rascal

Understood Suda....I guess that my question would be, what in vpw`s life would indicate that he WASN`T a false prophet...a wolf in sheeps clothing? A wolf is not part of the flock...a wolf infiltrates the flock diguised in order to get close enough to rend and devour thise who would otherwise flee to the shepherd for safety. I don`t see Jesus cutting the pharacees who hurt God`s people any slack....I don`t see him telling people to apreciate the good and escew the evil... I see him hold these people in the utmost contempt. I don`t see vpw as of the same flock....he gathered us about him...immitating the call of the shepherd...he drew us away from the shepherds protection....he offered us green pasture (the word) and while we were distracted... grazing on the riches ...he picked us off one by one for his personal consumption....we were so dadgummed busy focused on what we were eating....blythly trusting that we were under the protection of the shepherd....we relaxed our guard...did not see the need for vigilance..that when it became OUR turn to feel gnashing teeth...not only of the wolf...but those of his whelps that he snuck in while we were unaware...we start bleeting for the shepherds protection...we are bleeding with the flesh torn from us...pitiously...not understanding why we are being consumed...bewildered and wounded...attempting to understand how the wolves came into our midst. It was brutal and cruel... I cannot accept that God was at work here. I cannot accept that the just shepherd would call us into danger.... \What I CAN understand that I might have been lured away from his protection ...decieved into following the shepherd away from the safety and protection that was ours.....and then being ravaged because I didn`t have sense enogh to detect the imposter ....enough to run to the real shepherd. I cannot trust a God that would lead some of us to blessings and sonme of us into rape and death ...I just cannot :(

This kind of thread bothers me because I have so many people that have been such a great blessing to me, and I am so afraid that I might inadvertantly miss someone....If I have, I am truly sorry...Please know that your timely post or warm thoughts ...your information freely given.....was appreciated.

