piece of the puzzle...why my reactions were so strong, why my ppd might have been so severe. It really really helps to know that maybe it wasn`t all just insanity due to hormones being out of whack. Lol ex..you are so gutsy :) WG...I laughed so hard at your mom`s comment about the window washer...that my husband had to come see what was wrong....he belly laughed too for the longest time...we definatly can identify with your mothers comment :)

Good point Dot and tonto...you are right. Excathedra and marsha, I am sorry.

Thank you for allowing me to participate here...I can`t tell you how much it helps me very much to understand why I am this way. Why the intensity of my anxiety attacks and certain triggers. I was afraid that I was intruding here. Your explanation catcup is exactly how my physician treats me....and now I understand why I feel that I can trust this man. Again, I didn`t understand ...I am just glad that I am not alone or completely crazy. Thank you

Aww she is just a bully pure and simple. That was just the most recent example where I allowed someone intimidate me into silence. I don`t know what it is that shuts me down inside and causes me to accept unfair treatment....shrug Maybe it is the whole self image thing...willing to accept and believe what others see and attribute to me..the situation.....instead of listening and believing in myslef and perceptions......I dunno too wierd.

Wow, you are brave ex. When I have been in situations like that I have just frozen in terror. I admire folks that don`t take it. Even now, we have a horrible neighbor who has screamed at my daughter till she cried over something that had nothing to do with her....whom has been in my face over things....I just melt and try to placate. I make myself ill.

God is SO good to me that way as well Ex. Our family doctor is a personal friend and saint...We have the great good fortune to have an orthopedic surgeon as a friend as well. Whenever we have had officious hosp staff not taking care of us correctly and it has happened...there was a horrendous situation where the nurses had not given my son the medicine he required after surgery...(she had treated him roughly and the iv had come loose leaking his vital meds all over the bed) .and to be able to pick up and dial my ortho`s home number from memory sure dropped some jaws and got some heads rolling. Same with my dentist...I was terrified...I was sick and shaking crying the first visit...I thought I would vomit...and this big HUGE black man came in...pluncked down beside me and began asking for prayer for a family member.... Not only was the man a devcout and caring christian...I was tickled at what I was sure was an answere to my fervent prayers....that the man presented him as a brother in Christ immediately.....it is difficult to explain...but suffice it to say that he ministered to me more than just in my mouth at that visit. We thoroughly enjoy our visits...both of us now...my mouth seems secondary in the considerations. My family physician...lol is a hoot...we talk a few miniutes about medical stuff and spend 15 miniutes talking about horses each others children and spouse...etc :) Sorry for the tangeant...but in thinking about what ex said.......I was touched with the enormous effort (I believe) of God to place people in my life that can take care of my family without further trauma. That understand my anxiety attacks. More than once my dr has said.....*no cathy...I don`t think that you will get rabies...or are crazy...or your child has cancer....(pick your ailment)...I can however prescribe something so that you don`t feel so anxious about these things :) Lol (((Abi))) That sounds pretty calloused on that womans part...How DARE she??? Time to find a new dentist....that is one thing I HAVE learned in the last 20 yerars...we DON`T have to put up with mean people.

Ditto what Abi said :) I guess I had no idea why I became so nutty about stuff outside the relm of hospitals and dr.s offices. When you told about the dentists office Abi, it seemed to make sense that the impact of my treatment by those I trusted could have effects in areas outside of the medical field. Like I said to cat...it seems like the dots are being connected....once I recognise this stuff...I can get a grip on it. Thanks guys for helping me to understand.

All I know is that 6 weeks later when the hospital did it`s courtesy call back and asked me if I was pleased with the treatment recieved....I told them what had happened. I was very carefull in my description of what happened and left some of the worst of it out because I still had to take myself and the baby back to this dr for our 12 week check up (it never occured to me that I didn`t have to go) and was terrified that he would find out that I said something bad. I got another phone call within 24 hours with an apology and an offer to waive the 500 dollar deductable that we owed after my insurance company paid. Seems like they must have thought that there was something wrong with the way I was treated and not just an over reaction or non compliance on my part......even when I sugar coated it. :(

Maybe my experience has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am sorry...I just identified with the terror of losing control, and thought maybe there was a corellation. :(

