rascal

Notice the words *hit regularly*....as if once in a while is appropriate and understandible no doubt :( The thing is....the definition of what constitutes *nagging* is questionable....heck, in my marriage...it seemed to escalate in direct relationship to how much the spouse had had to drink :( One time I was knocked to the ground on Christmas eve for asking the spouse to go sit down with the kids who had been waiting for him all day while I prepared him something to eat. Silly me, what a nag....I should have known better. John, it is neveever ok. I teach my son`s that it is never ok...they are physically capable of restraining a woman without harming her, and are expected to do so ...even if she comes after them with a ball bat...you don`t think their sisters don`t ask for a good *clocking* every now and then??? Maybe that is the discipline that they aquired with years of martial arts training...maybe it is because they have been taught how to defuse a situation..maybe they aren`t so occupied with ego, that they can turn around and walk away.....maybe it is because they have learned how to be gentleman of character and morality. Whatever it is...if they were to ever hit a woman (or a man for that matter) in anything other than a life threatening situation...they would go to jail...they would be thrown out of karate school as well as have their membership to the federation yanked, and loose their belts. That is what a person of good character and moral integrity, not to mention a christian gentleman does. p.s. A note in defense of those who personally know us....The above incident related occurred many years ago, when way brain was still on full swing.....this is not the behavior of my spouse today, thank God.

I guess for your own piece of mind then, you ought to leave my rodent self and my 5 yr old way brained argument alone :)

I agree (edited to add about being the depressing party person) Tom Strange....that really WAS a lie straight from the pit of he!! :)

Well then quit doing it Dove :(

Bless your heart Bump, it is a shame that is how you see me and the folks here at this sight. Your perception is extremely limited, I guess. Your lack of appreciation for our company and topic of conversation is absolutely understandable, but gee whiz...that in no way negates our necessity or value. Just what do you bring to the table here besides YOUR constant carping and crititsizim of our conversations? You know, there is this little button called *ignore* if you were to push that....you would never be subjected to my non stop endless babbelling repetition again :)

Well Bumpy, all I can say is once again.... we aren`t here for your personal entertainment. We don`t perform like circus animals on cue. You are pretty silly to deny the benefit and healing that the rest of us recieve from interaction in this place. I certainly have no intention of altering my posting style or content to suit you :)

Eyes....... I never denied what happened was not my fault. What I have always had a problem with is that twi doctrine required wives to submit to abusive husbands.... the abortion of wanted children in order to remain in God`s will and under his umbrella of protection....the casting out into the streets of unruly children....etc We were required to do some pretty awfull things in order to stay in the center of God`s will. I seriously doubt that he was standing by applauding ...saying well done....as we brokenly complied with theses insane orders. Then you have these fruit loops that come along and claim that it never really happened...that you are a liar because they weren`t there.... THAT is what I have a huge problem with.

What a joke..are you freaking kiding me?? Has not the WHOLE point of this discussion been YOU claiming that because you weren`t there and didn`t hear what was taught ...there for the rest of us are liars...and our experiences never happened??? Have you not demonstrated that you are woefully ignorant of what the women were taught and the standard that we were held to?? What YOU owe is an apology for calling people liars when it has been demonstrated that it is indeed you yourself who has been mistaken about what was taught in twi. That would be the classy, (not to mention Christian) thing to do.

