rascal

Can you guys set aside your need to defend vpw long enough to just for a miniute try to understand what it was like to be scared and lonely, wanting to be loved, wanting to be healed, for the pain, the shame the self loathing to go away? To want it so bad that you would be willing to shut down those inner warning bells. Can you imagine daring to hope that the great man of God would have the answeres promised...that if one would just put aside their fears, put their lack of understanding on the burner that this man could heal them? Can you for one miniute imagine the shame of being used, and once used handed down to howard or Don while the mog went after a new new conquest? Can you understand the hurt and bitterness when once discovering that nt only were you not healed, you were simply used by a lascivious old pervert? That your usefullness exhausted, nobody cared any more? Try for a miniute guys to understand the pain and shame and disgust.... Try for a miniute some compassion for the youth that was exploited to sate the lusts of these mens bellies.

I think the bible puts it as *a little leaven leaveneth the whole loaf* In other words it doesn`t take much.

As far as the women who were willing. Yes, I know that some were. I want to tell you a story, one that I haven`t shared with anybody. Most of us read the account that carl wrote about how one of the wows that witnessed to him, the next year moved in with him and his brother. That he had sex with her in the afternoons and his brother had sex with her at night. Wow, great everyone was having fun, they were all consenting adults...right? Well...there was an untold side to that story. That girl was my wow sister. She shared with me one night early on in our wow year, that as a very small child... this precious little girl had been raped by an extended family member...she talked about being placed on a bath room counter and not understanding what was going on. She shared a lot with me as we lay together in the dark, how she was raped all through her child hood.... I was completely ill equiped to help her. I could only lay there and listen in horror. The thing is...at 18 she was young and very beautifull......she had no understanding of how to be loved, she wanted to please, she was kind and compassionate, if sex was what a person wanted...shrug what was the big deal? She had a very confused view of what a healthy relationship was all about. What does this have to do with vpw? That is how I view some of the people vpw took advantage of...even the ones that were flattered and willing....people in need of love, in need of healing, desiring to be pleasing so that people will find them of worth. We know that in ex`s account, he took advantage of the fact that she had been sexually abused as a child..that he tried all kinds of manipulation, that it was Godly, that he could heal her, that all things were lawfull...etc...and when that didn`t work, he resorted to drugging. I think that he knew that these women were vulnerable in a way that he could exploit. My point is, the kids that were sexually abused, who were neglected and ignored, the lost children that had to raise themselves...(I am talking guys and girls) were vulnerable and needed help, the love of God extended to them...they came to the ministry hoping that the hurt could be healed...hoping that the promises made when presented with the green card of all answeres pertaining to life and Godliness would fill the hole inside :( ONLY to be exploited yet again by another cunning predator...except THIS time their last best bet...God almighty was the cover that was used to win their trust and obedience. This man above ALL men should have been able to set his sexual proclivities aside and minister healing to these people. Not use them one more time, and throw them away like so much garbage, used and empty. As far as my sweet wonderfull wow sister?? I heard that after a couple of years that she was institutionalized. I don`t know if she ever was able to leave.

Lest we forget the other side of the coin that catcups sister presented.. At 17 yrs old she was thrown off of the wow field and declared posessed by vpw himself when she refused to have sex with him. She was villified to her family when they inquired why their vivacious energetic daughter was reduced to near catatonic state, unable to discuss what had happened. Do you guys remember the poster *Better Noow* who refused a threesom with lcm and was physically escorted off the grounds booted from the corpes and by the time she returned to her home state, everyone she knew had been told she was posessed and to stay away? What about Dot whom TRIED to comfront the sex and was declared posessed to the whole state. She took it all the way to the top, vp himself...and SHE the one who was trying to fix things was branded the trouble maker. It is no different now. You guys are villifying the people who were abused, the people who are finally speaking up about it instead of being properly disgusted by the perverted sexual predators that took advantage of naieve young people....people who just wanted to be a blessing and of service of God.

