rascal

Hmmmm The spaghetti analogy is a pretty good one. I have to say that for me, I was so confused, I had to just throw the whole mess in the trash and start all over again with a fresh clean plate. I then added one noodle at a time, starting with deciding whether or not to believe that there even was a God....followed by if there was a God, what was true about him....what could I trust....then adding the things that I felt were safe to believe....Love God and love your neighbor was the beginning.... In time I feel that I have ended up with a wholesome palatable dish. There is just the right amount of sauce, seasoned just the way to suit me, a little melted cheddar cheese topping...etc :) Either method utilized....if you trace each noodle evaluating the nutritional value, keeping what is good and discarding that which is unpalatable.... or starting all over fresh...each is time consuming, each requires patience ...I think that with God`s help, in the end you end up with a delicious wholesome meal.

Gosh...I am sorry ((((seth)))

People did commit suicide after being kicked out of programs, others almost did. The woman who declared me posessed, I think on hind sight was just plain miserable and mean and wanted to take it out on somebody because she hadn`t got the assignment that she was believing God for...What ever reason they did it for.... it was devastating to the person denounced when they didn`t know how or why they had engendered the leaders disgust and wrath....shrug

Gosh Nero, that is tough. We all know what opportunistic buggers twi members can be. They will use this or any chance to drag someone back ...They usually will find ways to blame this disaster on folks lack of faithfulness...etc. Gosh remember Donna Mart!indales venomous rant about the daughter dying on that air plane crash because her folks left twi??? Your Mom is so vulnerable about now...she so wants to believe for a miracle...twi shows up and says ohhh it`s so easy...just do A + B = C If she doesn`t agree ...she no doubt will be made to feel responsible for the consequences. No matter what the outcome for your Dad..they win My heart just aches for her and you guys. I don`t know what can be done to fight this....

I was HOPING that someone would post that here. It truly is a gem :) Well said Edi!

Well said Nero. Your post reminds me of the account in the bible about the father who had two sons....he told the boys to do something.... One boy said no and left...he ended up going back later and doing the job that his father wanted. The other boy told his dad... yeah, he`d do it, but then blew him off and didn`t do the job. Jesus then asked...which one did his fathers will? You are correct, ARE a valuable human being :)

I was a wow in 79/80 as well livinit. I remember richard. We had some great limb days at national parks that year. It was beautifull.

Blech that is truly appalling. Too bad we can`t post links to jjuedes site and greasespot, maybe advertise karl`s book :)

Thanks Eyes ... I may be old and a little slow...but I CAN be taught ...lol :)

Exactly waysider. These ideas, these practices are still hurting people today. Also...sometimes we ourselves don`t know why we do what we do....some of these ideas we aquired as teenagers and held them throughout our entire adult hood. Behaviors that we never question, beliefs that we have held for so long that it doesn`t occur to us that they might be detrimental to us and others. The onion analogy that has been used is so appropriate. It is my opinion that when we forgive and forget, in the context of twi involvement, we fail to see past the first layer of experiences and beliefs..., and in truth I don`t believe we can move on...not really....I think that it can be stifling. One doesn`t tend to change if one doesn`t see the need. Thank you Eyes, I have now done that. I was of the opinion that I wasn`t afraid of these folks...to put them on ignore was to be a coward...I figured I could handle them, and whatever they said. I didn`t take into account the damage that I was doing. Peace is much better.

I have 15 years of experiences, ideas, desires that were stifled as unworthy or unspiritual. .....so many emotions that were stifled ...the fear of failing God, the terror of face meltings, the shame of constantly falling short in leaderships eyes...the quelling of the still small voice inside by running scripture retemories through your mind to quiet the horror when being required to submit ....so many unanswered questions....Why did they do this to us? Who were they? Why did we let them? How did I get fooled? Where was God? Where is he now? Why didn`t he care? One by one as I examine each of these experiences, as I talk with other people who endured the same experiences....little by little I am finding answers that I can live with...that it wasn`t just me, or a lack of spirituality....As a group we are providing different pieces of the puzzle ...enabeling us all to see the bigger picture. I am finding more and more of the *me* that I lost or hid during those years....and I don`t think that it is just me that experiences that here. In requiring someone to forgive, forget, and move on, folks are denied the opportunity to reclaim some of what was lost. I understand not wanting to hear it...heck my own spouse doesn`t...lol but that is simply how some of us process our experiences, aquire understanding, and grow stronger :)

