rascal

Well now that really IS stupid..I LIKE Groucho and enjoy his posts ...lol :) I guess I don`t think much of a teacher of any kind of style that propounds that kind of crap. I have competed in open tournaments as have my kiddoes. The tae kwon do students big dramatic movements are generally able to be countered by the shorter more direct karate techniques...shrug... Either way, The martial arts students around these parts have mutual admiration, respect and understanding of one another and their specific styles, as well as what makes each of them unique and effective. Dooj, lead with my chin or not, I post what I think, and in spite of your numerous assertions of embarrassing myself, it would be less than honest to alter my posts or opinions or style to suit you. Why not let me post my thoughts? Can we limit our comments to our opinions to the subject at hand rather than why one anothers points or opinions should be invalidated?

Dooj, what you said was fine... now THIS is a demonstration of ignorance of the art, no doubt an attempt at being deliberately offensive. I don`t know any self respecting martial arts student from either style that would make that claim. Linda, Thank you.

Jeff I have absolutely no idea what those numbers mean and until you pointed them out hadn`t noticed them before. I meant what I said. I am sorry that I ever tried to say anything.

Tag, I think that it is great that you area excited about finding teachings on line. It seems to be something that communicates well for you. I think however that it would be cool if you could consider that God is able to work in a variety of mediums, through different people of different belief systems within whatever the parameters that they will allow him. The supposed superior understanding of the scriptures, trinity dead alive now etc did not prevent twi leaders from being incredibly cruel and evil. Likewise, I have seen that an absence of heavy duty scriptural study does not prevent people from being energized vital christians involved in service to God. :)

Alright Jeff, sorry that I said anything at all. Well said Tzaia.

No laughing here, I admire Chuck Norris and your point is absolutely valid. Now I understand a little better what you were talking about. Thanks for clarifying :) Way WAY off topic: My very favorite CN story is where he was teaching Steve Mqueen privately, and it was decided that attending a yoga class would help loosen tight muscles. The two macho men were required to don leotards, Chuck using his superior speed and agility to snatch the blue ones leaving Steve the pink....Him telling Steve to suck it up as they left the dressing room in their finery only to have Chuck quickly step back into the dressing room slam and lock the door leaving Steve out in the middle of the studio with all of the tittering ladies dressed in pink leotards :)

Dooj, as a karate student, We are trained to exert just enough force to protect ones self, whether it be a young buck in class, a competition, or indeed in a real life self defense situation. No more. In a competition unnecessary force is penalized by point loss, in real life, legally prosecutable. As I improve, my ability to disarm an opponent and render them unable to cause harm without doing damage is a mark of the level of my competence. So yeah, I would attempt to treat the youngster with a soft touch knowing that education, experience and maturity has made it important for me to show restraint instead of *taking him out* even when he acts as if he deserves it.

Dooj How can anyone hear the *responsible adults* if what one sees lines up with the worst that he has been told about the copped out possibly devil possessed disgruntled former followers of twi? Shoot, I had responsible adults trying to help me 30 years ago...I couldn`t hear what they had to say because when they said it, though time later proved them to be right, they were attacking a group and people that I loved. It was the people who were able to share things with me in a non confrontational way that planted seeds that later germinated into the niggling doubts that eventually opened the doors to my departure. I also think that as responsible adults, it is possible to have the capacity for kindness, the maturity to see past the controversy and the capability to present our points in a manner that someone can receive, rather than just getting upset and lambasting someone for their choices.

No thanks, I don`t feel I need to drink in order to post. Please feel free to put my posts on your handy dandy little ignore button and then you won`t be further irritated by my sobriety, or disagreeable point of view. They are mine, I am not constrained to post only in the manner in which rr approves and appreciates. :)

But twinky he did give information. His age, a little bit about his back ground etc. He really doesn`t owe us anything at all. Seems like a nice guy to me. Young idealistic, on fire for God. He reminds me of us 20 years ago, no? Maybe I am wrong..shrug it was just how I saw things at the time. Otherwise kind and caring people who seemed hostile in their posts. I just wanted to remember that we are talking to a young man whom has not the scope or experience to understand the roots and possible pit falls of this group. I know if folks tried to talk to me about the ministry like we just did when I was his age, I`d have been a lot more provoking...lol I just felt like maybe if we were a bit more understanding, a bit less interrogating, he might get to know and appreciate some of our points of view.

