rascal

Everything is viewed as a feed into why we need pfal.

Sounds wonderfull :) I have enjoyed her teachings whenever I slow down long enough to listen.

As far as pi `s following us all around? I don`t understand this statement. The only point that I was making is that if in studying scripture, you are still acting like a man of the flesh, not manifesting fruit of the spirit....then I`d say that you are missing the mark somewhere and all of the study, all of the knowledge aquired, is along the same lines as simply a tinkling cymbal...something that maybe sounds good, but worthless....and worse because one is arrogant because of the knowledge, one might never understand the real heart behind the book :( Love God and Love your neighbor.

Exactly Guys. Reading/studying the *word* became the measuring stick by which we gauged ones spirituality, second only to how many people or how much money they brought in. I personally think that it made us so complacent in our arrogance, that we ignored the fruit that was (according to scripture) the REAL indication given by Jesus to recognise one another. In some cases, as evidenced by our wicked leaders, I think that bible study took the place of actual living in the spirit. I didn`t say there was anything wrong with reading scriptures....just that it doesn`t impress me as making one spiritual. I think that our experience with the scholars in twi bears that out.

I like and respect Joyce Meyers. I have only heard a few teachings, but they resonated with me. I know that she has had some adversity in her life. I think that is maybe why people can identify with her. She seems pretty straight forward and honest to me.

Amen Garden. My friends were devestated when thrown out of the ministry. Every one that they knew considered them the scum of the earth, loathsome despicable. One gal`s innie family has children that their aunt and grandmother have never met because of fear from devil spirit contamniation. So many many times *general spiritual suspiscion* was used to assault people whom a believer just personally didn`t like. It was a horrible thing, if it truly operated as taught, no doubt we`d a all seen how spiritually depraved so many of our leaders were.

A freaken MEN Belle, Y`all are wonderfull even in spite of the garbage inflicted :)

Better to focus on the evidence at hand than to ignore and pretend that it just doesn`t exist because it might prove detrimental to ones pet theories :) Thats called living in DENIAL!

Why??? Because we were taught wrong by a wolf who wished to remain undetected amongst God`s sheep would be my best guess.

discerning of unmade beds...lmao thanks hiway :) ...and sock drawers and fridge tops. It amazes me how truly *out of order* my home is...my goodness...and I have yet to operate the wholesale cruelty and criminal behavior by our oh so physicals in perfect order = spiritual giant leaders in twi. Seriously, I can`t help you cinderpelt. I know that two of my friends were thrown out as homos...one was married with many children, one married and had several...it was so absolutely dumb...but so terribly hurtfull. It`d be my observation that discerning of spirits, if indeed is available, certainly couldn`t be operated like we were taught in twi...or we`d a sure recognised how many of our illustrious leaders were courting a few themselves. It was just another tool to hurt people who didn`t bow down and kiss leaderships arse.

Well yeah Burford, (and welcome to greasespot by the way :) ) agreed. The way it was taught to us in twi.....studying scripture = spiritual big shot, that I think is wrong. What is scary is that a lot of people still operate under this premiss....the phrase *ever searching, but never coming unto a knowledge of God* comes to mind. We think that we are born again, we think that we are hot shot christians....because of our time studying.....it`s like you said...an *ego* thing. Yet, the fruit in our lives, in that of our leaders many times is not that of some one who is of the spirit....we don`t manifest the characteristics that Jesus said would identify us to one another. Do we examine our lives as to why? No, our leaders just came up with excuses of why that isn`t applicable to todays situation....all things being lawfull you know?? I just wonder how many of us will one day be told to *depart for I knew you not* .... :(

To use such venom to decry the venom in others was pretty darned funny Out There :)

