rascal

ABSOLUTELY...I agree, the bullying came from the very top, from the very beginning. What I meant was that there were an awfull lot of really good people who did their very best to talk the talk and walk the walk. These were the people most saw, whom most interacted with.... Those were the people who ran the fellowships, who loved the people, who took the bu tt chewings from above...but continued to love, pray for, minister to everyone in their path....those were the people who`s heart was to serve God and take care of his people.... When they started getting fired for not towing the line, when people were told that their fellowships were no longer considered legitimate...when they were cast out and declared mark and avoid....when they were declared suspiscious spiritually and people warned to stay away....the people who were used to replace them...many times were viscious bullies. The meaner you were, the more face meltings that you could brag about...the more spiritual you were viewed. Without the strong people to prevent the bullying....the evil from the top was allowed to run unchecked. I take copenhagen at their word....that they are stuck in twi. I feel terrible for this...knowing how bleak that existance can be.

Thanks Penworks....funny isn`t it?? When you realise that your brothers and sisters in Christ...those whom we considered closer to us than our blood family...the very folks we would fall on a sword for....only felt that way about us as long as we were standing in the house hold..... Copenhagen, I understand being stuck and not able to leave...sigh. My heart just went out to you when I read of how uninspiring twi activities are for you these days. :( I don`t think things can ever be any different.... the people who made twi what it was during those exciting inspiring times have found different avenues to apply their inspiration and talent. The musicians, the talented teachers, the kind pastors...all have gone. What I noticed during the late eighties as people were being forced out, fired, bullied into compliance and silence....that the only people in twi in GOOD stabnding...those who were being promoted and assigned to fill in the positians of people being bullied out....were those who were cruel and harsh. I remember arguing with my husband when he talked of no longer accepting assignments....I begged him to do what was necessary to stay in good standing...I remember so clearly how desperate I felt, I could see so clearly where twi was headed. I told mark tearfully that couldn`t he see??? If all of the kind, caring people were to continue to allow themselves to be driven away....the only ones left in charge would be the bullies...the cruel folks....there would be nobody left standing in the gap to protect the innocent. He was smart though...he knew that there was no salvaging the situation...though we stayed for several years more in non leadership positions to try. I don`t figure a lot of people really knew what was the turning point...why twi fellowship suddenly became so visciously harsh...the tasks so demanding. I believe it was because the people that kept the bullies in check for so many years..., the ones who refused to be bullied were finally driven away....there were very few people left to stand in the path...to deflect the cruelty ....to stand in the path of the evil of the bullies in charge at the top. I don`t think a lot of people understand why twi is so different today...why it is impossible to recover any of what made it an exciting vibrant group.

I don`t know copenhagen, I remember all you speak of....but I guess that I have found many great friends since leaving twi. I truly think that the camradery and like mindedness that you described, comes from investing ones self with people whom have similar goals. Goodness, we invested our hearts and souls into God, serving him via twi for decades....You try investing that kind of time and effort into most any cause that you are passionate about and you will generally find people that you like and respect that share your zeal. I see it in the group of us that participates in fund raising activities for our local battered womens shelter, our karate school, our home school activity group, our horse training facility friends...our arabian club friends...the kid`s theatre group...Our neighbors..our little country church..... I have found that it takes a lot of time, effort and enthusiasm invested to achieve the intimacy of fellowship that you are hungry for.... We all were that way about twi at one time....we were all passionate and like minded, there were so many terrific people that shared the same ideas and goals we did....we are alll still out here.....it is just that now we have found different activities to invest ourselves in and become passionate about. God`s still there with us...we are still learning and growing, we are still serving... it is just in different directions that we personally and individually find exciting and fulfilling. Try investing as much time and thought as we did in twi in another group or activity for a while and see if you don`t find wonderfull folks that share your exhuberance... a sense of purpose. What you are missing is still available, just not in twi it would seem. Have you considered that in being kept busy in twi where you are miserable, there is very little left to invest in something that would make your efforts feel meaningfull and appreciated...build the feeling of brotherhood. Copenhagen, your description of life in twi reminds me forcebly of being stuck in a very bad marriage....lonely and miserable year after year, unable to seek a life with a person whom could care for you and you could love because you are stuck with someone whom mistreats you and whom you resent....you can`t leave, so you spend day after day mooning over what you wish would happen, how you wish that things were different....frustrated, angry, lonely.... Years go by, things never get better and then all of a sudden you realise one day that you are old and you waisted so much precious time being sad and unfulfilled. Imo, life is way too short to not be passionately inspired by what we do and whom we do it with every day...be it in our marriage, our activities, or whom we fellowship with.

(((Wg))) I am sorry that your dear friend is failing. Sudo, you had me bawling this morning. I still grieve over my mindy that we put down 16 yrs ago.... My son has a cockatoo that might live 70 yrs...I wish it were that way with dogs.

Notta, it takes courage to face the truth girl. The people that you described, it appears, cannot deal with the implications that the facts point to. Nobody wants to wake up and find the cause that one has dedicated their life to has been a lie :( It is very sad

All I can say is thank you....thank you thank you. I have been at a loss as to how to deal with this effectively.

