rascal

Well, there are amish communities here that do without not only the internet, but auto mobiles, electricity, telephones. They feel the same way about most modern conveniences as you do about the internet and electronic gadgets....personally ... I LIKE warm showers and refridgerators, clothes washer and dryer. I adore horses, but don`t want to spend an entire afternoon looking at ones butt as i ride to and from town. I can and have done without all of the above modern conveniences, but doggone it...I sure don`t have too. My kids all play games and use the internet as well, but it is a pleasure, a luxury to be enjoyed, not an obsession to feel guilty about. Maybe you could compromise? Agree to the amount of time they spend on games and you spend on the net?? Like an hour a day. I think life is too short not to do what we enjoy. If this is what you like...why not do it?

Money heck..I want my youth and lost opportunities of college and career :( I want the time back that should have been spent with grandparents and friends who have since passed away....the time that I spent instead sanding and painting bed frames at emporia....and picking up garbage in ohio and witnessing and running twigs and running classes bringing new members and more money in.....the time I lost in going wow and such ...leaving family and friends and forsaking college because who needed a worldly family or knowledge??? I want it ALL back... The hypocracy of removing cop outs books and music because it was unsafe and dangerous........but not of removing themselves from the grounds and buildings that we bought and built ...just chaps my bu tt.

Bolshevic, you are correct, Rosey has her own money...but she doesn`t use it to maintain her house...lawn....pool...living expenses...that is all done courtesy of twi paycheck and free labor from the corpes. if I am not mistaken. I understand that her money was one of the things that helped her up the twi leader as it did so many. Twi always had a way of targeting the people that would make them look good or more legitimate.

Well in the past, I have been made very uncomfortable with ongoing requests for names of people and specifics of situations that I wasn`t at liberty to give....so maybe I am feeling a smidge defensive here. You are faced with the dilemna of being suspected as a liar or betraying a confidence entrusted to you. Imo... it is enough to say that it happened. It isn`t my job to convince anybody by providing details to satisfy someones curiosity.

Don`tworrybehappy, Thanks for taking the time to share that information. That kind of shoots a hole in mike`s verbal tradition verses the written doctrine. It has been long suspected that rths was simply a minimally changed copy of stiles book.

WashingtonWeather...THAT was a gutsy thing to do. I admire any of you who stood up when things were wrong and tried to fix them. Being the koolaid drinker that I was, I never did...I believed that it was evil not to follow every order no matter how insane...that to disobey, I would lose God`s protection. Any who had the courage to stand up...have my respect. It was a frightening thing to do...to go against our teachings, to God`s ministry, his leaders, to risk everything to stand up for what was right. whew.

I disagree with your disagreement. When demanding more, many times rather than the innocent request for more information for a clearer illustration, it is simply an ongoing attempt to discredit a poster and derail a thread. Nobody owes anyone any more information than they are willing to give. It`s a sneaky way of inferring that one is a liar.

Mike, you are afforded every courtesy here. I didn`t accuse you of derailing...I accuse you of misapropriately applying polar bears noble attempts to address the evil of twi with your shameless never ending pfal info mercial. Not in the same ball park, not even close. Twi didn`t listen because they embraced evil..... people don`t listen to you because you promote the doctrine that allowed the evil to run rampant. NOW I charge you with derailing for yet another shameless pfal plug :)

You know...everything...I mean EVERYTHING twi has....they owe to us. Us the copped out ones...the ones out in left field...the little pittance they recieve from the pathetically few faithfull can hardly be enough to pay the light bills, and legal fees anymore. WE are the ones who gave the money to buy their buildings and property...WE are the ones who witnessed and held fellowships in our homes ...ran classes free of charge....to bring people to twi who in turn brought more people with their money and free labor. We financed the ministry, we bought the buildings that they live and work in, we provided the food that they ate, the tables and utensils they ate on....the clothes on their backs...the very toilet paper that they wipe their sanctimonious bu tts on..... What I am saying is....that the people that are left are NOT the ones who built that ministry. What did twi do when one of us was declared posessed or m&a??? Well if you were an author, your books were removed from the shelves....if you were a musician ...your tapes pulled from the book store..artists...your work was no longer acceptible in peoples homes. Any photograghs your loved ones had were to be removed and destroyed....lest one of the faithfull become spiritually contaminated. What I am saying is...that isn`t it ironic that everything they have ....everything that they enjoy, down to the morsels of food they place in their sanctimonious mouths .....the chairs that they sit their soft fat undeserving fannies in....was provided courtesy of US.....those too vile to be associated with....those whom are too spiritually contaminated to be allowed on grounds to attend services in the auditorium WE built....our ears too evil to be permitted to listen...our eyes too vile to read their publications. I wonder why the spiritual contamination doesn`t appear to spread to our money that they spend, and the property that we provided? You have to wonder why they cannot allow a book or photo or music of a m&a person ......but everything that we built, that our contaminated money bought still remains spiritually clean.