You know eyes, this is really hard to think back on and retell in detail...because believe it or not...I adored those people... J-hn was out of town. It was N- who did all of the personal counceling both weekends. There were things shared that I have never repeated to anybody else....things that led me to understand in no uncertain terms that it was not the *sex* that was the sin...but only if I allowed the little *problem* to prevent me from honoring my commitment to God....also that it was not necessarily an uncommon occurance...notable people were named that had found themselves in the same position.....that it was easily remedied..... I have to say that she was compassionate and very very kind. I felt like she was a very good person trying to do a really tough job. You will never ever hear me say a word against those two....The only reason that I finally broke my silence on who taught me this stuff, was dove thinking that he knew and was privy to everything everyone taught in every situation and scenario. As much as I would like to demonize them...to make them the villains who forced me to do the unthinkable.....to make it all their fault so that I can live with myself.......I can`t, I have to be honest and say that I hold no malice towards either of them....they were just holding me to the ministry standard that they themselves had been taught. When I had complied....I was welcomed back onto the wow field, all was forgiven...and I felt that I had been really fortunate for such kindness and the loving reprieve. They treated me with gentle compassion, and never, never allowed me to condemn myself .... What I am VERY angry about is that this was twi doctrine taught ......that this was what God required of us. The doctrine that the fetus was not alive...that it was a paracite untill it took it`s first breath....for the teachings where the leadership were to be obeyed right or wrong....(I later found out that the t-wnsends didn`t believe or enforce that...that came from earlier lc`s on the previous wow field and my home state)...that in signing up to go corpes, I was making an unbreakable, irrevocable vow to God .... the breaking of which would be tantamount to telling a lie...annanias and saphira were brought up. The teachings about a woman losing her fruit being punishable differently than murder...so the fetus wasn`t alive...etc. I am angry with the ministry that proclaimed this doctrine and standard as God`s rules and requirements. I am angry that I was in the position that according to the doctrine, I must chose between God and my child. J-hn and N- were some of the kindest, gentlest, and treated me with the most tender compassion that I experienced in twi. I won`t hear a word against them for simply holding up the ministry standard to the best of their ability. It was a privilege to be a wow in their state.

Lol...you pasted that before I got a chance to edit it lifted....I considered on second thought that it was probably WAY tmi....oh well...now it it pasted up for posterity for all to read :) All laughter aside...it was a long hard haul to salvage our marriage from the teachings of twi. I mean we walked away from twi...but it was another 5 to 10 years before we started tossing out the damaging doctrines. It took a lot of hard work and deciding that nothing we were taught was of much value....We had to start over fresh....

Good point Abby. You brought up another buried memory... I remember I was ALSO told that when we were mad (in pre marriage meeting) at each other....we should just have sex....that we couldn`t let the sun go down on our wrath...etc...yadda yadda....submit...yadda yadda.... Anyway, all I know is that it was translated to ....I was expected to have sex no matter HOW ....ed off I was ....and that would make everything ..ok...to NOT do so was to have a hard heart, to be disobedient....lacking in meekness... I remember being in the middle of a heated argument ...and him deciding THAT was the time.... submitting...hating him...hating God for what I was being required to do...I did it...I completed the act ....but I felt something was being ripped from my soul as I did so. I don`t think it did much for him either, because it only happened the once...lol....marriage advice at it`s finest no doubt. No this probably wasn`t down in the books as *official* twi doctrine. But obey your leader, obey your husband WAS. So anything that the leader suggested, advised, was tantamount to a command...the dulous din`t ask how high when commanded to jump....etc...

Who was backed into a corner and who claimed assumption? You act like you scored some kind of coup, or made some little point. I have yet to see anybody backed into a corner or change their testimony of what they were taught.... Because it was taught by LC`s at womens advances or LC`s at pre marriage counceling...does not in any way negate the validity of my point. It`s like you see things entirely different than they have been written.

Wow Mr. Ham, THAT was scarey to read. It was AWFULL to be a woman in the ministry :( The thing is....I learned to believe their version....that as a woman, I was emotional, therefor untrustworthy...that my husband would have to be constantly on guard to keep me from dragging us off of the truth because of them....that I must never disagree because even if I was right, God wouldn`t bless me because of disobedience. I believed that I was untrustworthey....I believed that any abuse was justified...I believed that the man was better than I was....for no other reason than my gender. It didn`t matter how spiritual, how good, how kind....if you were a woman...you were treated like you were a stupid liability that was to keep their mouths shut and their husband serviced.

Dove, the information presented here is creditable. Most of us here are long time posters. Most of us have never wavered in our stories. Most of us have met other posters here so we know that we are *real*. Most of our accounts of abuses and the teachings used to justify the outragious treatment have been substantiated by multiple personal first hand accounts of people who endured the same treatment. Dove, we are telling what happened to us. You cannot possibly be an authority on what we were taught, what we endured, what we were told to shut us up and make us submit. You weren`t a woman, you weren`t corpes, you weren`t a wow....For heavens sake, O don`t think that you ever even left your home state. How in the WORLD could you possibly by any wildest stretch of the imagination be an authority on ministry matters??? You mentioned John T-wnsend ...guess what friend???...He and Na were MY lc`s too!...You know what?? They were the ones who insisted that God required that I abort my child because of my prior commitment to going into the way corpes at the end of the wow year....I don`t suppose that that ever happened either because you weren`t sitting in the limb office during the multiple high pressured *counceling* sessions. Dove be honest for once please...YOU weren`t there in that limb office...YOU weren`t at the womens advances...YOU weren`t at the private marriage counceling sessions....The only one voicing rediculously unsubstantiated opinions here is YOU!! Fancy that...

