rascal

I understand Jeff, (nice to meet you btw) we were taught to hold onto those *good* things. I found out though, that what I was *holding on to* sometimes was what in reality can holding me back spiritually...shrug. I know that I had to start over from scratch...from square one so to speak in order to eliminate the harmfull teachings and mindsets that I aquired while involved in twi. God had to reteach me everything that was of importance. We started with *Is there a God?* followed by could I handle *Love God and love my neighbor* as a starting point. I needed to be cleansed of the corruption that had infected my thinking.

Innocent lives were ruined...yes. I think that in our youthful innocence and zeal....we were deceived into serving in a group that was not spiritually wholesom.... The good news is....God is there with open arms when we finally see beyond the deception and lies and are able to break free of the bondage that we unwittingly allowed ourselves to be placed under. Proverbs talks about *in vain is the snare set in sight of they prey*....meaning that one has to cleverly camouflage the trap... otherwise the intended victim will flee.... I think that the scriptures were the camouflage that hid the deadly snare of twi.

I remember being taught in twi, that if my husband ever hit me ...it was my fault....that if it ever occured, I should have never pushed him that far. I remember being taught that if he ever committed adultery, it would have been my fault for not being sexy enough, appealing enough, inventive enough to hold his attention. I remember believing this stuff....that it was up to me to be sharp enough to ward this stuff off. If there was alcohol or abuse issues, squandered money issues....it was up to me to love him more, to pray for him more, but other than that I had no say so, no recourse, was not permitted any input. This was taught as standard marriage conduct. This was what I was taught was required of a virtuous woman. I wanted to be a virtuous woman, so I accepted whatever mistreatment was administered by tc, spouse, anyone...meekly and with humility, no matter how unwarranted, how unfair with the determination that I would try my hardest to do better. We were taught this in twi, and it became part of our thinking process, to the point that I never ever questioned it`s validity. One time John, you called me a pig making farting noises and demanded that I return to my husband and family who were required to put up with me. Yeah, later you apologized....kinda....but still maintained it was all my fault, *I* *I* *I* shouldnt` have made YOU so angry.... You have also asked me on occasion, what my husband would do or say if he knew what I posted here....I don`t know if that was a threat, or if you thought that I would be punished or not be allowed.....I just don`t know. This is what is so upsetting about this mind set that we were taught in twi........that when someone loses control...when some one hurts another....when some one does the unthinkable to those whom we have been instructed to love....it is the person they *clock* whether it be physically or verbally...the person hurt ....some how deserved it. The way we were taught in twi, makes any behavior no matter how inapropriate, damaging, or even outright cruel justifiable and acceptable. That is the teaching that allows the false prophets of twi who ravaged lives a free pass. God said love him and love your neighbor....what we were taught in twi, it seems is at complete odds with these instructions. I know that we can find all sorts of ways to justify and excuse what we do, what others do...but if we want to present ourselves as Christians...it is time to examine what we do in light of what God deems appropriate. Otherwise, it seems like we are just wearing the christian label .....like some kind of spiritual knock off...looking like the original, convincing ourselves that we are just as good as the original, at one tenth the investment.....but not the genuine...and not really able to fool anybody familiar with the genuine article.

Well, not when one`s religious beliefs make excuse and justification for outragious or unchristian behavior acceptible.

Bumpy those answeres are way to cynical. I think most of us...at least the people I knew wanted to be their best for God. They had an honest desire to make the world a little better place. Twi comes along and says ..here it is...this is the best...this is what God needs...spiritually mature people to enter the battle. To do anything less...would to be letting God down. There were a lot of us pure in our intentions, that naievely assumed that the ministry leaders were as earnest in theirs to serve God and minister to the body of Christ. Most of us didn`t jnow untill the internet allowed open communication that we found out what creepy perverts the leaders were.

Apology accepted, and I thank you for that. It means a lot . I had noticed a change in your posting, and really appreciated it. I will attempt to set aside my rancor with you as well. As far as your family? In hind sight, I realise now that it was inapropriate to mention then at all. My apologies as well, I certainly didn`t mean to hurt anyone.

No *if* about it...You have and you did call me a liar ...many times Oldies, You have also called me a perpetually whining attention seeking victim as well. Pretty easy to forget how many times you have called names and led the witch hunts unless one was on the recieving end of your cruelty.

Nice post Skyrider. I agree, I was getting ready to graduate from high school, had no prospects for the future. The wow offered me an exciting chance to make a difference in todays world, to be a warrior in the spiritual battle. I didn`t have any guidance at home. My mom was overwhelmed trying to raise the kids that had been dumped off on her when my Dad left...To be part of a new spiritual family, where people were loved, where there was guidance, where people cared for one another...a great wonderfull spiritual family that couldn`t be broken and abandoned like my physical one. It was an irresistable lure to a lonely teenager. The transition was from high school to the adult world. I transferred my need for direction and guidance and love to twi.... Great annalysis Sky. It helps me understand why I was so vulnerable.

