rascal

Could be Wth, but I suppose that you would have to point them out to me, as I am at a loss as to what you would be referring to. Does it embarrass you that vpw was a rapist? That he prayed on vulnerable teenaged girls? That families were destroyed? That lives were lost?? Is that why you are so hatefull to the people who meerely TALK about what he did? Why not be offended by HIS actions?? I`m with waysider...he was a despicable man and a pitifull excuse for a human being...get OVER it!

Sounds like quite a bit of staining at gnats to me John. I think the words are straight forward and accurate as they stand, I am sorry that they appear to say that which you do not wish to believe. To me these verses appear to be a barometer to deduce whether one is of the flesh or of the spirit plain and simple. What *no inheritence in the kingdom of God* means...I don`t know. I just know that it says that those who did what vpw did...will have none.....I also know that in other scriptures that describe what he did, we are told to stay away from guys like that. I prefer to believe what the scriptures say concerning a man who would rape my sister in christ and destroy my brothers, our families, and our children...shrug Contrary to your assumption, yes... I have personally met the man. I have met the people whom were negatively impacted by his action. My own life was negatively impacted by his doctrine and his ministry. Your summation of my life, and my freedom today is rediculous. You see exactly what you want to see John, (unless you are just being intentionally dishonest) whether it be in me, my life, my motives, not to mention vpw and twi. In each of the situations you listed, your impression is mistaken.

Bumpy, why can you not ask me these questions in a polite, respectful way? Why the mockery and derision? Does that some how make you right? More spiritual? I`ll answere you, not a problem, you assumption that my utter and complete contempt of the man is due to something that he personally did to me is mistaken. My outrage is based on the evil that he perpetrated on our brothers and our sisters, the evil that his doctrine permitted and encouraged that resulted in the destruction of our lives, the dismanteling of our families and the death of our children....all accomplished in the name of God. Here is what galations sais.... Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Here is my personal grievance against the *ol doc* according to galatians... Lessee now sexaul immorality I`d say the drugging and rape of our trusting teenaged sisters falls under that category...umm next...moral impurity??? The stalking and seduction of teenaged girls based on their history of child hood sexual abuse and promising to heal them with sex, would fall into THAT category..... promiscuity??? ...Any question??? Oh yeah....idolotry I?? sorcery?? I don`t know...hatreds...yeah I heard of some of his hatred...strife?/ Ever been on the recieving end of one of his face meltings?? I`d have to say yes....jealousy...damned right, of anyone who showed any ability that superceded his own....out bursts of anger?? are you kidding?? Big check mark there....selfish ambitions...yup, dissensions, all the way back to the beginning of his days as a minister, factions...dunno bout that one, envy> yeah, drunkenness...his indulgiance in alcohol was legendary, carousing? anything similar, what do you think the party bus would fall under??? Galatians finishes with......*Those that practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God* Seems pretty cut and dry to me, no matter HOW you feel about vpw.

Uhhh me demonize ?? Wierwilles evil actions stand all by themselves friend. Galatians condemns them as those of someone of the flesh. Where do you see ME in any part of this equation? I didn`t make vp do what he did. I didn`t write galatians. Why are YOU demonizing and condemning me for what vpw did and the scriptures condemn?

I don`t know what on earth you are talking about . The verses are pretty clear if you read them. French and oral stuff aren`t mentioned per say. Like I said, there are plenty of ready made excuses to dismiss the significance of the 5th chapter. I don`t know, maybe we do it because we don`t like what it might say or indicate about ourselves.

The words are pretty clear and concise. I am sorry that contradicts what you personally wish to believe. Believe me, I understand that Galatians 5 has to be ignored entirely, in order for vpw to have any credibility or his doctrine to be reliable. How convenient in order to dismiss the evil that he did in his life time :( I am sorry, but it states clearly and simply ....the people who do what wierwille did are of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of God pure and simple. People who are of the spirit behave in an entirely different manner... Jesus said that fruit of the spirit was how we would recognise one another. Wierwille fails the test.

Common sense not to mention SCRIPTURES warn us not to Mike. Wierwille`s fruit of the flesh, according to galatians completely eliminates any and all credibility friend. Ugh...how did yet ANOTHER interesting thread get derailed into an info mercial for wierwille and pfal ?

Who says he was commissioned by God??? WHO??? You have a man of the flesh writing about spiritual matters...what he wrote, what he spoke is completely unreliable friend. I understand you wanting to steer folks clear of scriptures and replace them with wierwilles classes, because according to scriptures his actions and life style brand him as a false prophet, somebody to steer clear of AND as having NO inheritance in the kingdom of God. You are promoting something that is down right ungodly Mike.

Bull sh it john *we* can and does refer to those of us whom it applied to...stop cramming your stupid foot into somebody elses shoe and then b itching when it doesn`t fit. I don`t believe that it was a genuine ministry either, John. Looking at the fruit, applying the measuring stick given to us in the scriptures....I`d have to say that it was a clever counterfeit. Scripturally, when one is confronted with adultery fornication, lasciviousness, not to mention familys broken and seperated, lives destroyed, rape and death....it is not the atributes of a Godly ministry. We are warned repeatedly in the scritpures to avoid folks who do these these things. As far as my relationship with God before twi? I don`t know, if it had been of any account, I guess that I would have been steered clear of such a destructive cult :( That is one of those things that I will never understand.