Ever seeking but never coming unto a knowledge of the truth....kind of fits in there I think Twinky.

I don`t know what you expect when you are attempting to promote a doctrine that placed so many of us into the darkest of spiritual bondage Mike. That isn`t even isn`t the same ball park with what polar bear is talking about.... We fought too hard for our freedom, we have come way too far in our healing and understanding for pfal to hold any appeal friend. I personally think that you are given quite a bit of leeway and freedom to promote your personal agenda her at greasespot...and think that it is mighty silly, not to mention thankless for you to whine about persecution simply because your attempts are not well recieved... Polar bear, I wish that I had been couragious enough to have spoken up :( I totally believed that the lack was in my spirituality and understanding....that if I could JUST get all of the physical details into alignment, that the spiritual would follow. What a crock, we were just taught how to ignore the egregious error, and continue to support those perpetrating the evil.

For folks that like doughy crust and easy...my Mom always used pillsbury hot roll mix when we were kids. I used to make it for my family ...but when you have to make 4 to feed everybody...it takes all night. Lol now days Dominoes is cheaper and faster.

You know....if any one of us ever showed up to accept the forgivness due...I imagine many of those at hq would wet themselves. I imagine walking into that place head held high, peace in my heart, no worries about being nailed for rediculous petty little nit picky excuses. Think about how they have been stagnating in their little pool of inbred religion, while the rest of us out here in the real world have been enjoying participation in vibrant learning and growth in the various directions that we have been led since our departure.... I just don`t think they would know what to do if they met a genuine spirit filled christian....rather than one of their stooping and bowing minions who are terrified of slipping and allowing satan in..... or of maybe failing some little physical detail, and getting reamed by leaders.....or one of their arrogant blow hard bullies. Seems like those are the only two types of people there. What would they do with one of us who was unafraid and they were unable to intimidate? Well yeah, call the law...but I just think they have spent so many years in isolation they have become stagnated, they are atrophied in so many ways. ' The idea of twi understanding a principle as simple as forgiveness is ludicrous.

Dearest Excathedra, I am not waiting for an apology from any twi leader....to quote my favorite story book character...*THAT would be optimistic to the point of foolishness* :) I certainly don`t feel like I need to forgive them either. The people who think we ought to forgive them generally follow up with ...now we have to stop talking about what they did, stop warning others of the danger they pose, stop analyzing their behavior for clue as to how to avoid falling for future snares set. God is the only one who can work in their cold arrogant hearts....I leave it to him to bring them to a point where they seek repentance. In the meantime, I continue to view them with the same disdain and disgust that was recorded when Jesus addressing the pharacees and saducees, that took advantage of God`s people....shrug Whited selpulchers, I saw a neat thing on the history channel. According to this guide....that *whited* sepulchers (they are still in jeruselem cemetaries today) ...were painted white because the bodies contained within had died of contagious diseases...they were painted white to warn people not to get to close because of the ongoing chance of contamination. These leaders Jesus was referring to....were all white and shiny on the outside...but were filled inside with the stenche of death and disease...putrid ....though nice and clean looking on the outside.....still capable of infecting one if they inadvertently approached too close. That doesn`t sound like Jesus had a very forgiving attitude when referring to those poor saducees that just needed our forgiveness.

Ok, I am speaking of a different verse...I will find it. Still doesn`t negate the verse I quoted from Luke. When the scumbags repent and ask for forgiveness, then they will cease to be scum bags as far as I am concerned, and I will readily forgive them....untill then they are still nothing more than arrogant amoral creeps that continue enslaving and hurting people in God`s name. Those who have not repented, who have not asked, have then not yet been forgiven by God. Since God for some reason doesn`t forgive without the prerequisite repentance and asking....... then I think that it is pretty audacious to think that I ought out guess God in what is the appropriate procedure.

PRECISELY...it is a gift that WE can chose to give...as Jesus asked on behalf of those who cruified, and stephen asked on behalf of those whom stoned him... But it isn`t required, it isn`t like we are bad for holding people to the required standard...if someone wants to do that....cool by me, but I`ll be darned if someone will twist the scriptures (not you ex) to make them say that I have to. It is between them and God. My thought is that if they ever repent before God, they will be moved to apologize to us as well.