Yeah, but John sure as heck isn`t Jesus and we ain`t pharacees....Kind of a stupid comparison. Why should Danny apologize for repeating what John once so proudly proclaimed? You once actually called me a liar for alluding to it, and when it was pasted to prove my point, rather than apologize, you justified it and defended him with more personal attacks against me... the term you and John used *psychotic liar* and among others with lies about me writing viscious pm`s ...that you afterwards didn`t want me to post when I offered in defense of myself....come to mind I doubt she will apologize for calling you a liar when SHE misread what you actually wrote, Sunesis. She never has before when she accused people and found out she was wrong.

I was taught that God honored our obediance to our leader. That of we obeyed the leader that God would bless and prosper us right or wrong because of our heart. The example was given of Jesus telling Peter to walk on the water...as long as peter obeyed, as long as he didn`t look at the five senses...he was a walking on water miracle. As soon as he looked at the circumstances, doubted his leader...he sank like a rock. Did we want to live miracles or sink like rocks? That was the foundation laid for implicit obediance. A wow died that was in our class, it was because Satan was looking to take us out at any hour....it only took leaving the spiritual trap door open, and we would die as well. God`s umbrella of protection stayed over us only as long as we were actively involved in his ministry :( Any thought of leaving was Satan tricking us away from the word.... I was led to understand that were I to leave twi, that I would die sopiritually, to be followed no doubt by my physical death...I trusted these guys because they taught me the scriptures....it never dawned on me that they didn`t have God`s/our best interests at heart.

I guess that I feel like people want us to just shut the eff up because when we tell what really happened in twi, when we talk about the harm caused by vpw and his leaders....., when we talk about the loss .... it diminishes the importance one may feel about ourselves and what we committed our lives to for so many years. It is really tough in our aquired arrogance to consider that we may have been dead wrong...that people suffered and died...while in this group. As long as everybody shuts up...people can still feel like we were God`s spiritual elite, his crack troops, setting the world on fire with the word....etc....we can continue to feel smugly superior to the rest of christians with our knowledge. If on the other hand, we face the damages inflicted, if we consider the implications of leaders conduct...one might have to re evaluate ourselves, the roll we played, who was actually served by our efforts. Not easy, no.... not comfortable, but I believe viatlly important in order to begin to heal, to learn how to walk as a genuine christian full of the love of God, capable of living the two great commandments given by Jesus. It is much easier to close our hearts and ears to the pain that was inflicted by wierwilles bunch....to place the blame on those abused in order to ignore our conscience....to shame into silence any whom would present testimony that would cause one to consider the spiritual implications of those whom could inflict this harm in God`s name :( Personally? I think this behavior is just an extension of the cruelty learned in twi to try to shut people up, to shame people into silence by misused irrelevant bible verses...the trump card that was played so successfully in the past....like that some how puts God`s seal of approval on the heartbreak and destruction endured and that justifies continued ugliness to one another, no matter how outragious.

I am always baffled when a person ISN`T offended by the treachey of twi :(

Oh please George, ..get your scolding wagging finger smiley icon out of my face :) WTH voiced his OPINION of people here, their hearts, their motives, their mental state based on what he has read. I based MY opinion of wth, their heart, their motives, their mental state based on what I have read. We have BOTH posted ou opinions, based on what others chose to share on these boards as to why people would behave in a manner that is simply incomprehensible to us.

Isn`t it COOL though that he brought us all back to square one when we became humble enough to listen? When we stopped believing that WE knew it all? that WE had all of the answeres? We learned to be insufferably arrogant imo, but God was right there waiting for us to be able to hear again to begin work all over again...rebuilding our foundation brick by brick.....No recriminations, no punishment, just a gladness for our return. Thats how I felt anyway. That and so so humble that he would go to so much trouble for me....

cman, I`d bet money that wth was one of those that was doing the using and abusing..and now in order to live with themselves...to avoid coming to grips with the reality of his/her culpability...needs to come up with all kinds of excuses as to why it isn`t a big deal, justifying him/herself as to why it was our faults, why we deserved it. Throw in a few token bible verses and voila....the insane ramblings now have some sort of validity. wth, I`d say that you need to get humble before God and ask his forgiveness for what you did yn his name, and then seek out the forgiveness and make amends to all those that you have harmed.

Understood Nero...I am not objecting to porn per say....It is legal, you can rent it at any video store, purchase magazines ...however...in public anywhere that there are minors apt to see it...it is always covered from view. That is deemed as appropriate. For heavens sake, the boobie bungalo is a local attraction that draws the united ire of the local churches etc...I don`t even have a problem with that as a business that people chose to patronize. It is one thing to chose to view it. It is one thing as a parent to decide what is appropriate for your children to see in regards to their sexual education. It is quite another , to have this presented in a class purported to be about the christian FAMILY...to have porn sandwitched in to a class that was supposed to teach us how to raise a family GOD`S way. Maybe since you weren`t married in twi Nero...you didn`t have the opportunity to see the women and men who used this class and the freedom it appeared to offer in Christ as their chance to force their partners into dark perversion. It is the kind of thing that kind of rung alarm bells as not quite right...but dismissed as a lack of understanding on ones own part....while for others it was the opening needed to indulge in filth and force ones partner to comply by slapping a christian seal of approval. I just know that what appears innocuous on the surface ...in reality of practice was used to indulge and excuse perversion.