You guys have said some incredibly kind things. I haven`t posted here yet because I wanted to gather my thoughts carefully, lest I forget somebody. Each person here has brought a unique perspective and piece of the puzzle to help me see the bigger picture. SO many have ministered and taught me in so many different ways. I guess I need to start with the Allens who had the courage to stand up to twi and start waydale...that was the beginning of my journey towards healing...that provided the avenue for me to be able to start thinking outside of the mental prison that I was tightly encased in. They began the lawsuits that woke up so many still IN twi. I think that it was Groucho and Hills Brother back in waydale that I noticed having the nerve to speak the first *negatives* and I read em without my head spinning and spewing green ...aka getting posessed...Radar and hope provided so much inside information....cat cup as well....to name a few. I miss orange cat. I wonder what happened to poor free bird and Dobby...then there was the gal who posted frm behind her shades ..I can`t remember her name, but she left with her whole family finally. I learned through peoples examples that it was alright to begin to question... There was the chat room that meant so much to me during that long difficult pregnancy...people who would sit up and talk to me all night when I couldn`t sleep...shell...dee...grizz..there was vinehanger,,that always had towls and boiling water ready... Pawtucket picked up the ball and provided a safe haven for us to continue our journey...the path to wholeness. Paw if you are reading this...there are a lot of us who didn`t have the money for professional help to sort all of this out...who didn`t have the confidence in doctors to confide the deep fear and anxiety that consumed us after leaving twi...we still thought that it was devil spirits trying to attack and posess us....still believed if we operated the principles just right...was the only way to avoid death and destruction...there was the constant stress of being afraid that we would blow it in just a single are one time and lose everything.... Your perspective in dealing with personal issues also was much appreciated. There were the morning chatters ...we all enjoyed our cup of coffee together sorting out the problems of the world...shell...dee...catcup..ana used to like us back then ....cat dad used to drop in.....bow that was when you joined us I think....Hope came in one day and scolded us for not posting in the forums..(its all HER fault guys) .....up to that point I had been just reading and learning as a spectator at gs...I finally registered where I could post. Who knew that I would explode all over the forums like I did....I was terrified ...I was so afraid of people knowing what a total retard I was and mostly tried to placate people.... In having a safe haven to discuss these things...in realizing that others were suffering the same doubts...wondering if satan could kill us because we weren`t tithing any more...etc. What I have seen here is the body of Christ at work ....I have seen people with a particular affinity and understanding in one area ... share of their understanding with others ...those others having their own understanding from the direction that they had been since leaving...sharing that with the people whom that information would benefit. First...on the top of my list of individual posters would have to be excathedra.... THAT woman stood up...and finally told what happened. She had to tell her story when everyone STILL believed vp was as pure as the wind driven snow and that martindale had been just a tad narrow minded....She had to endure the outrage of people offended by an attack on their *Father in the word* It was her account that finally cracked the walls in my prison...that let the light begin to shine in... Then you had Dot who eventually confirmed her story and provided accounts of her own .... powerfull accounts that helped me come to grips with why leadership would declare you posessed.... Catcup and her sister and Dad provided some pretty good perspective from being right up close to the beast.... There were Lindy Hopper and Georgio jessio..mini corpes conscript...who gave us the perspective from the kids pov....there was Cool waters and Temple lady who gave us the accounts of child abuse in ak. There are those who those gentlemen who came to my defense when being attacked for posting of my own horrors...Zixar, Dave miller, Ron G, alfakat, oakspear, ham, raf, grizz.. are just a few that I remember who comfirmed to me that chivalry was not dead.... There were the folks like dot, shell n bow, cool waters whom sorted me when I was going through my personal melt downs.... There were you ladies that covered my back, time and again offering coorborating testimony when I was being called a liar...there were those of you who defended my veracity and integrity...when others would portray me as a raving lunatic....thanks Belle, and Dot, bow, All of you who came to my rescue and dug me out when I had stepped into it up to my neck...or kindly helped to extract my foot which I had firmly wedged into my mouth all the way up to my hip...lol I loved the courage of our dear bell aka insurgent and abi who posted of life behind the enemy lines...their accounts helped to solidify in my mind that we ahd made the right decision to leave. Sunesis, your profound thoughts, your scriptural back up to confirm that which I was blindly groping for....have in so many ways helped me to connect the dots....helped me to a healthy understanding. Word wolf, Geeze....thank you for so many times wading into a fray and sorting things out...helping me to communicate what I MEANT to say in a much better way. You have waded in tossing the the bullies that have dog piled on left and right untill you reached the bottom of the pile and found me huddled in a ball...given me hand up to my feet, dusting me off...offering a steadying arm untill I was ready again ... I guess as I always saw you as keeping it a fair fight without being partial. Eyes, you shared openly of yourself, you shared perspective, no matter how uncomfortable that helped a lot of us. TBone, and sky rider, you have posted some thoughts that really helped me *scratch that itch* so to speak where I didn`t understand ...you put into words that I can grasp...thanks for the added understanding. Waysider, your grandpa stories always put things in a perspective that I can understand.... Another spot, your posts have added a lot of perspective to the topic at hand....your thread on taking the lords name in vain...has been a classic...I think bringing out some of the most profound thoughts I have read from so many posters... Rainbows girl...thanks for the timely encouragement . Shifra, I have enjoyed your perspective and look forward to reading more. Java Jane, you always add interesting insight to any topic. SO many many people through the years have had such a profound impact in my life and understanding...I am so afraid that I might have missed some one who might have offered a bit of timely encouragement, shown kindness when I was absolutely devistated at the loss of a pet or a job.... SO many times I would read and re read those compassionate posts and mentally wrap them around myself like a warm blanket to keep out the cold ...I am thinking of kit, dot and linda in the prayer forums. When I was kicking myself the hardest....someone was always there to come to my aid. I am so afraid that I have missed someone who offered me a kindness when I was the lowest....there are so many folks that have been such a blessing....lol everyone should be so lucky as to have been blessed by so many they cannot recollect them all... What I see on this thread is what I have always believed of Greasepot....that each person here is a blessing to somebody, the unique perspective and insight can provide the healing for another.... Dot...eyes.... rainbows girl, I hope that I can see things through your eyes some day.