It isn`t that we missed it mike, but rather you attempting to see something that was never really there in the first place. You are claiming that a man of the flesh (theres that pesky galatians again) declared his own words to be God`s word ...something that vpw himself was never crazy enough to do in actual life. I think the man was completely reprehensible, but even I won`t lay this one at his feet.

John, My statement stands, I don`t understand your rancor, nor your attempts to discredit it by using unrelated posts. I personally don`t understand your problem with galatians either ...shrug.

Sure we do. Jesus said the two great commandments were to *love God and love your neighbor*. That is an excellent place to start :) The way we are told to seperate the genuine from the counterfeit was obvious as well, Jesus said by our fruits that we would know one another. Here`s a hint ....mastering the written word was NOT given as one of the fruit that identified the genuine believer :)

In other words....Pssst Mike, look a little closer buddy .... that ain`t a pony your riding.

If pfal is not God breathed nothing is?? That is insane and very sad mike. God doesn`t live in those documents....he is alive in US to will and to do of his good pleasure. Waysider, I have in my possession an honest to God live palomino pony....no kidding :) As the kid who desperately wanted a pony all of her life....I get this parable in a physical as well as an alagorical (sp?) understanding. Mike, once one becomes aquainted with the genuine, the illusion, or fake no longer holds any desire. Pfal, was a poor substitute.

Mike, you haven`t shown anybody anything other than an illusion. Waysiders analogy was perfect.

Glad that I took it? I don`t think so....no. I was watching a show about *gateway drugs* How pot, in and of itself seemed pretty innocuous...fun, made life and problems seem a little easier to cope with, but that in many cases, it reduced ones inhibitions to where they would end up moving on to stronger more destructive drugs. It struck me how similar this seemed to my twi experience. I think pfal was that way....in and of itself, it seemed fairly harmless, even helpfull. Yet, buried within it were the kernels of teachings that would later germinate into whole sale destruction. Without first taking pfal, the classes, teachings, and programs that followed allowing the mogs to such wholesale destruction wouldn`t have been tolerated. PFAL laid the groundwork, dulled our internal alarms, by convincing us that this was a legitimate Christian minister, with a legitimate ministry. It wasn`t untill years later after one had lost their friends , family, education, careers, suffered horrific abuse that we finally come to and try to figure out where it all went so wrong. The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God... We had to start all over. Sometimes greasespot feels like we are a bunch of recovering addicts, trying to understand, trying to make sense of it all, trying to learn so that it never happens again.

Amen Cinder! That is what is so scary about twi involvement...the tendency even years after leaving to substitute knowledge, keys, principles, study for a relationship with him :( I think that is why we have such a tough time fitting in anywhere after we leave.

Dunno, it seems pretty darned silly to give credence to advice about driving spirits out when in hind sight we find out that the ones giving the info were chock a block filled with evil themselves. Seeing as the sources of the information were untrustworthey......the cartoons are pretty meaningless.

Penworks, what you described, I believe taught us to tune out not only our own judgement, our own feelings, our own insights and intuitions, but also the very voice of God...that still small voice inside....all of these things were identified and labeled as Satan trying to trick us and draw us away.. How many times did we fiercely shut those things down because they contradicted what we were being required to do by twi??

Nero, I don`t think that she is much of a friend to you. It sounds like you are willing to be a friend anyway. I have a long time friend. She is good as gold. I love her dearly, but she is the most miserable, complaining, bitter, angry person on the planet. I was having dinner with her one night when some friends of mine showed up and decided to join us. They remarked afterwards, how unbelievably miserable she was, and was she always that way..and how could I stand to b around her? I had to think about it...but I thought well...THAT is what a real friend does. I try to be supportive and look past the misery to see the genuine kindness and good in her. It is established that your twi friend, is a lousy friend. Only you know if you want to be a friend to her. If it is of benefit or detriment to you. I would try to think of her as incapacitated though, emotionally, she just can`t be right with the teaching and conditioning that she has had...her view point will always be some what limited. Who knows though, maybe your patient steadfast kindness will be the light that leads her to freedom one day.

((((Ex)))) :(

Wow, that makes a lot of sense. It always creeped me out that the criteria for the man (can`t remember his name) leading him to speaking in tongues, the thing that convinced vp to trust him.... was to be unspeakably rude to his wife in front of vp. I know that our marriage has been scarred by the doctrine taught. I don`t put up with it any more, and some how in some indefinable way....that makes me less of a woman, unspiritual, unworthey of respect.

(((Nero))) I am so sorry that you are having to deal with this. My friends Mom suffered from alzheimers for years. She was completely oblivious to everyone and everything that she had ever known....it was so easy to write her off as already gone. Every once in a great while though, her Mom would become lucid, and be the same woman before the affliction set in. That was a whole lot tougher to deal with than just consoling ones self with...oh well they aren`t in there anyway :( We had a young man that nearly died in a terrible accident. His brain was severely damaged. Against all odds he survived...he had to relearn everything, eating swallowing, talking, walking....His Mom said that he was a very different young man....he was different...he would never be the same, nor have the mental capacity or abilities he once possessed.....but yet in some indefinable way...intrinsically, deep inside, he was still cory Maybe family members want to write incapacitated relatives off because it is easier than dealing with the reality of the situation.

AMEN Dooj!! Thing is the mindset continued for many years after leaving as well :(

I remember *obey or die* :( It is what kept me in line for so many years.