OK, well that is your opinion, everyone has them, I suppose that maybe my pov may offend or incense you, as well. I personally think that you lack in understanding of how God works in people to heal after being victimized and abused. I am at a loss to understand your rancor for the people who were betrayed, used and hurt by people that claimed to be God`s representatives....people who stole, destroyed and even killed in his name?? As far as reading scripture??? What good does THAT do without the love of God in your heart?? As far as I am conerned the obsessive constant reading of the bible....That isn`t how I measure spirituality....some of the most vilely evil people whom I have ever met, were avid bible fans, read it, taught it, wore their studies like a mantle....and yet were using it as a weapon, a tool of punishment to heartlessly destroy the lives of those whom had turned to them as ministers. Scriptural mastery means exactly SQUAT as far as whether you are a man of the spirit or of the flesh .... gosh we all saw that in twi. Actually, it has been my experience that the bible is more of a means to an end. An introduction to God, firstly, and a history book about how he interacted with a particular peaple during a particular time period secondly. Once I get that ...understand my responsibility....*Love God and love your neighbor* right??? Well then that *word is replaced with a personal relationship in which God can work in me to will and to do of his good pleasure....shrug How many times do I need to read the same stuff over and over? It isn`t like I am going to forget what I am supposed to do. Now sure, I occasionally will re read some scripture, but it is kind of like opening a favorite child hood story book. Something that I enjoy, but certainly not a requirement for my daily walk after nearly 30 years of living it. So go ahead, read your scriptures, smugly pat yourself on the back as some sort of superior christian that is so much more spiritual than the average greasespotter....far from offending me, or incensing me to anger, or even God forbid helping me, with your rightious finger of judgement pointing, I just feel bad for you personally friend :(

I had a twig dog that traveled with me all through my twi years. She was the one thing they didn`t talk me out of permanently. One of my favorite memories was when we lived in a way home. My TC roomie was eating and tormenting her. She had the dog sit and was excitedly brandishing a hard boiled egg under the dogs nose and yanking it away, acting like she was going to give it to her and then snatch again laughing and hummining in a sing song way ahh ha ha ha haaa haaa..naa hnahh...and just laughing uproariously while my patient pooch looked at her intently. Finally after a bit more of the torment and one last passs under my mindy`s nose, the girl shoved the entire egg in her mouth. My dog never moved a hair....but all of a sudden, the girl choked, the entire egg soared up in the air in a perfect trajectory that carried it to mindy...all my dog had to do was open her mouth and snap her jaws shut on her treat. The tc stood there in open mouth shock, and I finally found my voice and said.... *don`t tell ME that dog`s can`t operate the power of believing* lmao....

Vickles!!! How awsomely COOL! Congratulations :)

I guess that you need to see yourself through OUR eyes then friend. To us you were a hero. Sneaking behind enemy lines, a thorn in twi`s side, driving them crazy trying to find the mole. Since then you have been a clear strong voice of reason here at the cafe. A friend and aly to those being bullied, a shoulder to cry on when things got tough....leading the cheering over our accomplishments. God alone knows the magnitude of your impact on the lives of those struggling in twi and with their post twi issues. To borrow Z`s phrase ...*girl YOU so totally ROCK! * :) You know?? You never DID tell us how they caught you...What they did to you...what they said to you...I have always wanted to hear about that part of the story.

Larry, the only thing I see from you is your bizarr need to go from thread to thread defecating on any and all here. I don`t understand you, I don`t see anything of benefit to your posts....as far as I can see...just a troubler maker pure and simple. In short, you offend me. You don`t contribute, you don`t help anybody, you don`t do much of anything but relentlessly search for ways to tear people, and derail threads .. and quite frankly??? I honest to GOD don`t give a tinkers damn whether you ever believe me or not. I am not, nor have I ever been here to persuade you. I told you a long time ago, when you DID infer that I was a liar...or spreading misinformation, or unable to prove my facts...that you were now in possession of the information, that it was now up to you what you did with it. I have no need to change your mind, nor to discourse with you on any issue, because I have no respect for you period.