OK, so after contact with this fellows ministry people ended up chucking God. People whom were searching for God were decieved, families destryed, people died. It still sounds like we are giving vpw way to much credit. Are these NOT the actions of a false prophet? Teach enough scripture to fool people and draw them away from God? Are we supposed to give a false prophet credit for the good when the good was simply used to lure us into the bad?? Can false prophet be a little good and some bad? I thought we were told to have nothing to do with guys like this. Probably not because they don` teach scripture...but because of the harm that they have the potential to cause...They don`t have the love of God inside of them as a moral compass.

Can`t GET any???? LMAO get real....he took what he could get and even that which he couldn`t, and shouldn`t have. As I understand it...even one at a time wasn`t enough to suit him....married or single willing or unwilling..... the sick freak.

SUPER Chas!!! I`ll bet you guys are thrilled :) He is gorgeous. I am suprisd and delighted that they are being shown with tails...all the ones I ever saw were docked. What a handsome boy.

Well...the long and the short of it...I thought that God required this of me :( I can take it on a point by point blow if necessary....but suffice it to say, that in every single situation of abuse that I endured, resignation and acceptance to the treatment was ensured by bible verses. I took it because I believed (as I had been taught) that to disobey a leader, meant to disobey God. To not accept reproof ...no matter how unjust....was to be stiff necked....

Exactly polar Bear...I think that is what chaps my bu tt ...is that this whole idea eliminates the need for repentance and the required seeking of forgivness and making restitution and amends where ever possible... Ever so much easier to blow it all off and accuse those whom have been wronged of dwelling in the past. It helps the one who did the wronging to ignore responsibility. If we don`t look and consider the implications of the past...how the heck are we going to figure out where it all went wrong, why, and most importantly how to prevent it from ocuring again?

Well I used the words *dwelling on the past* because many times, that teaching is used as an excuse to pretend that the past doesn`t matter... We were trained to ignore the past ... using this catch phrase to condition ourselves to push these things from our minds....people are uncomfortable when we examine the activities of the minitry and it`s leaders.... I think that in light of what we now know, that it is in the consideration of our past difficulties, we can grow and learn. LOL...my personal mantra for some time now has been to endeavor to avoid making the mistakes today that I will be kicking myself for in 5 years...:) Jonny, did you read tbones post that I pasted? I wonder...is not the bible and Jesus, and all he taught in the past? Are these past events not relevent to our present lives? will the accounts of people rising and falling in God`s grace not aid us in our future choices and decisions??? Are they not relevent to dwell on? I think that we can learn from our past, how to be sharper in the future.

You can read about my 1 st wow year in Karl`s book. :) We were a bunch of good hearted kids (all under 21) that thought we were on the front lines of the spiritual battle. We didn`t know that our efforts were going to bring someone into a place that brought them pain. My 2nd year, 85/86 was right after vpws death and ended just as pop was read. Those of us that made it through that freakishly difficult year arrived feeling bruised, battle weary ...no feelings of victory, just unutterably thankfull that the nightmare was finally over and that we had survived.

TBone made an observation on another thread that I thought was profound. I thought that it deserved a thread of it`s own., in order to examine it further. With his permission I pasted this post. In my opinion, one of the most beneficial functions of the mind - reflection - was discouraged in PFAL and of course in TWI. There’s something about the mindset of PFAL that gets people to sever their connection with reality – TWI folks don’t like to dwell on the past…thoughts that tend toward introspection are suppressed. What is the practical consequence of such a mindset? It doesn’t see any relation between past thoughts/actions and current conditions. Adrift toward some future – awash in confusing details of past and present…It is shallow thinking – incapable of mining personal history for self-improvement, for lessons learned, for understanding how we got where we are now, the direction we’re likely to head, and what adjustments we need to make in our course heading. It breeds impatience – demanding that those who reflect should move on. The attitude is also tinged with arrogance – assuming people who review experiences have such a lowly status and recommend they move on to another level. In my opinion this bears serious consideration. We were conditioned to think that looking back was a very bad thing...we are uncomfortable if other do it...yet when tbone lays it out there like that...it seems to be foolish NOT to look back and learn from our mistakes.