Wow...great analogy Jeff`S. Our knowledge aquired, is nothing if it is not accompanied with love...it is just so much noise. To me...that is what separates the genuine Christian from the wannabees

Awww ((((Jeff)))) Thank you for that. I am ok, this had gone on for a very long time. I do not write well enough for the compassion that I feel to be communicated. I guess that I come across harsh and judgemental...not as I intend at all. I don`t think that it is me personally that Dove dislikes, but my experiences and the pov gained from them. They present a side of twi and the damaging aspects of some of it`s doctrines that is uncomfortable to contemplate. Even if you and I were never to see eye to eye doctrinally or in our individual perspectives....I could never doubt the love of God that seems to live and abide in your heart Jeff. I respect that, and because of that can *hear* what you have to say. Please keep shining that love.

My personal experiences ... are not my opinions. They are a fact for me. They happened, that moves them out of the realm of personal opinion, and inot the catagory of factual occurance. For you Dove, to place them in the catagory of *opinion* means that they didn`t happen. My personal integrity is important, my moral character is important. Your accusations of a lack of truthfullness, or that I have an agenda, or that I have an axe to grind is offensive to me personally. Do you understand Dove? Do you see what your religion permits you to do? You are able to make excuses for why it is ok to slander someones character and reputation, to further the hurt inflicted by the cruel treatment endured in twi....simply to shut them up because their experiences and their view point aquired makes it uncomfortable for you to maintian your perception of twi :( I repeat ...Dove, what you do hurts...Do you think that this lines up with God`s instruction to love?

WHAT ax do I have to grind Dove?? What??? You say that...but I have no ax, no agenda....I talk about what happened to me...try to figure out why...how...where was God....how do I stop it from happening to me ever again, how do I teach my children not to be vulnerable... It seems to offend you deeply that I reiterate my personal experiences in twi. You use that as an excuse to be mean, sarcastic, call me a liar...How many times have led witch hunts where you and your bud`s called me a liar, mentally unstable, a whining perpetual victim....one time you cheered as a psycho poster proclaimed that I was a threat to my children and family.... You have treated me horribly because my treatment does not line up with what you want to believe. Dove...you read sarcasm where there is none...you read lies where there are none...you use these excuses to treat live flesh and blood breathing souls who love God as much as you do ...who have seen his incredible grace and love abound in their lives...and yet contrary to hhis message to us...you treat us like lying scum. Dove...what you do hurts. Yet it is your teaching and beliefs aquired in twi that allows you to continue to do this with enthusiasm...and lead others also. Again, we are flesh and blood people here, loved just as yourself. I relate my experiences because they are mine...for you to call into question my veracity, or to attribute motives such as axe to grind or mental instability or liar or whatever other flavor you come up with this week hurts. Examine your heart Dove, I hear that you really are a nice guy....see if you think that what you do lines up with our instructions as Christians...if what you do here is how we are supposed to treat one another. Look at what you do in the name of your religion....and ask yourself if that lines up with our instructions to love God and love our neighbor? Dove,

Dove, Couples advances were very different than the womens advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly. You say that only here at grease spot have you read of people portraying a different image of the twi than you personally viewed. Could it be that God is introducing you to a whole different set of people with different experiences than you have had prior contact with? Could it be he is working in people to present a different side of the story? A different pov that gives a more complete picture of what happened in twi and why? Could it be an opportunity to be moved by compassion for those who suffered...rather than further recriminations and nastiness? Dove, I am as real as any other person that you have talked to. No we have not met in the flesh...but we have spoken on the phone. We know and love the same people. They would be more than willing to vouch for my veracity , IF< IF< IF, if you REALLY cared. The thing is...you don`t WANT what I say to be true...it is too damaging to your beliefs. You have to then some how invalidate what I say in order to live with your perceptions...in order to hold to your current belief....I have to be invalidated...I am a liar or I exaggerate or it never happened. Do you know that God probably cares JUST as much for me as he does those that you talk to in the flesh? That he works in my life? How do you think it makes folks feel when you call us liars? When you insist that our accounts never happened? It sucks Dove, yet somehow you seem to think because I am typing words with my fingers instead of speaking them out of my mouth in a face to face situation....that it is ok to be mean....to lead the gang banging. Your words whether typed or spoken hurt, yet by the doctrine that you hold as truth....these actions are ok and justifiable. Love God and love your neighbor friend, if what you do is not lining up with that then it is time to examine ourselves as Christians :(