Yeah...but you left out the part in that same verse that said IF he repent.....forgive 70 x7 I challeng you to read it in it`s entirety. Jesus also told the desciples in Luke17:4 and if he tresspass against thee seven times in a day, (here is the important part) and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. I agree, we need to get our hearts right when we repent. I think the asking forgiveness comes naturally from a repentant heart. Why would God forgive someone who hadn`t changed..someone who refused to ask??? Why should I??? What is it that makes it wrong for me to follow and apply the criteria that God requires?

Well Linda, I thought that it was pretty self explanetory... God REQUIRES repentance and asking before he ever forgives...sometimes, as in the case of Jesus and Stephen, they asked for forgiveness on behalf of those who murdered them.... At any rate, he requires SOMEONE to ask, it would seem. I am at a loss why someone would tell me that I ought to forgive without the prerequisit criteria being met any more than they would demand God wave the prerequisit of repentance and asking..... I`ll forgive the skunks that hurt us when and if that criteria has been met. If you think I am being hard hearted or mean..... Tell God he oughtta not be so mean either.

To me ... it is like telling God that he too needs to forgive everybody all the time whether they repent/ask for/deserve it or not. He requires certain criteria before he grants forgiveness...plain and simple...Why would one redefine what forgivness is or under what circumstances it is to be granted?

Well...yeah. provided that they seek repentance and ask forgivness...I wouldn`t argue that. God sets out the guidelines for what is necessary in order to forgive....why did stephen ask God to forgive those who were killing him? Why did Jesus ask God to forgive those who didn`t know what they were doing??? I am assuming that otherwise the murderers wouldn`t be forgiven....it seems that God requires being asked before he grants it...whether from the sinner or the one sinned against....SOMEBODY has to ask before it forgivness is granted....shrug.

I dunno, I guess one would have to ask then, what constitutes a stone? Rape, abortion, forced sexual servitude, humiliation, degredation. intimidation, perpetual hunger...I just don`t see those as legitimate tools to be used in foraging the character and ability to become a minister for God....much less a training program for God`s elite crack troops.

Well I guess that I just can`t see telling God...Hey buddy...you HAVE to forgive us no matter WHAT we do whether we repent or not ..whether we cease the harm we are doing to others, or not .... because it will make you feel better...it is required..if you don`t forgive, you are a big selfish meanie bu tt. Isn`t that what you guys are saying that you require of me?? God said that when we repent (this seems to be required) and ask...he is faithfull and just to forgive us.... If one actually READS the 70 times 7 verse......it actually says IF they repent...seems like people always want to forget that part of the verse.

Well.. I probably could have insisted that they don`t do it at all pmosh...it IS after all a respect issue. It is a struggle to raise teens today period....I try to pick my battles rather than just camping on their tails dawn till dusk...it is easier to get their willing cooperation than to bully them constantly over the little things... Language doesn`t bother me personally so much as discernment of where and what is said when it is appropriate. What they say to their buddies certainly isn`t appropriate to say to their younger brothers and sisters...and never in church. They know if they use particular words around some people that they will not be allowed to participate in activities with them. Their choice. Anyway, I wouldn`t be so hard on your folks pmosh...You babies don`t come with an instruction manual....we struggle along to do the best we can.....we learn so much with the first child, try so hard to do everything just right, then we realise how anal that we have been ...kind of figure out what is a big deal and what is not....and tend to relax with the next kid. My children say the same thing about us....how easy my youngest 3 have it compared to them...I said the same thing about my mom and my three younger syblings..... It ain`t easy to be the oldest and it ain`t fair, but that is how it is...lol :)

lmao dave :)

Well...with 4 teens in the house, their buddies, etc....their mouths got progressively nastier...I wouldn`t have minded so much but I have younger children in the house that DON`T have the discernment of when it is appropriate to NOT use such language..... Anyway, we made em start changing the words...if you HAD to say anything....you had to change the words to describe what you were saying without swearing......instead of f ---- you...it was fornicate you, or... manure head...oh urinate on you...or you maternal fornicating low life male off spring of a female canine....anus orfice was always a favorite.....bovine excrement...manure cerebelum....you are such a mammary gland....they got pretty creative and it was never anything that the youngsters were even remotely tempted to repeat.... It was a phase they went through, and now we don`t have too much trouble with bad language.