T Bone...THAT is an amazing thought. I think that needs to be a thread all by itself. Will you start ??If not may I??

white gravy...so versatile ....it can be used as a base for sausage gravy and biscutes....add some velveta and a smidge of garlic and poof it becomes the cheese sauce for mac and cheese...or potatoes ham carrots and you have broccoli cheese soup....a little wine and sour cream and tuna fish and you have tuna on toast....it goes well over country fried steak and taters.... Never let it be said that rascal can`t stay on topic :)

How could a minister..representatives for God to his people DO these things...so entirely destroy our self worth that we could not even look to God for help?? Shifra, my friend bow tells a horrible story about how she was thrown out of rome city with her teenaged son and both maliciously slandered. It was heartbreaking the lies they told.

Oh geeze Shifra. I can completely relate to you. I have told the story about what happened when I was 18 ...the interim copres bc wife declared me posessed....The shame, the feeling of being contaminated, the bewilderment of not knowing how I could have become posessed when I had endeavored to do my very best to serve him and be a blessing. I couldn`t stay in the house that I rented with these people...I left it to them along with my furniture and such...I couldn`t go home in another state..to the believers whom had so lovingly nurtured and taught me because I now believed that I was spiritual scum and I might inadvertently contaminate one of my loved ones. I couldn`t turn to God because I had become posessed. How can you continue living when there is no one you can turn to??? I sat at the red river bridge for a long time trying to decide if I ought rid the world of spiritually filthy self. I was so afraid that I would get somebody else contaminated since I didn`t know how it had happened to me. I almost did. I decided instead, that I would go home to my natural man family...since they were all posessed to and await the physical death that I assumed would follow my spiritual death that I had been promised would happen if I returned to the town where there were no believers. I thought that was the safest thing because no believers would be in danger. The depths of despair...the complete loathing of self...the utter separation from God and all whom I loved...it was the deepest and most blackest of despair...a bleakness that defies description. All this (I found out years later) because the bc `s wife was feeling ....y because SHE didn`t get the assignement that SHE had told God that SHE wanted....she was taking it out on the local believers. SHe destroyed a heart and life :( in a single selfish mean moment

Not mad...just bewildered at the treatment...shrug

Bump, you appear to be sarcastic and mean, you treat all of us and this web sight like we are some big joke all arranged for your personal entertainment over morning tea...... Your comments all seem designed to hurt and inflame. I don`t understand why you would do this to people. I don`t understand the chip on your shoulder...but it appears to go beyond doctrinal pov... shrug..your problem I guess....but your unpleasant observations certainly detract from your credibility.

Have any of you read another spot`s thread about spiritual abuse/taking the lords name in vain?? It is an eye opener, and I think has a lot of bearing on the difficulties encountered in understanding one another on this thread.

dooj said it nicely on another thread...something along the lines of the ministry being the shifting sands that the many of us built our houses of honest intentions on. I butchered it pretty well there.... but I think this goes right along with understanding why there were so many many good hearted people that gave their hearts and lives in service...that are now grasping and struggling to try to figure out why our best efforts and good intentions could come crashing down around our ears. Another Spot... I think that it is vital to understand what you have postes here...I think that untill we understand what happened, we are doomed to struggle trying to make a faulty system of belief work. It is a tough tough thing to face...your back ground of horrendous abuse seems to equip you to recognize these things. You are a strong person...I am sickened to read of your abuse....... but rather than destroy you...as it would have many of us...you seem to have become strong ... . Thanks for shedding light in a way that I can understand these issues.