Nero, you did just fine. The *just get over it crowd* are simply parroting what we were taught in twi. I was talking with someone last night, and was reminded how we were taught to be such cold heartless jerks. We were taught that emotions were 5 senses, things that could trick us into ignoring God. Emotions could be a tool of satan to lure us away. To display anything other than a carefully neutral demeanor or a simpering smile was viewed with dissaproval. It must have been terribly difficult for a child. We had this programed into us to the point that people became uncomfortable with emotions period...any display, was threatening ... I remember too well.....your grandpa died...oh well ...your dog died last week...oh well that is in the past...why are you dwelling on it...husband dropped you to the floor in a drunken rage, forgive him, it`s in the past....why would you not move on??? The incidents given above all happened in the ensuing years AFTER leaving twi. I think that expression of rightious anger over the mistreatment....Grief over the abuses coming to light...the shame of finding out that we were decieved... All of these emotions can make people uncomfortable. I seriously doubt some folks know why they get so irritated with posters who are finally unplugging the stopper on the emotions that we bottled up for decades. Being allowed to feel, to express ones self is just one of those areas that so many of us need healing in, post twi.

P.S. This post was edited to draw attention to what I told Paw in another post (which is not intended to be viewed by the general populace. Funny I thought if some of the members of Greasespot had shown me a little common courtesy, then perhaps I wouldn't be where I am today. Of course, I'm sure you and many others won't see it that way. Apparently you were/are mistaken.

Welcome Nicole :) Most of us were in twi for the right reasons. We tried to make the world a better place, the only way we knew how.

A little common courtesy is all that is necessary Larry.

Hey, I`ve been moderated shrug...I know others who have...most of us decide to accept responsibility that what we did was unacceptable in this community and decide to behave ourselves. No hard feelings. I was never treated with anything other than respect. This is PAW`s place...we play by HIS rules, which by the way are extremely simple...and everybody gets a voice. Instead of finding fault with him and this site...why not attempt to do what it takes to be a benefit rather than creating a problem?

Bu tt ugly was adopted by my dear friend Judy. He is now known as petey. He had a terrible infestation of heartworms, and she paid a lot of money to have him treated and neutered. He lives inside, sleeps with his new Mom and is her dearest friend :) We had to put poor kirby to sleep this week when she slipped a disk in her back. We lost Luke last spring to tick fever :(

Should I do it??? Yeah I haven`t for a while :) 24 cats and kittens....down to just three dogs A harlequin great dane *xena* a rescued shepherd *mama dog* a mini rat terrier *winnie the pooche* *Rosey* the wonder but extremely vulgar cockatoo....a ferret...a huge snapping turtle named *fluffy* tanks full of various fish small water turtles...13 horses....a lepard skinned gecko ..a huge iguana...2 cockatiels...that`s all I can think of at the moment...lol

Well being the mother of a 19 yr old and a 16, nearly 17 yr old teenaged girls....BOTH would be too young to be seduced or coerced or drugged and raped by a creepy old man posing as a minister of God. The very idea of some bastard acting as a grandfather figure, loving and kind ...winning their trust as a minister teaching them the bible and then having sex with them is abhorant. Now that I am a parent, I understand the vulnerability of these sweet girls, of their willingness to trust, their desire to please. It is just vulgar and disgusting to think of either of these sweet children to be betrayed and used by that trash...and yet I know that my sweet sisters in Christ were that very age when they were the victims of these predators :( Many have spent the ensuing decades trying to pick up the pieces in the aftermath of that betrayal. Oldies and John, you are both WAY off base on this one. Try for some compassion and understanding of what these vulnerable young ladies went through...how cruel the betrayal was. Please?

Oldies, did it occur to you that maybe you are simply mistaken? That you might possibly have been taught wrong? Judging by the reactions of every poster here, would not it be a possibility to consider? Rather than trying to demonize everyone who is offended by this statement....could you try instead to understand how wrong and harmfull this thought process, and wierwilles actions were to our brothers and sisters in Christ? Please, look at the path of pain and destruction that such thinking and actions has left in it`s wake....decades after the actions occured. Rather than blaming the women for being weak, or easy, or wanting it, can you for a miniute feel compassion, can you try to consider the very real damage and pain that such thinking caused? Could it be a possibility that this was not God sanctioned, but the rationalizations of a very selfish man for excusing his perversions? This isn`t about arguing, or winning, or who can smack down the other poster with the meanest insult.

awww mommies gotta come and help little johnnieiam out of the hole he dug himself into.. If he hadn`t advocated it`s necessity from time to time in the first place, he wouldn`t be getting a hard time about it now.

