rascal

Precisely skyrider, I had a humble desire to be able to serve God to the very best of my ability. I just wanted to be my very best for him...I didn`t want to be a leader, I didn`t want any part of that God`s elite crack troops...I just had a humble desire to be the very best servant possible, where ever and however God wanted or needed me.. I didn`t have natural leadership ability, I assumed that God would have to develop some in me if he wanted me there...The classes required had never been offered in any state that I had lived in in all of my years of involvement, I assumed they would be made available some how...When I applied, the plan was to live at home and save every penny towards tuition, it would have worked, but immediately it was decided for me that I needed to live in a way home....I assumed that money would be no obsticle+-, if I was following my leaders orders....so low and behold at the end of my app year...there was very little tuition saved after a year of traveling to required meetings, running classes, expenses of a way home.... So THEN it was MY fault, MY lack of believing, MY lack period...the classes would have been available some where in the south eastern region, had my heart been right don`t ya know??? I was screamed at for my lack of way corpes heart.... Puzzled, hurt, ashamed, I mumbled to the lc...did he think that a year on the wow field could help me develop in those areas that I was so deficient....it was crushing For heavens sake, all I wanted to do was to be a blessing to God. My heart, my motives, my desire to serve were pure and innocent. It was on the wow field that I was exposed to the *all things are lawfull* crap for the first time... I gave up and

You DON`T think oldies, that is the problem. It is completely assinine for you to assume what I THOUGHT...what governed MY actions. Here AGAIN...are MY thoughts... When presented, the way corpes training was proclaimed to be the best way to learn to be your best for God PERIOD. When applying for the way corpes, one never was told that it was that one was entering a contract with God....a promise , an irrevocable vow that could not be changed.. That being said...it STILL has nothing to do with the fact that vpw/twi leaders insisted that God, GOD ALMIGHTY creator of the universe required us to abort our children...or face loss of our spiritual connection to him, face probable posession by satan and certain physical death..... WHY on earth would I believe that stupidity??? WHY???? Because THAT is what vpw/twi leaders TAUGHT!!! It was a destructive cruel lie, that holds life long impact.

I don`t think that for me though, abortion right or wrong is the issue. It is that these men who claimed to speak for him...whom claimed that they were owed implicit obediance as his leaders....... insisted that GOD required this service. It was just plain wrong.

Oldies, you are labeling the outrage and pure disgust I feel for what these criminals did to innocent people, people, innocent of guile, who simply made the mistake of looking to them for guidance to God and instruction in rightiousness, as *hurt and bitterness*. Does that some how make the evil more platable to you?? I personally am suprised when anyone is NOT hurt, offended, disgusted, outraged, or incensed at what these people did to innocent men, women, children, yes even the unborn...all in the name of God, under the guise of leadership...shrug

Sorry folks, I let it happen again. I didn`t mean to get dragged off topic in the same old stupid argument. Oldies, your family had status, you benefitted personally under this monsters reign, so you want to dismiss the evil, viscious, soul and life destroying actions.... it probably grieves you not to be *special* any more..fine. Know this though, your denial, your down playing of the horrors endured, dismissal of the deaths caused.... whether directly at vpw`s hands or as a result of his instruction and doctrine, will not in any way mitigate the impact of evil of his actions and life.

I expected to be allowed to make the best decision for myself and that of the child. I never dreamed that in signing up to go into the corpes in order to be my best for God .... that it was an oath, a vow a commitment tpo God that was irrevocable, unbreakable, unalterable...shrug I never have been forced to choose between the life of the child or God.

Guess I don`t care if you think that is insane or not oldies. Doesn`t change the magnitude of the betrayal or the tragedy of the deaths, nor the suffering of the survivors one iota.

Oldies, you were never a woman in that position....pretty damned stupid to think that you knew what we could and could not do... I TRIED to leave....it took them two eeks to find me....I was asked to return to the limb to simply tie up a few loose endes...the bc picked me up and drove me.... I was then told what would happen to me if I failed to honor my vow to God.... The appointment was made FOR me, I was offered financial assistance if needed....I was picked up and TAKEN to the appt. I fled...I couldn`t go through with it...I was then taken again before the lc, more scriptures concerning breath life and such...another appt made...this time the bc took me right into the office..... Speaking as a woman in that position, I have explained what was required and why, I have explained how I felt that there was no other option if I desired to remain IN God`s will, UNDER God`s protection. Damned right I am blaming wierwille, his doctrine, his stooges that enforced his doctrine. God didn`t require that abortion...I didn`t want that abortion...VP`s dogma and organization required that blood. They are no better than the aztec priests that required the blood of the babies to appease the rain God in my opinion. I wish that they had just left me the hell alone.