You know, years ago, I got a job at a pet store that opened in our mall. I was passionate about working there. I loved the animals. I loved matching them up with the right families, I loved selling all of the acutriments that would keep their pet healthy and happy. They kept track of what we sold, and with no effort what so ever, I was always near the top in the nation in sales. I never thought about it, I just believed in what I was doing. Well the franchise was sold and of course now it was necessary to make money sell sell....it didn`t matter if the family was financially able to care for the animal or that the children were too young for a tiny puppy...or a puppy that would be enormous in 6 months and knocking them down....we were given a two page canned sales sheet with a script that we were required to memorize that would make it litterally impossible to walk out of that store without a 500 dollar puppy and 300 dollars worth of supplies. I hated it, I felt dirty, sneaky, I had an agenda and every person who walked in the store was a mark to be deprived of their money. My sales plummeted, and I don`t think that I lasted out the month. That is how it was with pfal. I took it, I was enthusiastic about telling people about this wonderfull bunch of christians, how big God was...I brought all of my friends to twig, I went wow because I loved God and wanted to share him with others.... There wasn`t many twigs or classes I hadn`t dragged someone to with my enthusiasm. It wasn`t too long before I was required to *sell* pfal as an example of my spirituality. There were high pressure motivational techniques to be employed, canned speeches for door to door witnessing, people were to be abandoned if they didn`t buy what we had to sell. Everybody once again became a *mark* someone to talk into the class.... Again, I hated it, I felt dirty, I felt sneaky...I couldn`t just love people any more, everything was geared to sell pfal. It was just awfull, and again I began to fail. I remember vividly when I finally was allowed to go to my first app corpes meeting for the state...finally, I was going to be part of the spiritual elite, I was going to learn how to do great things for God.....I drove 2 1/2 hours keyed to the absolute maximum in excitement...ONLY to arrive, be divided into pairs and dropped off in the city of Birmingham for door to door witnessing. THAT was it...as I mused it over in black gloom on the return trip....I saw it...my life unfolding before me was going to be nothing other than a life time of high pressured sales....that I would never again be allowed to be a normal person, that as with the pet store my superb track record mean t nothing, that every month would start all over again with ever higher pressure to preform that which I loathed :( Something broke inside....where as I had been able to tell the owner of the pet store to shove it and walk out the doors to freedom, my integrity intact....I could not do it to God. I could not give him the finger and walk away....the alternative was going to be a lifetime of high pressure, phoney baloney canned sales. ALways on patrol for a new mark, shaking off anyone who didn`t want what I was selling. I do not think that I have ever felt such bleakness before or since :( Edited to add....In hind sight, I realize that ....even though the animals in the store seemed well cared for and something that people needed....or the bible was being taught and God shared about....I was only valuable to the pet store owners as long as I was making them lots of money. In twi, I was only valuable or spiritual if I was producing as well...in both cases there was never any actual concern for me, or the animals or the scriptures, or the customers, it was all about how much income could be generated, with products and effective sales force.

My daughter and I train horses. While working with them in the arena, anything can happen. Some bite, some kick, some will flat out run you ever if given the chance. You can`t get mad, that is what happens when you train young horses. You can`t hold it against them, that is how they react to certain situations. You patiently encourage them in another direction ....if you are angry, they know it, if you are vindictive and punishing they don`t know why....You just watch them like a hawk to avoid getting hurt and move on. No anger, no malice.....in a sense...you forgive and move on....every session of every day. However IF...one day, you have a family that comes to the arena and greatly admires the pretty buckskin pony that you are training....they see nothing but the stunning color, are dazzled by the graceful movements as he is worked by an experienced rider....nothing will do but they have that pony for little bethany to show.... It would be extremely negligent to sell that pony KNOWING what you do... to that inexperienced family that only sees his good points, while you yourself are well aware that the pony has a propensity to bite, to buck, to kick your head in if given the right chance. Now...I could sell the pony, and MAYBE the little girl wouldn`t get hurt too badly. Of course not...your responsibility would be to steer that family to the old placid dead broke mare, she isn`t pretty and she isn`t flashy, but that is exactly what that little girl needs to ride on. Now, am I being vindictive towards the horse? Am I lacking in forgiveness? Have I failed to move on from the previous mistakes the horse has made in training? No, as the person experienced with that particular horse, I am aware of the danger, I warn the inexperienced child to stay away from the back end, I don`t allow the child near the head unless I have a tight grip on his halter. In short, I protect the innocent, the unwary. It isn`t because I can`t move past it, it isn`t because I hate the horse, it is because that is the responsible thing to do. As angry as the family is over my refusal to sell...I won`t budge. I have had a pony that was so dangerous, no amount of love, attention, or training made any difference....it was so nasty , so willing to attack children , that it needed to be destroyed...pure and simple. I wouldn`t send it to the auction, knowing that her pretty color would sell her, and her small size guaranteed that it would be to a child....that I could pocket my money and never look back..Hey I got my mony...she is somebody elses problem now....To do this knowing that she would be bought for a child ... that the unwary, uninformed family might suffer tragedy was unthinkable. As with the horses, my lack of dismissal of twi`s harmfull actions....it isn`t about being vindictive, it isn`t being mean spirited, it isn`t even mental instability that prevents me from forgiving, forgetting, and moving on. As with the family, it is a sense of integrity, duty, and obligation that motivates, and will continue to inspire me to educate people of the dangers, and warn the unwarey. To do anything else would be negligent. For someone to require that I forgive, forget, and move on in either situation would be irresponsible , unkind, and have possibly tragic consequences. I hope that explains my position better. So, guys who want to, maligne all you wish. Go ahead, make up and assign rediculous motives for my adamant refusal to *forget and move on* all you please ...It is my hope, that derision and harassment will never deter me from what I see as my obligation and responsibility.