Jeff, my post was well meant ... an attempt at a gentle reminder of where we all came from and how far we have come together. I`d hate to see someone feel so besieged and bullied that they were uncomfortable sharing and in return maybe learning a little bit from our perspective as well. I apologize for not communicating that better. I am afraid that rr is reading a nastiness towards you into my post that I never intended. You are a pretty fair fellow, so I hope that you can read my request with the understanding and in the spirit that it was given.

Twinky, the fella did come back and post. Jeff, I think you ought to lighten up a bit. Caleb apologized. Most of us don`t have a full understanding of how truly reprehensible twi leaders and off shoot leaders behavior has been when we arrive here. I seem to remember being reprimanded by you for speaking ill of wierwille when you first arrived. It takes time to learn and come to grips with the true horrors of what many of us have suffered. It takes time to re evaluate an entire life time of beliefs and teachings in light of that. I don`t think that running at somebody with a ball bat swinging is going to help them hear a different point of view. This kid had the guts to post, and the grace to apologize. There are several pages of questions directed at him, some pretty harsh. It might seem like a gang banging to him. I`d like to hear what he has to say.

Lol, pleased to meet you Caleb :P I am Cathy, was a wow in 79, and again in 85 maybe your folks and I crossed paths at some point. My oldest son is your age. My eldest daughter begins college this fall in pursuit of her criminal law degree. Both have grown up in the south (tenn) and know what it is to work hard on the farm. It`s great to be a kid in the country eh? I love your euphanisms and am glad that you were kidding about showing up on someones doorstep. (It was funny) I wrote and erased several times a reply in my previous post, because I was afraid it might be misconstrued as genuinely threatening in return....I will re post now that we are on the same page. Edited from earlier post: Bring it on friend, but before you show up unanounced....a simple warning: that SOME of the posters here have BIG dogs, a permit to carry, and have studied martial arts for the last 8 years.... In truth my dogs don`t bite and I rarely shoot, and I am pretty slow for all of my karate training :) More than likely, I`d invite you in for supper and you would have to deal with my forty leven kids (a much scarier prospect than the guns or dogs ) for the evening. Seriously, glad to meet you and look forward to learning more about you and your perspective.

I am with mstar, at least someone has the guts to come and discuss their beliefs. Welcome sowers grad :) Friend, I have no doubt about your enthusiasm and the good intentions of the participants in your program...I honestly don`t..But can`t you see that is no different than most of us were 20 plus years ago...We were on fire with the word, reaching out to the world, it was our lives, our entire beings...we believed it....lived it for decades. Thing is, we were terribly used and mistreated by the very people whom purported to be ministers of God. You said that you didn`t want to hear any 2nd hand accounts about vp...Well there are people here whom personally were hurt by vp, by the people that he personally hand picked and trained, by his successors. Can you bear to hear personal heart breaking accounts? Have you the courage to listen to the people that were actually there, that experienced first hand the perversions from these men and women? I have to tell you that it is usually the people whom never met or interacted with wierwille that are the most adamant and cruel in his defense. There are podcasts on the front page that can be down loaded from interviews with the one time trunk coordinator of the us. He saw the not so public side of twi. There is one from Kristin Skedgill(sp?) about her interaction with vp she even wrote a book. We have individual posters here, who have told their stories of drugging and rape, families who told of the seduction and destruction of young family members, people being told to report to the bus to find a naked and expecting wierwille...there are first hand accounts at messiah 7 if there isn`t enough first hand accounts here. Can you handle the truth about the roots of the doctrine you hold to be truth? Can you honestly believe that a rotten tree can bear good fruit? Can you courteously sit back and listen to what people have to say without threatening bodily harm? If you are here for a ....ing contest, there is no point in bothering to share with you our first hand experiences. If you are truly interested in hearing what people have to say, in hearing our experiences, are willing to try to see us as those neighbors that are to be loved, rather than adversarial targets...I`d love to talk with you :)

His beginnings were as humble as most of ours. He didn`t start out as a golf playing cigar smoking rich guy from fla. That is the reward of many years of hard work and success :)

Meds and therapy were not available to me at the time, cheranne. It probably wouldn`t have taken me nearly so long to come to the conclusions that I have, had I had some help.