You know? The crime is that the abortion was presented as the ONLY solution to remaining in God`s will, and remaining alive spiritually and physically. You were bullied into a corner and forced to chose between the life of your child and a life with God :( It isn`t fair, that our love for God, our desire to serve him, and our fear of consequences of not obeying implicitly were the leverage used to make sure that we complied. I have said it before, I could have disobeyed leaders, I could have stood up to any other human on the planet....what I could not so was disobey God.

It WOULD have been much nicer if simply dropping from the corpes was an option...trust me....I tried. I was brought back... I was told that I would be guilty of breaking a vow to God....Having lied....it was brought to my attention how annanias and saphira died for lying to God.... I was told that if I allowed the little paracite... to trick me into breaking my vow, that it would probably be malformed or posessed or whatever.... All it took was a simple clinical little procedure, the mass of cells wasn`t alive untill it took it`s first breath anyway...to make everything allright...after all the sin wasn`t in GETTING pregnant, it was only a sin if you allowed it to compromise your vow.... Nobody wanted to be guilty of breaking their vow to God.... The aborted children were not even whom I was thinking about...though that is another valid point. I was thinking more about those who died by following his doctrine, who ignored physical symptoms or refused medical care because it was taught this was a lack of believing....I was thinking of those who died when participating in unsafe activities required by vpw...the hitchhiking to lead where someone died, the riding up and down the mountain in an unsafe vehicle...the wows that put their faith in him when he said that they should go and grow, who ended up dead at the hands of their coordinator....the people that he cast out of his ministry who crawled awayand died alone.

Well said you guys.. I`d forgotten how mad that whole exchange made me Dot.... Excathedra is a hero for sharing the true side of vp that most of us never saw. Understanding vp`s nature....understanding who and what he really was....this is so vital in beginning our healing, it is the first step in stopping the condemnation and shame of not being good enough, or spiritual enough...etc...to know and understand that vp wierwille wasn`t the end all be all mog...that his doctrine wasn`t spiritually healthy....that is what sets us free to begin healing. For her to come forth and bare her soul...for her to finally break the silence, knowing how difficult it was to share ..... and then have some arm chair psychiatrist 25 years after the fact ....imply that she wanted it, or somehow deserved it....or that it just wasn`t all that bad...is plain low down, heartless, and frankly just plain creepy.

Well...I went and checked first thing this morning...The belt is still there...I guess I am going to have to accept that it really DID happen :) Thank you all SO much for all of your well wishes and support. I just never felt like I had ever accomplished anything noteworthy in my life...I was tired of being minimum wage earning, ex cultie, mom....etc...I wanted to feel like I had accomplished something...like I had some kind of identity of my own. Excathedra asked me why? Well... I guess that I started with simply admiring the grace and agility of a karate student. I know that one time a group of teenaged kids kids attacked and visciously beat the two men I was with...to this day, I think that an angel intervened to stop them from killing us. I remember thinking that I never ever wanted to feel helpless again. Those were a few of the reasons in the beginning. I started with my kids because I didn`t want them to ever feel that kind of helplessness.... One day my instructor sat the children down and asked us all why we studied karate. He then shared with us why he taught it. He said quite simply, that it was important to him that in addition to developing the moral character in kids to stand up for what is right...not just for themselves, but for others....but the physical ability to do so as well.... I thought ..too many times evil succedes because no one has the ability to stand up to it. I was impressed with the black belt principles...honesty, integrety, courage, discipline, etc. I knew at one point this summer that I had achieved my goal...that I was indeed a black belt...well before my promotion...I knew that something had changed inside of me ...that the recognition from the federation and my belt were simply technicalities to be later observed. I was confronted with a frightening situation,....one that I know previously would have had me cowering behind closed locked doors with a gun in hand...(as a matter of fact my mother was doing just that..lol) I remember sucking it up, unlocking the door, knowing that this was the very LAST thing that I wanted to do....but calmly walking out shoulders squared back to confront the situation. I remember starting to get terrified...thinking that I didn`t WANT to be the adult here....but then calm, a peace infused me and over came the terror. I knew then...I knew that I had changed. Turns out that the situation was harmless...but I didn`t know it at the time...the demons (figuratively speaking) that I confronted and conquered were all very real to me. :) Belle, that tatoo is really very cool...Lol....I will be in your neck of the woods soon...maybe then??? lol I am afraid....that I am too afraid of germs to allow someone to stick a needle in me....(parently that sense of courage gained doesn`t extend to germs darn it ) but I love them.