Gee seems to me Jesus didn`t follow your rules either oldies...he remembered the saducees and pharacies sins...and spoke of them...He never asked anybody to forgive them, just condemned them and their actions soundly. What a meanie...speaking and teaching in a manner that billions of people through out history would read about and recognize the evil...tut tut how unloving, how unkind....guess he is right there with us in deep doo doo. Gosh...and he has already told us that there are going to be some that he will tell to depart on the day of judgement who call on his name....how unforgiving...what a jerk....

Average age?? Gotta be 40s-60s, I imagine. Hard ...because Istill picture us all as still in our early 20s lol

Gosh if THAT doesn`t describe vp and twi :o

I certainly didn`t stay because it was so great. I stayed because I was told that I would die if I left...I endured terrible treatment because I was told that if I did not, I was stiff necked and would become posessed.... I humbly obeyed and stayed in spite of the horrible things required, in spite of the unfair treatment because I loved God and believed twi leaders when they said that they were the only ones with the truth....to leave would to become a *spiritual empty* :( When I was taking pfal, one of the wows undershepherding me was killed in a care wreck...I saw it ...I was 17 yrs old and was told that Satan had taken her out.... I always knew in the back of my mind..that if I wasn`t really carefull spiritually...if I didn`t keep every door closed...that could be my fate as well. Death was always the very real consequence for not complying 100 percent. As far as this being America and we are all free to chose??? If twi or any of the offshoots require peoples participation because of teachings like those I mentioned....*I* have a problem with them.... it is wrong period even if the law DOES permit exploitation through lies and manipulation.

Amen to the rain in alabama, southern tn as well. Sorry that texas has to suffer, but we are in desperate need of a good rain.

Good thing you weren`t young female and pretty Dave, or you might be singing a different tune today Gee I`m sorry I just can`t put on a positive outlook for rape or forced abortions, or my brothers and sisters dying from foolish decisions and teachings by vp and lcm... I am sorry that I can`t feel upbeat about the humiliation and the face meltings endured... The bible???Yeah we learned some of that....but most of what we learned was simply twisted into a tool to make us feel required to submit and accept the outrageous treatment. What good is the bible if THAT s what was used to enslave and cause hurt? Yeah, I know that it isn`t God`s fault or the scripturse fault that it was misused to hurt and drag people away from his love and protection....never the less...my skin still crawls when I read most scripture, because I remember many verses that I read when they were missaplied to grant someone else authority...when they were used to justify the harm that they did...when they used it to enforce their wills, desires, and lusts. I personally don`t think anything we learned was worth the cruelty and suffering that was inflicted on innocent yound christians, who`s biggest mistake was looking for God there.

Outfield, Did you notice how they (the class promoters) usually were the ones to feed you the questions that they provided the answeres for? I wouldn`t be confident in the answeres that these folks provide. Anybody including Satan supposedly can speak/teach the word...and teach it in an appealing manner...no??? That does not necessarily mean that what they have taught you is spiritually wholesome or healthy. Many of us here at greasespot WERE in twi while wierwille was in charge...do you know that he was drugging and raping our sisters in christ??..so no, I wouldn`t call it a picnic. People were tormented by cruel treatment, families destroyed, and lives lost ...seriously...both before and after his death.... According to scriptures, anyone that does the things these leaders did habitually...is not someone trustworthy to present the *truth*

You are right Groucho...sales sales sales I was so excited going to my first state meeting as a new app corpes. I thought...finally...I am going to start learning some of those great spiritual truths that will help me to grow and mature into a powerfull believer.... Upon arrival, we were divided up into pairs and dropped around the neighborhood for an evening of witnessing. Oh brother....I was so bummed out on the 3 hr drive home....I was forcefully reminded of how mortifying it was to try to sell oranges door to door for school ....people hated having their evenings interrupted by people selling stuff. I glumly realized that I was going to be selling *oranges* of one form or another for the rest of my life....that this was the single greatest measure of my growth and spirituality. Did I bring a new person to twig....did I have a new person in class...these meant that I was alright with God...if I ever failed to have a new person in the next class, it meant that I had blown it spiritually.... I cannot describe how bleak the prospect for the rest of my life looked on that long drive home.

Dooj, those techniques ....ed me off and seemed so dishonest. Gosh...I was invited to hear a great christian group play a free concert in birmingham.....I went to a *take a stand caravan* as a newbie...omg afterwards...I was freaking surrounded...I kid you not, there was a circle of people around me doing that high pressure sales crap. Some of the band members, some of the wows, a whole lot of strangers... There was no wiggle room...there was no polite answere that I could give that didn`t have some smart come back...I was mortified finding myself to be the center of attention of so many people... I remember mumbling that I didn`t have 100 dollars....they asked...well how much DO you have....I only had 60 dollars in the bank...(for petes sake I was a 17 yr old waitress still in high school)....they said...GREAT..we`ll take it ...have the other 40 before the class starts next week. They were completely and utterly SHAMELESS! I remember feeling so pressured, so scammed...I only went to hear the music man...and I ended up signing up for a class that I didn`t want and couldn`t afford. Those high pressure sales pitches always felt dishonest to me, and in later years I resented the hell out of being required to impliment them myself.