I am sorry Abby. You brought to mind when I delivered my 1st child. Unbeknownst to me....it was a teaching hospital. I was held down while one intern after another forced themselves inside of me during contractions (horribly painfull and upsetting) .... as the baby was desending...I don`t know how many of them there were...but Mark says at least 4. I was an object for study...for their learning...I had no say so over who was doing what to me...The contractions were less than 45 seconds apart and the babies head was engaged when I arrived....there was a nurse who had a stack of papers at least a couple of inches high that she was trying to read to me and get me to sign during the contractions and with these men taking their turns.... I absolutely freaked OUT not being allowed any say so as to what was happening to me...I had filled out all of my pre admit forms and been through the hosp lamaz ect...did everything I knew to be prepared.... It was terrifying .... my dr arrived very angry, I suppose maybe because he had just left and had a waiting room full of patients... I don`t know...I only know that he entered the room and snarled at me that I wasn`t behaving, and if I didn`t want to cooperate that I just needed to leave..now mind you the babies head was engaged..I could not walk...I begged mark to carry me out...I pleaded with him crying to take me away....he couldn`t even begin to carry me...we were both stuck in this nightmare. The Dr. was brutal, now without examining me, or attending to the baby that was coming....he marched over and held me down and inserted an iv with such force that my arm blackened from elbo to wrist over the next week.... The experience was so traumatizing to me...to lose control over what happened to me...to have all of these people using me as an object to further their education...to have this man that I looked to for the health and well being of myself anmnd my unborn child to snarl at me and insist that I was not cooperating when I was doing my very best to coomply.....it wasn`t like they asked...or even were doing it to help take care of me...I was just an interesting case study. No this isn`t rape...but something was broken that day... it is as close as I can come to understanding what a rape victim goes through.... I just know that after that...I had 6 more children...but was terrified beyond words to go to the hospital...I had the second one at home with no ones help but marks....I told him that I would rather die at home because the prospect of the hospital was so upsetting...I was too frightened of losing control again....I was too afraid to see a doctor for prenatal for fear that he would know what I was planning... Over the intervening years, I met some mid wives that assisted with the prenatal care and I even re entered the hosp for a couple of them...but only with the solemn promise that the mid wife and mark would keep all medical staff away from me. I cannot explain why I am so adamant about staying away from hospitals...I cannot explain the depthe of distrust I have for any physician outside of the two that are personal family friends that care for us gently and kindly...aware of our deep mistrust and need to have absolute say so in our treatments. This mistrust and strong reaction spills over into many other areas. All I can tell you is that the depths of anxiety that you described abi...I have been there...No I haven`t been raped, so I can only understand a fraction of the intensity that you all describe....and that in and of itself is overwhelming. The necessity for say so in treatment and control over decisions...and reaction to loss of control is intense. I just understand dimly why a person who had been raped would feel this way.

I`m huggin eyes :) I hear you Tonto...and am right there. I think that my anger and indignation for the callousness and at times downright cruelty displayed has given way to a real saddness. After all I have seen, when people finally pulled off the gloves and showed what was underneath their *company manners* as we call it home....I think that the unrecognized damage wrought by thw ministry and doctrine of pfal is pretty profound. It makes it alright to treat savagely anybody that we personally disagree with....it makes it ok to ignore a brother or sisters pain if in acknowledging it threatens the perception one wishes to hold of twi doctrine. Pfal teachings make it ok to ignore clear biblical instruction, clear evidence as to ones spiritual nature, how we are to recognise, and most importantly how we are to treat one another.... ALL in order to support that which we WISH to believe. Twi/pfal seems to have profoundly damaged to the point where we seem to believe that it is ok to act meaner than a snake.........it`s like some kind of vital swith has been turned off ......whether it is the way vpw lied...drugged and raped our sisters ...the cruel way in which believers were treated by leaders...or even the way we treat one another here today. I really think that in embracing pfal, that we are drawn off track, but have instilled in us the arrogance and illusion that we are spiritual and right....so we don`t see the need to *fix* what is wrong.

Guess you oughtta read the entire thread to see how it evolved to that before making up your mind then eh fella? If you didn`t notice there were two parts to the thread title...*and DO you still believe it* :) Most of the discussion has been as it pertains to the second part of the question and why. I guess when people behave in a totally reprehensible manner and resort to personal attacks then they can tend to inspire the disgust voiced in the afor mentioned post.

Well kindda silly to discount a threads value when you haven`t read it isn`t it? Doreen had a choice to participate or not. God is working to heal hearts and lives right here...that is a good thing ...whether it follows a single posters intentions or not. :) I`d hug you any day ((((((Eyes)))))

Wow...more dots connected...thanks cat. This explains some things.

