rascal

Well that is just the thing oldies...those people who did those awfull things may wear the lable christian. I a=don`t believe that they were denuine christians. I have seen the real thing since leaving twi...they are not even remotely tempted to drug and rape, commit adultery... They are changed on the inside... Wierwille supposedly developed these apetites and lusts while proclaiming being christian...it just doesn`t wash...not if you believe the bible.

I don`t think that is true if one is a genuine christian... What you say is possibly true of one that just wears the lable. I think that there is life altering impact and change on the inside when one experiences the new birth...that is why we are able to tell one another by the fruit....it isn`t something that you can fake...or achieve by study and research.... A man of the spirit as described in galatians just doesn`t DO the things vp did period. Now..I will settle for seeing vp as a man of the flesh that wore a christian lable...I think he thought that his accomplishments were what would make him spiritual...I think that in view of the fruit of his life...he was mistaken. What you are describing oldies...is works ...those won`t make you spiritual...change you on the inside..

No kidding Abby...lol thats what I thought :) Another spot I am sorry for derailing your already excellent thread...but gee whiz...to find out that this what God has to teach so many of us...whew. Your posts have really brought a smile to my face this morning...establishing yet again (as if he needs to...lol) his willingness to care for us ...evebn when we are brats.

Another spot that is what is so humbling. That he CARES enough to reach out even when we are throwing a temper tantrum like a two yr old. I was hurt, I was angry, distraught to realize that none of the formulas or principles or action that we were taught that would keep us safe no matter how scrupulously applied ...could prevent disaster. ... and the voice was so calm...so kind The subsequent learning...I gotta assume that it is God...(I know in my heart) because of my deep distrust of anybody wielding scriptures...and everybody else thanks to twi`s instilled out look on people outside of twi... It is truly humbling that he appears to care enough to minister on a level that I can accept. The important issues....I am shown meticulously from three different sources...and when the dot`s are finally connected...I hear/feel this calm chuckle...and get this feeling of an elbow in my rib...yeah...I showed you here n here...but you know...it`s in the scriptures too...like our own little private joke.

Wow...Love God and Love your neighbor WAS what God brought me back to. I was in crisis....I was in the car screaming..I litterally told God to eff himself (accompanied with finger gesture and all) and told him...that at THIS point I wasn`t even sure if he existed...BUT if he did....to just stay the he11 away from me...because EVERYTHING I had ever been taught about him was a lie... Well suddenly ...(it is hard to describe) in the midst of my emotional storm....I feel/hear? this utterly calm thought...kind of in the way of a chuckle...Well now that we finally have THAT understood..how about we start back at square one. Yeah I know...nutso...but the thought/voice was so chrystal clear...so calm in the midst of the turmoil and hurt of my own thoughts...it stopped me cold. I got mad and said something defiantly....like ...I`ll never trust anybody or anything to ever again to tell me about God (this even included scriptures at the time) The calm voice asked kindly...well do you think that can you handle love God and love your neighbor as a place to start?? I was at a cross roads at that point...I had to decide if he even existed...(I really wanted to believe) ...and I got a call from a man that night that has only had contact in my life a handfull of times...each time ...he told me God told him to come see me...one time he traveled with his family of 5 in a vw beetle 2000 mile and found me at a our family at our camp that required travel on 20 miles of winding unmarked logging trails and showed up unanounced....he told me the next day that God had told him he needed to come talk to me...That was when I was 14 or 15 . I hadn`t talked to the man in a decade...and he said..h`llo Cath...this is you uncle Ron...and I interupted him n yelled...NO...you tell God that I don`t WANT to talk to him any more....he just roared with laughter...he knew that I didn`t mean it....he said I`ll be there tomorrow...um...where do you live??? (He had gotten my number from my dad..I don`t think he even knew what state I lived in...lol) ALl it took was me acknowldeging that I knew nothing....and God went right to work... But Love God and love your neighbor was the foundation upon which everything ele was built.

I remember the psychic healing teachings at the adv class......lol oh yes...the people were healed by satans power....but they all died within a year....ooooooh scarey... I about laughed my bu tt off when I saw that documentary about how they do it last year....lmao...not that it is funny that people were scammed...but that old vic really bought it and thought it was significantly spiritual enough to teach it in the oh so advanced class as some big heavy revy. OMG...you`d think that if God was running the show, he mightta whispered in ol vp`s ear that it was a fake...snort What a dufus.

Well...yeah, forgiveness is important...the thing that I don`t get is why we think that it works any different for us then how God operates. To my knowledge...he doesn`t ever do it until the seeker repents and asks....why would he set it up that way?? It must be an important part of the process or he would just do it automatically...right??? I have to wonder if there must be something vitally important in requiring repentance and asking first..... Why would the operation of forgiveness work any differently for us? WOuld he tell us to repent and ask when desiring forgiveness from him...then turn around and tell us to not bother requiring the repentance and asking before we grant our forgiveness?? One verse I read...we were to forgive our brother when he repents...why would that last part be in there if it weren`t important?

Oh MAN...does THIS put the pieces in place... Thank you another spot...wow. It explains so many difficulties.

Dot I was in je-nnie keswi-ks branch she later married and divorced a branch leader in texarkan..Allan somebody 6 corps. Terry mats0- wasa our family co...ric- hu-chinson...my wow bros that later went in the corps.

Bumpy, as I told wth, you are a prime example of what embracing contaminated doctrine of a spiritually bankrupt organization. You aren`t pleasing God, you aren`t ministering to people....you are simply trying to insult and demean. Why? Get honest and ask yourself WHY you would want to treat people this way. What/whose purpose do you serve in interfering with the growth and healing that is happening here? Yeah Dooj... IF he were part of the same body...it `d be like...ummm eewwww Why would one fight so hard and dirty to hide these dirty little secrets?? Most people i know...want to know the truth.