LMAO :) You too tbone..that was pretty good.

Brilliant observation as well skyrider...Thanks for reposting this eyes, as I missed it before. Wow...though posted addressed to Bumpy, I think this succinct synopsis of twi activities and treatment of people is well said. Thanks Dooj

PERFECT Analogy Dooj! Brilliant!! :)

Preeecisely Groucho....at least the scritpures support that pov.

George you make a good point about not attacking christians...but everybody else is fair game....to hell with em. There is scripture that exhortes us to be kind to *all*...but a lot of pseudo christians like to ignore that one as well... My point was that IF you claim to be a Christian...why wouldn`t you walk the walk?? Attacking another christian is not acceptible...it is hypocracy.

Well HERE are things from MY perspective.... I disagreed with a post...a SINGLE post cid did about the word the word and nothing but the word was all that was important any more...I gave my reason for disagreement......I told why...that if it was a big deal..or even remotely important...then one supposed that those who lived by that creed wouldn`t have been capable of indulging/endorsing/perpetrating such heinous acts against our innocent brothers and sisters....assuming that maybe the poster was ignorant of vp`s dirty little secrets. THIS was where it got nasty.... I was attacked as a liar By cid ....for saying these men did this. I was THEN attacked as someone unable to allow something nice to be said about twi.....not so....(this was one point of one post I addressed...I didn`t disagree with any others) A few references were thrown in concerning my mental health and stability... You then had people come forward and say that I wasn`t lying and provided links to marshas story You then had people calling marsha an annonymous account of a probable liar... You had people come forth and say...no I knew her and her account rings true... You had people call into question THESE peoples veracity.. MORE people came forth with stories of heartbreaking personal abuse at the hands of these men...to coorborate the original account.... and when it becomes obvious that the stories are irrefutable.... Then you have the people who were first called liars...THEN attacked for derailing the thread when defending themselves and points....THEN attacked as intolerant whiners and complainers....you have posters unable to accept vp`s damnable guilt....accusing the rape victims of poor judgement, of lack of something for not walking away...of just plain being stupid basically....(this callousness still boggles my mind) SOMEWHERE sandwitched in between all of that there were people getting necessary information to begin healing from years of silent shame...People after decades were finally understanding for the first time *why me* and that it wasn`t just me....tears ...healing...pieces of the puzzle falling into place.... You have bullies that post for no other reason than to obstruct the information being presented and try to bring into question the veracity/sanity/spirituality of the people who presented the information.... You CAN disagree without trying to slaughter someone...It never was a pi$$ing contest the one who shouts the loudest or intimidates people into silence...strikes the most blows ...etc is the winner... I personally think that the bullying here was extreme and the harassment ugly. It was inexcusable coming from supposed christian brothers and sisters. It never ceases to suprise me ... the deliberately cruel hurtfull things that are said because someone doesn`t like your pov. I just don`t get it. Yeah it hurts feelings to be called delusional, pychotic, attention seeking, liar, perpetually whining victim, pig making farting noises....etc...to have ones motives, character and veracity called into question from folks that claim to be my brothers and sisters...part of the same body...the hurt becomes espescially keen...I don`t know...maybe it ties in with how one is able to excuse the evidence of vpw and leaders lives. So now finally....this thread comes down to people coming along and with the nobelest of intentions....some how attempting to present the inexcusable behavior...some how understandable...and acceptible... Wake up friends....IF we want to claim to be christian...IF we want to be something more than just one who brandishes the lable.... Love God and love your neighbor...if we aren`t doing Those two things...no matter what we percieve that provocation....doctrine....(the word the word and nothing BUT the word) ..then something is wrong with our priorities, our understanding, our motives, etc. I have to say...that in spite of it all....people managed to get information presented that brought healing and closure to other people. ....for that I personally am humbly gratefull.