I wanted to share with you my fun. The accomplishment of a life long dream :) I have long admired practitioners of martial arts....admired their skill, their courage, their sense of calm in dangerous situations. Six years ago this month, I began a journey. I started towards a goal that at the time seemed impossible to attain. I just resolved to do my very best anyway. Everyone insisted that I was nuts to attempt to begin karate at 41 years of age. In addition to being seriously asthmatic....I was seriously over weight and out of shape, due to being constantly pregnant for the last nearly 14 years...lol I can remember the skepticism as the sensei looked at me that day. I could see it in his eyes that he figured I`d last a month tops...lol Today, I proudly anounce that I recieved my promotion to black belt. To make this event even more memorable, it was presented to me by the president of our karate federation, at the end of a grueling class where I was preparing for my final exam in 2 weeks. He had been allowing me to participate in his black belt classes as a brown belt. Not that it has been easy, I had a brain fart and failed my exam last spring much to my mortification, and shame. It was a crushing embarrassment...I mean we returned to our families who had a congratulations black belt party complete with cake, dinner and party favors.... To go to the school and admit to my class mates that I had failed was unbearable.... I was congratulated on shaking it off, on continuing in spite of the crushing dissapointment. That black belt was something that you were in side...not just physical skill. Whew, it was worth the wait to receive this honor at the hands and recognition of our president and in front of so many high ranking black belts. I swing from worrying about if this is some sort of fantastic dream that I am going to wake up from, to giddiness over the reality of achieving a long cherished goal. All I can say is that is never to late to start on a dream. Thanks for letting me share my fun :) Cathy

Lol waysider, I felt uncomfortable TOO! What was especially memorable was when I was being witnessed to, I adored the wows, I was invited to see the changed video...The shabby apartment and lack of furniture didn`t bother me....the people smiling and hugging and singing didn`t bother me too much....I enjoyed the fellowship and video very much...I thought ...*MAN I want whatever it is that make these people so happy*. LCM comes on at the end of the tape......frizzy haired...like a greasy used car salesman, fast talking, high pressure crap. I asked who the heck THAT idiot was...he really set my alarm bells to ringing....imagine my chagrin when I find out a few months later that the guy that I took for a sleazy con was slated to be the next prez.... I was so ashamed of my lack of spiritual discernment ability...how COULD I think that about a man who was so obviously spiritual to everyone else that he was chosen of God to lead his spiritual elite??? In hind sight, I guess that my spiritual discerning abilities were right on the BUTTON...it took years of association with twi to dull them, and learn to block out the very voice of God.

Got to see something perfect?? Nope, I saw scritpure tortured into a weapon to defraud and assault innocent people. It wasn`t pretty, it wasn`t good, it left a swath of death and destruction. I certainly don`t think that God had any part of the pain, humiliation and degredation that adherance to pfal brought us.

LMAO Ex..:) Alien abduction would certainly be a whole lot less embarassing explanation than twi cult involvement when people ask.

My accusations are not false. You apparently are unable to handle the truth ...so you try to make people believe that those speaking it, out to be lying. Shame on YOU oldies. Shame on you for being more offended with the people for speaking of wierwilles evil ...than at wierwille for actually committing the atrocities himself. Shame on YOU for falsely accusing people ...whom simply speak of wierwilles evil.

I think your bs counter needs to be serviced oldies, cause it seems to be out of whack. Innocents died at vpw`s hands as well. Children seeking God were mistreated and abused, their lives and trust betrayed. He used the name of God to commit his crimes and atrocities, I think he had a LOT in common with the pharicees...shrug...if anything we are probably being unfair to the pharicees in that comparison. The only shame is on wierwilles head for what he did to people in the name of God.