((((Bow))) maybe NOW you understand the terror for me when you droven off with Jesse that night? It didn`t matter that I had YOUR child, A stranger had my daughter and was driving away ... when you didn`t turn at the right place....were headed fro the hiway...and I couldn`t catch you....lol can you understand now my over reaction??? Lol...it goes beyond being protective. I am glad that you mentioned this because everyone has really thought my neurotic over protection of the kiddoes was funny and I felt stupid. It helps knowing why I do stuff.

Doreen isn`t the only person here. In case you haven`t noticed, other folks have been helped. It`s a good thing :)

THAT isn`t what gets posters villified...it`s when in defense of those doubts one must resort to bad behavior, name calling and nastiness. They bring it all upon themselves....don`t kid yourself.

Dot....you always seem to believe the best in people.

Sunesis...thank you. Oldies, most of us wouldn`t have considered meeting with our minister *in harms way* Most of us, even if suspiscious wouldn`t have dreamed that the drink being served was drugged. Most of us believed our minister when he said that he had all answeres to life and Godliness and that he could heal us. Call it naevity, call it a last ditch hope for healing and peace, call it a foolish willingness to believe the best of every one....but please stop accusing marsha of having done something wrong. If it wasn`t a big deal...something that these women wanted...but needed the drugged drinks enough to relax and enjoy....then I do not believe that the damage wrought would have been so significant or bear life long impact. I don`t understand focusing on marsha instead of being absolutely outraged over what her trusted minister did.

(((abi))) I just read your account. I am so sorry .

Bumpy..why is it ok to be so mean? I honestly don`t get it. Attack the ideas presented, offer a differing view point...but why is it ok to try to insult, demean and hurt people? I want to understand why *love God and love your neighbor* doesn`t apply unless the other person is in complete agreement with you. I gather from your posts that you have been itching to get your pound of flesh for some time now...just looking for a chance to smack folks down....I just don`t understand this mindset coming from a supposed christian.

((((Bow))) my friend, I am sorry. I had a neighbor that was a child molester...no, I wasn`t raped, just fondled whenever he could get his hands on me...ew gross...scarey...but I wasn`t physically hurt (His wife was usually never far away, I think that kept him from going further) Not that this compairs in ANY way with what you experienced....I would not presume to understand how tough it was for you.....but I did want to confirm that this stuff can make you insanely protective of your children. As a result of that creep.....my children were never EVER left alone or with sitters...even if I trusted my family members, I never allowed the kiddos to spend the night because I didn`t know who THEIR neighbors were or whom they would allow in their homes...boy friends....in laws...etc No, I wasn`t hurt ...but something was taken from me....My kids have never been to a summer camp...they are rarely allowed anywhere where myself or another parent who has earned my trust implicity through the years is supervising....My kids don`t go hang out at the mall...or get left at a theme park or even the local fair for the day. I have anxiety attacks when my sisters let their kids do these things.... I knew that I was this way...I just hadn`t connected it with why. The cliche phrase *innocence stolen* barely conveys what is missing from some one after that experience.....an inability to trust...a way of looking at the world through jaded eyes...of not being able to relax your vigilance ever. Bow I am so sorry that you were not treasured and protected as you should have been.

Bumpy, most people realise that mistress of darkness was a joke .....a title once bestowed upon me by the same fellow that issued my fake doctorate :) I don`t get it. Participate in the discussion, bring up valid points to consider...but to post for no other reason than to issue insults, to denegrate the opinions and ideas, and make snide remarks about people and meds...simply is not the way that we were told to treat one another. I think that folks should give serious thought as to why the staunchest ministry/pfal/vpw adherants seem to find personal attacks, attempts to hurt with cruel statements, and some times just plain cussed meanness as acceptible behavior. Step back and think abbout it for a miniute....pretend that it isn`t me asking....but just what is it about the doctrine that we were taught that makes this ok?? I think maybe there in lies the answere to why our leaders indulged in behavior that had such devistating consequences.

Bumpy what dog do you have in this fight? I don`t understand posting just to fling insults without adding anything of substance to the discussion. Aside from your finger in everybodies faces and your insults ...what of benefit do YOU bring to the discussion at hand? If it bothers you to read of this stuff...than please skip over it, but please consider that there are people that are working their way to an understanding of our experiences. There is great good beeing accomplished on several fronts here.....in spite of attempts to obstruct the truth and healing that it eventually will bring. How can you begrudge people that? Wrds n wrks...That was well said. Even if pfal were 100 % doctrinally sound...it left out that vital component. All of the scriptural knowledge in the world is not enough to replace that relationship nor will it help you fullfill the 2 great commandments.