Oldies, you cannot spout something THAT revolting and not have reactions. Are you suprised? Did you really expect that anybody would agree with you on this? It is an affront to all of the decent men that I known and met in my life time. The way you said it...either everyone is like you or they are gay. That would place my husband, my boys, our male friends, in the *gay* catagory....it just isn`t true.

I know the physical reactions I saw on their faces when I asked them this question oldies. I know that they looked revolted. I can only go by what they tell me. I repeat, could this be an assumption on your part based on affiliation with an unhealthy group? How young IS young in the fantasies oldies? 19 18 16? Wierwille didn`t mind as young as 17 yr old virgins....according to catcup`s account. It wasn`t healthy oldies, it was harmfull to the girls that he raped/seduced Being the mother of teenagers of both sexes, I think I kind of have a feel for what is the norm.

Where do you get this?? I have a husband and sons, I have male friends...I have yet to see ANY of them behave in the way you described....I have teenaged daughters that our male friends and neighbors don`t lear at and persue in that way.....in short I don`t know anybody who believes that this what you said is the case or views this as acceptable behavior.... In all honesty, I ask....Are you very sure that this ideology isn`t left over propaganda from twi days that was promoted by a dirty old man who wanted people to BELIEVE that this was normal or acceptable behavior?

I do not believe this. I think that is disturbing that you believe that this is the norm :(

shiver

I don`t know...I have spent many years deeply angry with my husband for marrying, and then deciding not to love me in a way where I feel cherished....for in doing so, he has not only denied me his love, but access to love from anybody else. All I can do is sadly shake my head at the loss and waste. Lately, I see more effort. I see him reading and searching for ways to improve....who knows, maybe that is what love is...trying to change ones self even when they don`t think that they have a problem. I look back over the last 21 years and see how far that we have come together, I rejoice in the wonderfull children that we have raised together, at our personal accompishments...and have to feel that in spite of the difficulties, it has been a pretty good life after all.

Exactly Dooj... I cannot imagine believing this was either normal or even remotely acceptible. For 7 years these guys have been calling the women who came forth liars, and when too many came forth to deny, then they were blamed, their reputations, their motives, their intelligence questioned....now it is finally out....wierwille really didn`t do anything all that bad...the error is in OUR understanding when we make a big deal out of it. They knew all along what he did, they just didn`t care.

Good points Danny, the women are just whining to damned much...just need someone to smack their irritating mosquito selves to shut em up. Too bad our spouses don`t do a better job of keeping us in line, darn em (yeah he really said that about mine) Wierwille was just fine...it`s us ditzy women that cannot handle anything as normal and natural as a drugging, raping, fornicating, adulterous minister...I mean gee whiz what`s NOT to like about the fellow?

Not evil noooo. According to galatians though...enough sexual desire to be lascivious, a fornicator and adulterer, not to mention drugging and raping unwilling young victims is something that someone who is of the flesh and has no inheritance in the kingdom of God does....NOT a man of the spirit. God`s words, not mine.... Frankly, I don`t trust a man of the flesh concerning spiritual matters...period. EVEN God forbid the scriptures didn`t soundly condemn such behavior....the simple fact of how badly those actions hurt people...the long lasting harmfull impact..... would wake up the most calloused to realise that it was a really really bad thing to do to people. I have to wonder if the guys defending this stuff...were this cruel before twi, or was it association with the group and it`s dogma that developed the callouses on your hearts? I have to think it isn`t just exposure to twi doctrine because I have met so many decent and honorable men that didn`t take this rout.

Good point Wolf.

Thanks wolf, I think that you are absolutely right. I think that definately is part of what has offended me. She has been carefully neutral. Her stories have always been good overcoming evil, not a lot of swearing or sex or anything that would be offensive to parents, nothing that hs to be explained to the kiddoes. Just good wholesom fun for the kiddos... Now, to me the innocence has been destroyed by bringing it into the political social correctness arena.