rascal

In talking about failed prophesies....I got to thinking about the time period surrounding vpws death. They kept vpw`s illness a dark dirty little secret...why? Why wouldn`t they minister to him? WHy wouldn`t they allow someone else??? Obviously they were facing some harsh realities at this point..... His teaching on cancer being a devil spirit was in question at this point....else how could the man of God for our day and time become posessed?? The great one`s positive confessions and walking by the spirit had not protected him from infection.....this foundational teaching has failed him. The man of God for our day and time is unable to *believe* for healing....that kind of calls into question the validity of this teaching.... He succumbs to death and they finally have to make a public statement. What do they do?? DO they humble themselves and admit that the doctrine which the ministry is built on is flawed??? No...... they find a way to blame everybody else. VP died...sigh of a broken heart. ....yes it is true...nobody would listen to him any more so he turned his face to the wall and died.... If one person...just ONE had asked the right question...he would have changed his mind and lived.... You have tens of thousands of prayer warriors that could have been rallied into 24 hour prayer vigils within an hours time...Why didn`t they ask folks to pray?? Did they not believe in the power of these peoples prayers?? Why would they deny the people whom were supposed to be the spiritually sharpest in the world a chance to pray for their ailing minister? How could they think, based on the doctrine that we were taught that this would not have affected the outcome of his illness??? I have to think that based on their refusal to inform the believers of the life and death battle going on.......that they just didn`t think enough of the power in the heartfelt earnest prayers of tens maybe hundreds of thousands of believers on behalf of their beloved teacher to even lift the reciever of a phone to make the request....

Well, I think that your belief is colored by what they told you in order to cover their bu tts when their prophesies failed to come into fruition... Didn`t vp himself teach that the only way to know if a prophet was real was if the predictions came to pass? Better come up with some logical way of covering for their failure.... Kindda like not wanting to admit that the great one was either wrong in his cancer and believing teachings....or he/they failed at believing... Kind of a rock and a hard place no??? SO what do they tell the believers?? DO they ask for prayer??? You would have thought if thy believed in prayer, that they would have allowed tens of thousands of believers to pray fervently.... Nope they keep his illness a dark dirty little secret and then tell everybody that he died of a broken heart....that he weuld have changed his mind and lived had someone just asked him the right question.....ohhh boo hoo...it was all everyone elses fault...certainly not the man of God for our day and time.....

You do not know what you are talking about oldies....How could you?? You family were all innies. I have told you what it was like if your family wasn`t....I can because I know what I was told concerning my non twi family...shrug...you wouldn`t have any experience to base your understanding on. I keep trying to tell you that the rules that were applied to you and your innie family ...one with people that were way up on the food chain were entirely different than that for a run of the mill believer. There was a difference in our treatment and experiences....Why must you discredit mine because they were not yours as part of the elite and privileged of twi? What could you possibly klnow about whether or not we were permitted to associate with our families??

WooHOOO Bliss Knocks one right outta the Ball Park!!!! Good one.... Not that I don`t wish with every fiber of my being that you were wrong....I would love to pretend that I didn`t do anything bad...that it was just a parasite that needed to be removed in order for me to honor my vow to God.... The implications are otherwise overwhelming.

Whole lot easier??? It was permitted. Not innie families, were body and soul empties....spiritual life suckers....conduits for satan... Making it easier??? That was what made it possible period. You didn`t have contact with non ministry family unless you wanted to chance contamination. Like I said...no outside reading ..no outside family and friends, no news papers, no tv, worldly education was harshly critisized and discouraged..... Yeah I`d say that we became pretty wierd in our isolation from all outside input.

Seriously??? OMG America owes it`s freedom of the last 30 years to the faithfull stand of you wow ambassodors??? That were it not for the spiritual blessings causing physical blessings we would all be speaking russian??? THAT is how you excuse the failed prophesy???? There was another communist take over supposed to happen in 79 ...I suppose it was us wows then that negated THAT prophesy???? wow....thank God for our faithfull stand preventing that catastrophy.... Was it the wows that prevented the y2k disater that was to dismantle our entire country??? Why I think America not to mention the world owes us a debt of gratitude, not to mention monetary compensation for our faithfull stands.... Actually....I think that all sounds pretty delusional.....

Seeing earthly family was highly discouraged...Satan would use them to attack you....Don`t trust them, they would talk you out of the word.... Don`t go back to them after your wow year because you would die spiritually....shrug... Didn`t seem like there was any decision to make other than did you want to live or die. Movies?? Yeah I guess I do remember being permited to go to a movie that we were to spiritually critique. Rocky Horror picture show....lol I suppose seeing earthly family was permitted if they were innies.

benedict vic? vic benedict? Spiritual traitor??? Great analogy He betrayed us all.

...and a worthy one copenhagen. I guess that I would worry that people would think that a change in leadership would indicate a change in direction of the ministry. I am afraid that it is so messed up that Jesus Christ himself could not fix it live and in person.... You didn`t see him trying to take over the sanhedren (sp?) or fix the saducees and pharacees....to work through the roman government....those avenues were so messed up that he had to start all over with 12 guys.... Guys who were not raised to be ministers..... There is nothing to save or rescue ...just good hearted people that need to be freed.

Well it certainly explains why it was so difficult to leave when the abuse began.

There was no line of demarcation. It was never alive untill first breath. You could and were required to destroy the child right up untill it was born. I knew a corpes girl that aborted in her 7th month.

It was mighty ugly in 1979 as well. You were golden, God`s elite special forces as long as you were producing...taking classes, going wow, preparing for corpes...etc Do anything less and you were a spiritual cop out, a bump on the log spirituallyand just an all around dissapointment to God. In later years...it was more of a black mail thing....tithe.... witness ....fellowship...run classes....sponsorship...instant obedience ...the list was endless...or God wouldn`t spit in your direction... You were very fortunate to have only been exposed for a very short time no matter when you were involved.