((((Potato))) O am so sorry that you had to endure that. The few that I were subjected to were terrifying. *Soul crushing* was an appropriate way to describe it. I didn`t even do anything wrong....but was made to believe that I was the worst scum on the earth. Like I said, the first one was so bad, that I almost drove myself off a bridge in order to rid the world of my horrible presence, and afraid that I would infect another believer with the evil that I was at a loss to explain how I had become....grrr The second one frightened me so badly, that I never dared stir a toe without triple checking with leadership first. How incredibly cruel, that these people would do this in the name of God...convincing us that God believed this of us :(

Lol, I have said more than once that my messy house is a statement of rebellion after so many years of being so anal about stupid little details. My poor husband who is a neat freak anyway, has moved his *space* out to the moble home where no kids can mess it up, where he can analy dust and vaccume and keep everything decent and in order. It is peacefull and quiet, and BOOOORING!!! I tell him *the day that our house is perfectly clean, that everything is decent and in order, and nothing has been broken by a stray ball, or mis aimed pillow .... will be a sad and lonely day, because it will mean that our dear children have grown and gone*. I intend to enjoy every minute with them in art classes and karate classes and theatre musicals, and horse back riding or just hunting cray fish in the creek. I would rather sit around a bon fire in the evening toasting marshmellows than obsessively wiping down the top of my fridge that nobody ever sees anyway...lol... I spent way too many years worrying about the stupid stuff.

Yeah Skyrider, Wierwille and LCM could have never succeded had they not had the Good Guys to hide behind...and I count myself, and most of us here in that catagory of selfless duolos If VPW had simply jumped out in the beginning and said *BOO! I am a drunken, lascivious, perverted old man who is a serial adulterer and rapist. You will have to protect your teenaged daughters from me and those I have taught, You will will suffer deprivation, loss of family and friends, broken marriages, possibly be required to abort your inconvenient babies, cast your living children to the streets at the capricious whims of your leaders...you will devote your time, your resources, your youth for a decade or more... when you are tired of the bullying, degradation, and humiliation....when every last ounce of usefullness is wrung out of you, and you are exhausted as a resource......you will then be cast aside like so much garbage* Well I guess that we would have politely declined. Unfortunately..none of that info was in the fine print when we signed the green cards :(

Hmmmm or if you those decisions were a a result of deception, manipulation, coersion, or out and out lies perpetrated on us by those whom we trusted?? It isn`t about not taking responsibility, believe me, most of us were made to believe that we were the scum of the earth before departing twi...we accepted that, that our believing was faulty, our commitment was faulty, our spirituality was lacking, our discernment not sharp enough.... It isn`t about slamming twi, but learning to think and process information in a healthy way, learning how to act post twi in an unscripted world. There is a lot of healing and recovery necessary after spending decades with a group where we so tightly controlled our thoughts, bottled up our emotions, put aside our desires, ignored our pain and grief. There is much to unravel, much to examine, much to understand. That is what I love about grease spot.

Belle, I think that God led you out one step at a time. Maybe it was time, maybe he knew that your loyalty to your husband and marriage would keep you imprisoned in twi for the rest of your life. Maybe it was necessary to be caught and thrown out, in order for you to be free. I know that I would have never left. My husband quit, and that meant as the wife, I was spiritually suspect. Fortunately, I didn`t have anybody counceling me to divorce at the time, or I`d a done it..I was told that I had to obey my spouse right or wrong...Oh how I detested him at the time.... My opinion is that God did what he had to to get us out of there. Oh how i wish that I had been smary enough to see the crap, that I had had a chance to play under cover believer like you did. I don`t see where you were not couragious.

Exactly Groucho. Having *got over it* doesn`t mean that I don`t get outraged when reading of new abuses, does not mean I don`t grieve when I read of more hurt caused, lives lost. I think many times the people that demand forgive and forget are simply uncomfortable hearing about this stuff and are not wanting to come to grips with the issues of the ministry. I think some times that the bible verses are simply an excuse to ignore that which one doesn`t want to hear and address.

Your welcome ex, I didn`t think anybody bothered to read it or care. Oldies said that maybe wierwille gave the girls drugs to loosen em up cause they were too up tight dontcha know? That is why people are so creeped out.

The very sad part is that rather than him or his understanding, Oldies has been slyly implying for years that it is the people coming forward that have something wrong with them....ie they are liars or exaggerators, or misunderstood, or making a mountain out of a mole hill....wanted..asked for deserved what they got...etc Usually he could then rally around a few buddies to slam and discredit the people who were trying to share...untill they bullied folks into silence.