Undestood dooj, I have studied drawing the naked body as well....but were you drawing engorged penises, were you drawing people who were participating in the act? Yeah, I know there are stores that make a lot of money selling books magazines and movies...portraying just such things....BUT they are required to rate their store as X... minors are not permitted. Also, when you walk in there...you know what you want... Couple that with the doggy porn that vpw showed the teenagers and their parents at rome city....I think it was pretty sinister....In hind sight, I think that it was an attempt to make perversion acceptible...make it ok for christians to indulge in this stuff and remain untarnished. Waysider, that was nice. It wasn`t your fault...we all did some pretty bizarre things because we were told that was what God wanted :(

Outfield, I think that he was such a pervert by the time he made that class....that he had no idea how offensive and wrong that all was. He kept talking about how beautifully and wonderfully the human body was....and that if we were bothered by watching people having sex...we were just too immature to handle it. It just bothers me that he was so able to put my conscience and good sense to sleep to the point that I would accept that this was normal or acceptible in any way.

((((Potato)))) :( I know that I was bothered because it was all about how to serve the husband, how to be an angel in the kitchen and a devil in bed...that the girls shouldn`t undress in the open, to hide and be secretive to make it sexy....I was struck by how it seemed all about what the women should do for the men....I didn`t hear anything about what the man was suppose to do for the woman, or how to treat her ...etc. I hated that class....it was really embarassing watching all of that porn. I mean we were supposed to think we were so spiritual that we could view all of that stuff with a renewed mind....that it was a beautifull thing to watch....blech...in hind sight, I think that it was programming to be perves. I know that I wasn`t supposed to mind if spouse wanted to watch porn or read dirty magazines....fortunately for us...as newly weds...we found most of that stuff mighty dull. Nero, I was taking it a couple of weeks before I got married...I remember being dismayed and thinking....I shouldda read the fine print ...lol It was scarey thinking that you were going to lose your spiritual connection to God...that everything God did would now be through your husband. Yeah sure you could disobey, but if you did, even if you were right, you would be out of fellowship with God and disaster would befall. It was awfull to realize that your whole spiritual life was in his hands...of he messed up or was out of fellowship, or missed it somewhere on any given day.....no matter how right you were in your walk...your entire family would suffer disaster :( It SUCKED being a married woman in twi.

Amen Highway...well said!

Understood Bulwinkle...I gave a greatly abbreviated version of that incident. That incident was the beginning of an entire weekend where in spite of my childish temper tantrum, in spite of my doubt ..in spite of insisting that if he WAS there, I didn`t want anything to do with him.....God proved his existance beyond a shadow of a doubt...in a way that was unquestionable. Why he would take that time with me...why he would care enough to establish that his presence beyond a shadow of a doubt I don`t know... I just know that at the end of the weekend that I was humbled that he would care enough to prove to me in a way that I could accept that he was indeed there. It has happened to me one other time years before....in both cases I was hurt beyond being able to *hear* or believe.

I got to that point....once during a crisis...I actually said fu ...everything I was ever taught about you is a lie. Instead of lightening bolts sent from heaven to fry me, there was an immediate calm ...I felt a warm chuckle and something inside said...now that we have THAT understood.....how about we start at square one. Immediately my pain and confusion returned....I didn`t know WHAT to believe or who to trust to teach me. The calm and the voice returned...can you handle love God and love your neighbor as a starting point? That made sense, I could handle that. Doctrinal issues, how many crucified trinity or not, dead alive or not. all seemed to assume a much less important roll. I mean who cares as long as what we are doing is along the parameters that Jesus had said were the two great commandments. Does the particulars of what we believe alter that responsibility at all? Anyway, that keeps it simple and manageable for me. Well...anyway...that was the basis that I started with, through different sources, I have rebuilt my belief system..

(((((Tcat)))) How absolutely awsome to see you here :)

Gosh I am a few days late....lol Thank you Pawtucket and patrons for making this such an incredible place.

Well, I am ashamed to say that I bought it all entirely hook line and sinker. I got involved at 17 and believed there was nothing else. They would have had to throw me out, and that probably would have killed me. I believed the teachings enough that when my husband refused active participation...I had to follow and obey him. I hated him for not supporting the ministry. I cried, begged and prayed that he would come back and fight for it. I was so ashamed with his lack of spirituality. Fortunately this was in the days before the ministry counceled people to get divorced if the spouse was unbelieving, or I have no doubt that I would have left him. As it was, I thought God required me to follow his orders no matter how detrimental. For me, I believed it all, that if I left, we would die. It was several years before I was able to stop feeling the dread...waiting for the other shoe to drop. It was horrible because I was out in the world alone with worldly people who were just so far beneith me spiritually.....sigh I never really believed the ministry was very messed up, just that lcm could be a tad focused in one area and not always seeing the bigger picture,...butI STILL believed that he was the man appointed by God and it was my responsibility to support him no matter what. Yeah, I bought the farm lock stck and barrel....my husband dragged me crying and protesting out of that grave.