Yes..he does. Not audibly, no...But I have learned to recognize it never the less. The times that come to mind are when I was in turmoil...really upset and I would be thinking my thoughts of misery...and a crystal clear thought would break through. It would be so calm and peaceful, so powerful and in complete total opposition to what I had previously been thinking. Sounds like schizophrenia, I know, it is even kind of embarrassing to admit it...(nobody wants to be nuts) but that is how he seems to work for me. There were so many times that it would be followed up by things that would absolutely confirm to me where it came from. Excathedra, I think that is cool.

I think that sometimes, it just takes time. I think that other activities, involvement with people who don`t act and think the same way I do have helped tremendously. New hobbies and interests, indulging in activities that I enjoy that have no merit or practical gain lol... are just some of the things that I think have helped me post twi. Good friends, great community, martial arts, theatre, horses, kayaking, rambunctious kids....all activities that get me outside of my little box or comfort zone. I see each as contributing and developing the person and character that I intend to be. I remember after leaving twi...it may have been almost 10 years...but I got so excited when one day, I realized that my life in front of me was a blank slate. I could fill the rest of it up with whatever pleased me...I could be whoever I wanted to be....I was free! I don`t think that we can throw a mental switch and blammo we are *fixed* from our twi involvement...What I do think is that God has been at work through the situations and people that I have been involved with since leaving...gently leading ... helping me to recognize and change the damaging thought processes that made me vulnerable to cult think in the first place. So yeah, I agree brainfixed, I had to throw out anything that walked, talked, smelled like, or resembled twi in ANY way. I had to humble myself and recognize that what I had been taught about God, what I believed about life, the universe, my place in it and my responsibility was all so interspersed with lies and that I needed to start all over again with a fresh new foundation.

Does anybody remember the teachings when wierwille thought that russia was going to take over? How we were told that if it was a question of survival, let the kids die...that we could always have more, but that we would be the only repositories for the word and that must survive. How about abortion being required for babies conceived while involved in a twi program? Children were always expendable in twi.

Hey Tag, I understand what you are saying about having a wider view of things and their importance. I guess that though concerned about muslim extremism, and dismayed at a current political leaders etc...I have had no personal contact or experience with either. What I do know and understand is that podunk little cult in Ohio that had a significant impact on myself, my spouse, my children and so many many of my friends. I don`t care about the cult so much as to know why I was so foolish, what made me vulnerable, how could I have been so deceived, why didn`t I stand up for myself, when did I stop thinking, how do I make damned sure it doesn`t happen again.

I agree with highway about every person seeking their own unique path, at least that is how it has been for spouse and I. What will work for one will not necessarily be the path for another. I had to start all over again with a new foundation....I couldn`t handle any more scriptural study, I knew that they could be made to say whatever the person in charge wanted to. I wasn`t interested in truth or doctrine, as far as I could tell none of it really mattered in what my daily personal responsibility was. What an incredibly freeing idea. Not needing to know who was right or where I should be serving or was I on the right path...etc. Whichever direction I choose to go in, it seems that God is there working within whatever the parameters that am willing to allow.

That is sick. :(

I don`t have a problem with anxiety, you are mistaken. Now can we return to the topic at hand rather than the condition of rascal`s emotional well being?

But I do think that flogging yourself endlessly for the sins of others is embarassingly showy. Dooj that is a very creepy thing to say. I express my pov, my ideas, and you seem to have a need to diminish that input, somehow make it seem sick or that I am seeking attention. What a disgusting way to treat someone for not lining up to your way of thinking.

Glad your amused rumrunner....really.... Fortunately, I don`t give damn whether you understand or agree with my thoughts or not. It is my opinion, that your lack of appreciation for input that doesn`t line up with your way of thinking does not necessarily invalidate what I have to contribute.