Bumpy, This is life we are talking about...life made heartbreakingly difficult by having to adhere to these assinine teachings and rediculous standards....These burdens and abuse laid on our shoulders to bear silently and without protest if we desired to be in the center of God`s will. This stuff was real, it was painfull and you want to minimalize it with flippant remarks about how was the sex??? Fella, I don`t understand you. God and the scriptures were the tools used to place us into bondage. They were the tools utilized to ensure compliance against ones will and better judgement. I think this was an outrage ....certainly not a joking matter.

Welcome Nathan :) Glad that you are here. Thanks for sharing your heart, and I agree...lol we ARE wonderfull, Thanks! I just hope that you still think so if some of our opinions and experiences in twi were different than yours. Cathy

Nero, I don`t think any documentation, or number of personal accounts or testimoney would ever be good enough because it distorts that which folks desire to believe. If my personal experience is contrary to how one wishes to percieve twi, I must be a liar....or exaggerated...or misunderstood, or deserved it.....etc Sorry guys, life in twi really sucked for a lot of people....women and kids definately had no recourse.

Dove, that was kind of ugly. I was taught this during different womens advances in different states. Some of this was covered during pre marriage counceling with our lc. I do not know if the teachings were more intense because I was marrying corpes and was only app myself....that I took it more seriously because of that. I know that my spouse was under tremendous pressure to *keep me in line* so to speak...because in marrying me...he was putting his reputation on the line. Not that he cared....I was the one terrified of bringing him shame, of reflecting badly on his spirituality. I never wanted him to be sorry that he chose me instead of a corpes woman.\ Now Dove, think about it....you not being a woman, and not being corpes, is it really any suprise that you wouldn`t be aware of what was taught at womens advances or in one on one private marriage sessions between individual couples and lc`s....or when a woman was being groomed to be a corpes man`s wife....??? It would be tempting to dismiss my account as exaggerated or as an isolated instance....except there seems to be others here who were held to the same rediculous standard. Please don`t close your ears and heart to the horror that this standard created for women who were required to submit to horrible abuse with no recourse because we were taught that God gave that man ultimate and total authority over every decision in our lives. To leave....for any reason would be to lose God`s hand of protection and blessing over ourselves and our children. Most of us could not face life without God. Funny enough....it was this teaching....it was this standard that kept me at mark`s side when exiting twi....I was bitterly disapointed and angry that he would leave the ministry that taught us God`s word, and had I thought that there was any way for me to leave him and remain in God`s will, I would have done it in a heart beat and stayed with the ministry.

Absolutely, Potato... We were taught that we could indulge in most any behavior because this was the grace administration, that anybody who couldn`t handle it, just wasn`t spiritual enough.... There were excuses for ignoring every rule laid down for Christians... There were excuses for why our leaders didn`t manifest the fruit of the spirit... There were excuses why it wasn`t necessary for us to follow the instructions given in scripture. I think that this creates a real problem. If you don`t believe that you are wrong...rarely are you going to make the necessary adjustments required. We remain arrogant, entrenched in the mindset and behavior that continues to cause pain and hardship for others.

I too am grieved, btw.... I am grieved for our lost youth and innocence. I am grieved for the time and money that was taken and used to support evil men who visciously harmed my innocent young sisters and brothers.... I am grieved for the hardness of heart, for the arrogance and condescending behavior that we learned.... I am grieved for my sisters who were raped, my brothers who lost their families, my friends who lost their health...the babies that were aborted to hide the duirty little secrets.... I am grieved for the good that might have been accomplished in this world on God`s behalf, had not our millions of hours of service, our hundreds of millions of dollars donated, our billions of hours of heartfelt prayers been towards a worthier cause.... Yup, I am grieved too.