I agree Lifted. *Forgive and forget* and *move on* in and of itself is not offensive. Heck, it is required in every day life to survive.... it is employed in friendship, at work, raising teenagers...in marriage, or you just plain don`t make it ... (we have an anniversary on monday so I wax nostalgic I guess) It is when it is used as a club to shut someone up....that it becomes cruel.

Not any more Tom, not ever again I hope. Edi, THAT was profound. I am going to ask my daughter to read your post, as she is dealing with issues with her boy friends creepy family. Thanks for taking the time to share this insight and information, because these are issues I have been frustrated by for years.... I will look for the boundaries book immediately. Your opinion means a great deal to me. Thank you

Thanks Edi, thank you so much, I feel pretty damned foolish right now for falling into that. Your illustration of being screamed at be leadership untill you break down really brings it home for me. I think that you also have a valid point concerning people that would come here for no other reason than to obstruct the good that is happening. I am sorry that I played a part in making this sight argumentative and unpleasant.

I think that forgive and forget, get over it....is a ploy by people who are uncomfortable facing the realities of twi. If one acknowledges the abuse and mistreatment, one must examine the validity of our belief system learned from abusive cruel people. I believe that it is easier to brand the people coming forth with the accounts as liars or exaggerators or just unspiritual people that need to forgive and move on. What is wierd is how that scriptures can be employed to seemingly enforce such meanness:(

Thanks Bramble, I don`t get it. I just don`t understand. I don`t understand the stalking, I don`t understand why my every statement has to be taken out of context and challenged, in an attempt to discredit no matter what the topic at hand. I don`t understand why anyone who supposes themselves to be christian can think it is ok to behave this way... I don`t know why I am so stupid that I keep falling for it, derailing thread after thread. It drives me freakin nuts. I am sorry. Larry and John you are on ignore and see if that helps me to stop being part of the problem.. I don`t know if this thread can be pulled out of the toilet or not. I am truly sorry :( Edited to add....Anger?? You haven`t seen anger from me, complete and utter contempt...yes, anger??? Not at all. Good bye Larry You aren`t worth my time or attention :)

OOOOOOOOOOOOH so now you have a respected source?? That right there is the most rediculous thing that you have said yet. How could you or anybody know anything more than what I personally have written in these forums? What are you NOT mistaken about?? About me? my opinions of you? Unlike you, I don`t GO behind peoples backs friend... What I have to say, I say here in front of everybody. See there is this thing called personal integrity... The deep contempt that I currently hold for you was earned by nobody but yourself buddy.

Larry, your actions no matter how you try to justify yourself are contemptible. You don`t give a damn one way or another what I said to john, it was just your opportunity to stir up trouble. In your certainty, you are entirely mistaken. I am done with your disruption and attempted distractions that appear to be for no other reason than the enormous chip on your shoulder.

Accuser? Don`t make me laugh.....You whine and snivel to the moderators about the person who`s pov you don`t like and ignore the repeated insults of the one who supports your pov. If john was offended by my post them by all means, it was his place to report it. For you to do it because it served your purpose to get a poster you personally dislike into trouble is sneaky, low down and mean. I gave you WAY too much credit Larry.

On THAT we can agree Bump, You have a great evening as well :) I am off to karate class and then the theatre. Some of the kids n I are in our towns production of *High School musical* They need teachers on stage and off. I even have a couple of lines!

Best idea I have heard today :)

Ahhhh sorry I really AM trying to understand...I am reading the words, but I am not getting the point .... Guess I`ll have to just give it up. Sorry Bumpy.

Ok so what did the post that he pasted concerning courtesy have to do with that?