As a finger pointer, I`ll accept that challenge.... IF I posed a danger to society with my evil actions, if the pernicious evil of my doctrine still was being used as a tool to enslave and hurt...I`d sure as shootin be worried about what people were writing about me. IF my doctrine was still a tool of the men and women that utilized it to garner to themselves power, money, subjegating people to their cruel whims....I guess that I would be sweating bullets about what people were writing about me. Most of us are trying our best to live life with honesty and integrity. There are very few that embrace evil to the extent vpw did and taught others to do as well....most would have pretty boring web sites if it was all about the evil we had done...shrug He will have a lot to answere for when it is examined how many people he drew off track as christians.

I believe this was one of the more insidiously evil teachings of twi. DOn`t look at the 5 senses translated into don`t question ANYTHING your leader tells you to do, no matter HOW assinine. To look at the impact the actions being required would have on your life, was to be looking at things 5 senses wise...ANYTIME you tried to object to mistreatment, rediculous control, things being requisitioned in the name of God...such as your money, your vehicle, your furniture, your time, your life....you were guilty of looking at things through your 5 senses... It was the playing card they pulled out any time they wanted to mistreat you...or worse...insist that you mistreat the people in your fellowship, your friends your family members....even down to throwing the kids out on the streets... Got a problem with any of that???? Renew you mind and quit looking at things from a 5 senses natural man point of view.

This is a travesty. We were TOLD that in order to be the *best* for God....that we had to put our lives into the hands of these leaders...that they would mold and shape us into God`s elite crack troops.... We were told that we must obey these people implicitly...or we were like peter who sank while walking on the water because he looked at the physicals or 5 senses. Poor Liz did exactly as she was told, to imagine.....that the poor girl was washing their damned dishes with an intense headache ...it is absolutely inexcusable in the first place...I can only imagine the pain that she must have been in as she heroically scrubbed somebody elses plates......that she was simply dropped off at the brc when she told them that she was blind and forced to fend for herself....can one imagine the terror??? the pain?? the feeling of shame??? My God how completely heartless....words fail OMG ...to find out that she was condemned for suffering from a brain tumor....to be deprived of something as absolutely precious as ones vision because of unpardonable cruel stupidity.....inexcusable heartlessness.....to then be condemned for her lack of believing???? Instead of sueing those son`s of bi tches for every damned dime they had in their coffers, she instead tries to complete the program with no assistance???? If that rat bas tard (whom by the way up untill this day my husband had tagged as one of the GOOD guys) ever comes to grips with what he cost this woman...I would hope that he would do whatever it took to search this woman out and beg her forgivness. It doesn`t suprise me that that psycho craigenstien used this as an opportunity as a springboard into a rant....we all know that he was a lunatic...I sure don`t know how burton can live with himself. They did these things to Liz in God`s name....Liz suffered because of her desire to serve God....

I don`t recall a single instance recorded where Jesus asked for money when he taught or healed people. Implying that he did without scriptural support is about as brazen as your claim that he will return teaching from a pfal book.

Galatians calls the guys that did what wierwille did *of the flesh, further more..*with NO inheritance in the kingdom of God* When you try to hide these men of the flesh by pretending that they are of the spirit ...*just with natural man minds* as the excuse for the fruit exhibited ..... it is dishonest and in complete opposition of the warnings and admonishment given in the scriptures.

Did good???? Not when he was drugging and raping our sisters...not when he was visciously slandering and destroying innocent youngsters lives when they refused his sexual ministering...not when his teachings caused division of family, separation from friends, death due to adherence to his stupid dogma. What`s NOT to hate about this guy eh?

Waysider, no doubt that you are right in different parts of the country. My observations were based on the amish in this area. For years I took my horses to a fellow to be shod. I spent all day there as it was first come first serve and you never knew how many would be in line in front of you. With this particular family, there was no electricity, no phone, no modern conveniences...now I always brought him a mountain dew, and suckers for my kids to share with his kids...so he didn`t mind modern junk food ...lol I was pregnant usually giving birth about the same time his wife did....and wore my hair in a long braid. One of the highest compliments I ever recieved was when he once said to me, joking I am sure....but never the less......*You could be one of us*... One time I showed up and there were at least 50 buggies and hundreds of people swarming all over an enormous frame work for a barn. Apparently his had burned....it was an amazing heartwarming thing to see this community in action.