Nicely done Suda.

Rottie...the single most important thing is tell me please please please that you are wearing a good helmet. Your head is vulnerable...that old horse is very unlikely to hurt you....most older horses take very good care of their riders...they seem to sense that the person on their back needs looking after. If you are really afraid...there are rib protectors....kind of like a flack jacket, but I don`t think that you will need it. I think that it is very wonderfulll that you are learning a new thing....I trust the old guy to take care of you...I think riding in an arena will provide safety.... Relax and have fun....this is one of lifes great pleasures.

Well said Groucho, I might add that it is in leaving and fellowshiping with genuine christians that one discovers how lacking twi is... There is no substituting for the genuine.

That isn`t a trap to fall into. That is a conscious decision made to indulge in evil behavior. It was also a conscious decision to destroy the non compliant when dissapointed, So many decisons made to ignore scriptures. He ignored the biggest injunction of all....Jesus said it was all important...Love God and Love your neighbor....I suppose that is why the fruit of his life was of the flesh. No trap...just deliberate decisions to ignore our God given responsibilities.

You cannot handle the information Larry, so you have to label it conjecture. You are unable to accept the truth, so you try to label those who present it as somehow substandard or unreliable. It doesn`t mean that the events didn`t happen, it doesn`t mean that these men were not evil...it simply means that you cannot handle the truth...shrug You aren`t going to convince many that the stenche filled darkness of life imprisoned in twi is anything desirable once someone tastes the fresh air of freedom out from under the confines of evil men, nor will many be willing to replace the shackles of false dogma ..once freed and experiencing the life. Your house is built on sand buddy.

I think Mrs. W was trapped. I think that she was his first victim. I think that she was bound by the tennents of her generation and culture to make the best of a bad situation. I think that she was bullied and brow beaten. She wasn`t the one drugging and raping young girls...She had a tough miserable life...but it seemed to me that she tried very hard to be a blessing. Damned right I will blame the people who perpetrated these crimes....I certainly do not believe that God would lead us to them to be used and thrown away like so much trash. People always have two choices....twi leaders chose to embrace evil to sate the lusts of their bellies. Threesomes wrong ???..oh hayal yeah....but when the alternative is m&a ...losing your spouse, your family members all of your friends....when the scriptures can be twisted to make it appear alright....that all things are lawfull...that disobediance to the mog tantamount to disobediance to God...your choices appear limited. Study the bible?? yeah..we did a lot of that...but with the flawed foundation and faulty tools that they provided. Don`t know about paul...I am talking about a man who by every known method described in the scriptures...was clearly a man of the flesh, with no inheritance in the kingdom of God. Larry it seems like you being such a fan of the scriptures, you would take a look at what they say about the guys that do what vpw did. Sometimes I think that people don`t want to face the truth about twi and vpw because in facing the truth ...they are unable to face what implications that will hold for themselves. :( Far nicer to feel like we were God`s elite on a noble mission....than the unwitting tools of unscrupulous men,

I can`t see God leading people into bondage...maybe the young women aren`t being drugged and rapes any more..with the passing of vp...and Geer leaving.....Maybe members are not being bullied into threesomes by threats of m&a and job loss held over their heads with craig since the law suits outted him....HOWEVER.....twi is still being run by the same people whom knowingly (according to court documents) allowed this to happen and supported the perpetrators regardless.....the ministry still clings to the doctrine that made this behavior excusable .... No I have to say that I don`t believe for a second that God would lead anybody into twi... I HAVE however seen ample evidence of people being led out by the tens of thousands in the last decade....shrug

Larry, are you still involved with twi?

Maybe in your area they didn`t but the first thing that my leaders did when I became involved in 79 was to discourage reading anything outside of the bible and collaterals...occasionally there would be a book recomended like God`s smuggler or satan seller....or something that a ministry person wrote. I was badgered relentlessly to give up my foot locker of favorite books...I could become possessed...they were conduits for satans influence....yadda yadda...didn`t I want to be more spiritual....we become what we feed our minds...no books...no tv no news papers...too negative...movies were of no profit......fill my mind with God`s word... Add all of that with eschewing of family and friends...we were sure isolated...the only input being ministry promoting doctrine ...no wonder twi became our entire existance :(

I ride horses. My daughter and I have rescued them for years...she has become adept at training and is beginning to specialize in the ones that have problems that nobody else wants. We started with walkers but are gradually working our way into arabians. I would enjoy talking about horses with you. Other folks can talk about the stuff that interests them....we can do both

I don`t have a problem with condemning him for the people he hurt....shoot fire, I have no respect for him in regards for the people that were helped ....as invariably they simply drawn into his snare to be later used... It`s kind of like bottle raising a calf, and spending the time and money to raise it ...feeding it calling the vet when it gets sick...sure...all of these things you do are to help it..... with the end view of butchering it when the time comes. We weren`t much better`n live stock...some were mules to be worked, some of us cows to be milked, some of us butchered for consumption....any and all to be disposed of when our usefullness exhausted... Oh yeah...I`m gonna thank him for that??

I assume that these were the teachings from the weekly services from Gartmore that many subscribed to as twi fell. I assume that they were mostly Geer`s teachings.

Oh, you were on ignore...I do read when others paste or reply. No, not offended with your question to john...just the way you tend to bully everyone...shrug I understand that you must place a tag or lable on me...it makes it easier to justify the rudeness and unkindness. It however isn`t a very shining endorsement for yourself or the God that you claim to represent...