Faithfull to THOSE truths??? Ummm Jesus said that we would know them by there fruits....ok vow failed THAT test Galatians clearly state what the fruit of a man of the flesh is and what the man of the spirit are...oh gee he falls into the man of the flesh catagory AGAIN...no matter WHAT he taught. The truths that he taught...were just spring boards into teachings that enslaved and created great soorrow and bondage...people raped babies killed believers died....dunno sounds to me like a false prophet because his *truths* brought pain and death. Jesus said there were two great commandments....love God and love your neighbor....he failed one miserably...I am suspect that he really knew how to do the first one either...or he just couldn`t have done what he did.

He may have taught that....but apparently that wasn`t enough to help him be a genuine christian. Jesus said that there will be those that expect entry to heaven one day....they taught in his name, etc....he will tell them *depart for I knew you not* I can`t say of vp `ll fall into that catagory....I only know that I wouldn`t want to be in vp`s shoes..knowing what HE did to the innocents whom he promised to lead to God. VPW`s life of lying stealing, adultery, drugging and raping of women, savaging reputations, destroying families....the list goes on.....is NOT the life of a genuine christian....the fact that he could do these things without conscience tells ME that there was no genuine life impacting change of the new birth. I think that the scriptures condemn him.

Me? I have never claimed *such spiritual understanding*?? I only point out what the scriptures say about the behaviors of vpw. I am sorry that it flies in the face of what you want to believe. I can olny assume that God placed galatians in there so that we could understand...I can only surmise that Jesus chose to instruct us to look at the fruit to identify one another because it must have been difficult to tell the genuine christian from the counterfit....shrug It makes perfect sense to me...otherwise..I have to believe that a loving God would have lead earnest young people in to be slaughtered. You have never answered me oldies....Do you make the same argument for Jim Jones??? He ran churches and taught scriptures for as long as vpw did.

The stories aren`t told for you to believe wth. You and your bunch have slaughtered enough innocent souls in your time. Now you try to once again visciously rend and tear people apart....it won`t work...we are older, smarter, stronger now. The people who need to know what happened and why will...the knowledge brings strength...each of us...whether it was drugging and rape, forced abortions, broken families, loved ones dying that we suffered...we will finally know and understand finally that it wasn`t us...our lack of spirituality, God leading us there and forsaking us....some how that we blew it... This knowledge of the spiritual putridness of these men will set us free from a life time of struggling to live up to a rediculous dogma.... I don`t know why you want these peoples crimes hidden...I don`t know if you are afraid to face the fact that you were wrong...I don`t know why you think that your venom or hatefullness is even remotely the behavior of a genuine christian. Your nastiness wth ..your desire to rend and hurt .... is a prime example of the spiritual banruptcy of the doctrine that you embraced.

False prophets don`t teach those things??? Genuine christians just don`t rape the flock. I don`t think that people who received their entire spiritual education so to speak solely at the hands of these men of the flesh are familiar enough with the walk of a genuine spirit filled christian to be able to tell the difference between genuine and one who is counterfit.

I believe that to be an assumption on your part oldies...one that evidence to date doesn`t support...shrug

Snort...and just how much time do YOU spend here Bumpy in order to draw these conclusions on people that you have never met??? LOL You don`t know us, and you don`t understand us, therefor it seems you must critisize and try to Bully. Nice.

I agree that lcm was insane long before geer...so much for wierwilles in depth spiritual perception n awareness...not to mention just good old fashioned common sense. Most people could see without God`s help the cut of craigs cloth.

Dan, doctrine is great. Enjoy :)

Yeah but aren`t we all at some point bnis?? At some point we change because a somebody cares enough to gently point us in the direction towards understanding??? That was an awfully nice thing to say Dan :) Because I can see that you are a caring person (not just cause you were nice to me lol) Your attempts to be gentle alow me to consider your pov without being offended. How about though.... we comment on the topic at hand dan....whether or not vpw was a false prophet or a minister gone bad? See it is vitally important for some of us to understand in order to heal...in order to regain that which was stolen from us. There is a whole issue about being able to trust God at stake wrapped up for us in understanding this. If you want to start a thread on how wrong it is for us to annalyze the fruit in vp`s life, that would be apropriate and I would gladly debate you on that subject rather than to further derail a fruitfull discussion on THIS one :) I was serious when I said that we all hold a piece of the puzzle and can help one another understand.

Dan, that is only fair.....might I respectfully ask of you the same thing? That there is a possibly God is at work on a number of different levels here for people :) I think that is one of the traps we (all of us) tend to fall into post twi....expecting to all be on the same page ...that if someone isn`t seeing things the way we do....they are dead wrong. Dan your imput is of value, your persective apreciated.

There an awfull lot of really good people here that you accuse of being liars. It is pretty comical that you yourself `cid are so damnably guilty of what you so pompously and self rightiously point your finger at others for..decry in others....what a joke.

Great point bnis..I have often wondered if those proclaiming vpw`s praises the loudest had been bent over a chair...or one of their sons whom reported to the mog expecting to learn great spiritual insight.....had been degraded and thrown away.... if their opinion of him might be different.

Just because all one cares about is the word doesn`t mean that everything else isn`t important.

Sorry Lifted, I thought that you were smacking me with that answere over and over. I felt pretty trapped. It would have been a betrayal of trust to tell anybody another posters name....even in private message. I won`t do that.