I`ll lift my glass er mug to that toast wg! I know that happened a long time ago...all of the things that have been shared here....it still hurts to read them. It is hard to hear about people being treated so despicably,

It was in my bible slid behind an old wow cartoon I had cut out from a grape vine....lol I have a whole box full of twi trivia....the old flyers and programs from 10 yrs of roa...wow bands...tickets...promos....the old wow book, the new wow book....articles....sound out...adv class....lol don`t ask my why I keep the garbage :) I have an old box of reel to reel sunday service...int class...etc...probably every book or mag put out in the late70s through early 90s. stickers...small booklets...witnessing cards retemorie cards...if I ever figure out how to take pics and put stuff on ebay...look out!

I guess that I find it personally disturbing that After 15 years of not being involved with twi that I could lay my hands on a green card in 5 miniutes...shiver

Estabishes and maintains a positive attitude?? Hmmm by teaching us to live in a state of denial, to pretend that there were no negatives, to forbid us to talk about anything other than approved subjects..... Makes life meaningfull??? Only if you are on their agenda...wow adv class way corpes tc....otherwise you were a *bump on the log spiritually* How meangfull did you feel YOUR life was at the end of a tirade or face melting?? Overcomes worry and fear?? Well I guess...this goes back to living in denial...pretend that there is nothing to worry about...pretend that to think anything other than scriptures is leaving room for satan to enter....I guess we became more like walking talking zombies, just parroting scriptures because that was the only safe thing to think or utter. Promotes prosperity and health?? I dunno, I never was prosperous in twi...as a matter of fact, the actions required were detrimental to my ability to earn an income. I was never healed of my asthma, I got a horrible intestinal virus that darn near finished me off from the water at roa one year...I`d have to say this one was pretty rediculous... Explains bible contradictions?? Snort, the bible according to vpw...why it is ok to do ALL of the things that scriptures tell us NOT to do with impunity... Developes more harmony in the home?? I suppose so since I was required to leave my contaminated natural man family in order to please God...there was indeed harmony ...seeing as how there was no one left to cause discordant notes... Enables you to seperate truth from error?? My AR$E!! Or we`d a known that vp was drugging and raping our teenaged sisters....we would have known that scriptural interpretations ala vpw was simply a way of arranging the truth to say what he WANTED them to say....ie adultery fornication, alcoholism, cruelty, theft, lying was all lawfull to them which are in christ...bah Disciplines the mind by believing?? Me?? I`d say in reality that renewed mind crap simply taught us to close our mind to all outside influences...including the very voice of God. Teaches how to pray effectively?? Oh yeah, God the cosmic vending machine...I desire this, I believe that you should supply it, There for You God of the heavens and universe are required to honor my demand....it never worked.... I have learned so much about God and answered prayers SINCE dumping that foolishness.... Like I said ...the hypocarcy of every written promise there makes my blood boil.

On one side of the card it says.... Establishes and maintains a positive attitude makes life meaningfull Overcomes worry and fear Promotes prosperity and health Explains apparent bible contradictions Developes more harmony in the home Enables you to seperate truth from error Disciplines the mind by believing Teaches how to pray effectively. On the other side it says... Please accept my enrollment on the foundational class on POWER for ABUNDANT LIVING Agreement: I am enrolling in the class because I am searching for an accurate knowledge of the word of God and desire to increase the power of God in my life. I understand: 1. I am expected to attend every session on time to recieve the benefits of the class. 2. After completeing the classw, I may attend the Foundational Class at any location. signature of student__________________________ address @ telephone # I hope this helps you Dan, the hypocracy of it just makes me mad...

*I`m sorry* is an excellent way to begin wth.

That is what convinces me....the lack of Godly sorrow, the lack of repentance, the lack of restitution.... All of these things scream of a spiritual and moral bancruptcy. These people think only of covering their arses ...of schemes of how to get people to return...Because they care about people??? Oh HEYAL no ...they need fresh blood, fresh money, numbers to justify their existence....to make them feel like they are accomplishing something.... Maybe we need new classes, new books, new this new that...I don`t think they will ever get it.

Can I be in charge of the stable? I will organize trail rides, camp outs, I will train the horses...etc :)

Larry, you have had plenty of first hand information that you have chosen to ignore. You chose instead to vilify those who presented the information. Me being foolish? Delusional?? No doubt if you label me as such, it makes it appear more acceptable to dismiss the merit of my pov.

Larry, I was never a false prophet who represented myself as a minister, God`s spokesman. I never utilized that as the authority to steal that which didn`t belong to me. That is what this thread is about. Sure, I have my own sins to answere for, that is the invariable results of following a false prophet and embracing false doctrines that distance us from God.